EMOTIVA Amps - Power Rating Discussion - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

RichAndy -- Good NEWS.. I ran MonoPrice Interconnects which were Dig. Coaxial Audio Cbls. 3' long w/ RG-6U, 75 Ohm and they seem to be great. The first thing I noticed was the "PUNCH", and the "FRONT SOUNDSTAGE OPENED WAY UP" -- vs. the Denon trying to do the Heavy Lifting...
NO HUM, NO NOISE that I can hear at all from the EMO, and the EMO is running so COOL hard to believe, but it is heavily heat sinked. Running UnBalanced here at 3' Interconnects.

Total improvement in SQ as far as I am concerned. I have my DynVOL = OFF, and my DynEQ = ON, and Fronts at 40Hz. and CC/SL/SR at 60Hz. since those are my Klipsch Xovers. LFE Only, not LFE+Main set to 120Hz, and ALL spkrs. set to SMALL.

Overall, very impressed so far also, but more source testing and re-running Audyssey required again here to dial it in more so.

Hopefully it works out well for you. I just added a second Emo Ultra-10 sub to my setup. Very hard to evaluate. It did not smooth out the in room response as much as I hoped (tested via test tones). Admittedly, I am quite limited for placement unless I want to start tripping over it

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:32 PM
 
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The point for some of us is truth in advertising. The defense offered is that manufacturers stretch the truth, everybody does it. And that would be okay with me except for one thing. Emotiva says that they hold themselves to a higher standard than receiver companies:

Quote:


The vast majority of receivers rated at 125, 130, or even 150 watts per channel are promising you output power, but they can't really deliver it. There's a lot of small print on those spec. sheets. Take a closer look and you'll see what we mean. It's not continuous power with all channels driven; that's the way we state it. Simple. Honest. Real. Most receivers are straining to hold it together when asked to deliver the goods. Confused about what 125 watts per channel of real power really means? When done right, it's a lot of power!
...(different product page)
POWER RATINGS:
We don't play games when testing our amps. We want to know what they're capable of, and deliver as accurate a wattage rating as possible. We use state of the art Audio Precision© gear, widely accepted as an industry standard. They are tested at full throttle, with all channels being driven as hard as possible. This brings the power supply to it's weakest point, and that's where the output is rated. This rating is the MINIMUM output.

For example - the XPA-5 is rated at 200 watts per channel (8 ohms). This means that when it was tested, with all five channels running at once and being driven to its limits, it was able to produce 200 watts per channel without clipping. That's it's lowest wattage output. This is not a 'peak' rating, but rather, a 'conintuous' rating. The XPA-5 can comfortably produce 1,000 watts RMS.

When they put it that way, IMO they do not meet their own standards.

They make good products, no doubt, but there is no free lunch. Their amps have smaller power supplies, smaller caps, fewer output devices than other manufacturers like Parasound and Outlaw Audio.

Perhaps they will do better with their new line, the XPR.
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Old 02-19-2011, 10:50 PM
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As mentioned above they claim they CAN manage continuous power for 10 minutes. Audioholics could not even meet their rated power with a sweep on the UPA-7. A big difference in claimed performance vs. actual?

The million dollar question as related to this whole post, is why? Are they mistaken, or under their certain conditions they can manage rated power for 10 minutes? Note that Lonnie quoted a spec which said the THD was 1% (IIRC.) Is it possible they manage their rated power at their specified THD with a sweep. Yes, I suspect they are not misrepresenting that. Is it possible they could manage rated power for 10 minutes at the 1% THD Lonnie mentioned in that post I quoted? Also possible.

I don't know that will we ever get a complete answer.

Hopefully, all this verbal exchange will let buyers make an informed choice on an Emo purchase.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:22 AM
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I've been following this thread starting on the day I actually received my Emotiva XPA-5. The summary of this thread seems that we need a 3rd party verification of the output claims and then, everyone can actually make the informed choice. Until then, it is speculation (which seems good so far) and opinions on how people like/enjoy the product.

I've only done a marginal listening test because I'm still waiting on my new pre/pro. From what I've listened to so far, I'm noticing a cleaner sound at the louder volumes that I occasionally listen at. With my previous receiver (Onkyo TX-SR608), the sound would start to break up and sound stressed when I pushed the volume up high. Now I can go louder without hearing distortion, which is what I wanted. In between at the lower volumes, I can't say I hear a difference (or know that I will be able to hear a difference). I'm assuming any difference I hear will be the difference between the Onkyo SR608 and the new Marantz AV7005 that I'm waiting to get.

I'm expecting I will enjoy my XPA-5 from Emotiva and maybe some day I'll read independent reviews that either validate the power and output capabilities, or I'll be an Emotiva owner who paid for a 5 x 200W but didn't get the amount of output I was expecting. I thought I had made an informed decision after reading dozens of personal reviews and general positive impressions of their products. I can only read/research for so long before I actually need to try for myself. In the end, I'll settle and put my mind at ease based on how happy I am with the end result of my home theater and music environment. If some day it is ever revealed that this XPA-5 product does not live up to their claims, they'll either have to correct their claims and make good with the communities or face a loss of sales due to fallout. I'll also take into consideration how they handle the situation if I'm ever to consider future products from them (all hypothetical, since so far I have no issue). I suspect the majority of their sales come from forum based communication and personal feedback from individuals mush like the people in this thread. If the community of people get annoyed or feel like they got shafted due to false claims, they'll lose business. I'm hoping that for their own sake the 5x 200W is no more than 10-15% off and then they correct their product specs and advertising as-needed.
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:01 AM
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I don't think you will ever learn anything which will make you feel ripped off...

The reason, supposedly, that THX uses burst testing to test, is because you never need equal power to all channels at the same time. Which is why Gene over at Audioholics felt the need to write an article to convince you that an all channels driven measurement is not important.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-20-2011, 04:40 AM
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I read the entire thread and before I received my XPA-5, I was concerned if I made a mistake in ordering it. Like most, I searched the web trying to find a technical review like the UPA-7 or ZPA-2, but came up short. As my anxious wait continue, Fedex messed up the delivery and rescheduled for the next day. I asked myself, is this an omen? I then had the option to refuse delivery and not be the wiser if this device will perform as stated. When I read about EMO using misleading advertising, several questions came to mind, but then I realized if this unit meets the FTC requirements then maybe it is not. Now, bear in mind that most if not all companies do mislead when they advertised their products. In the economy as it is, every company want to sell, no matter what they do, so they will play with words that connote something else. Let's take my Onkyo 3008, it is rated as 140watts per channels. Will I get that? No, as that measurements, as far I know, is only rated for two channels, when you look at the specs for seven channels, you see that it reduces drastically, somewhere in the middle forties. All AVR manufacturers advertised their power that way, it this accurate? The question I asked myself is, if this unit can output 200 watts per channel, will I use it all? Not at all, I barely use a quarter of that, but it is nice to know that I have the power when needed, along with a greater headroom and dynamic sound that what my AVR can do. I do understand where people are coming from, but unfortunately that is the nature of how the world of business is.
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Old 02-20-2011, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Last time I checked, 30A circuits weren't allowed for general lighting circuits. Are you putting in a 5-, 6-, or 14-30R?

Don't know, the electrician has to figure that out when I rebuild the HT room. I need 30amp circuits to driver the LMS5400s.

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Old 02-20-2011, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

whatever

Interesting that companies like Velodyne post specs that their subs actually deliver on. They haven't lied. Many AV companies don't lie.

Are you sure about that?

I have the 3rd party measurements of the Velodyne SC-1250 amp. they "lied" about the SSF in it, it drops like a rock below 20Hz and the specs didnt exactly match. I still love that amp for the power it gives me but too bad about the internal high pass filter.


Lets just say that I have YET to find ANY amp that measures 'EXACTLY' to the published specs. Also lets understand that being off by 10% is MEANINGLESS in terms of audible differences. I will continue to post that as long as Watts are within a 10-15% tolerance then we should not care.

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Old 02-20-2011, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

OK, Penngray, give us your proven pro audio amp recommendations if you have given up on Emotiva, and why would you recommend those mfg's. and models?

I never gave up on Emotiva. I just do not need their products.

You would have to explain your aplication requirements for any amp to be recommended.

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Old 02-20-2011, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handruin View Post

I've been following this thread starting on the day I actually received my Emotiva XPA-5. The summary of this thread seems that we need a 3rd party verification of the output claims and then, everyone can actually make the informed choice. Until then, it is speculation (which seems good so far) and opinions on how people like/enjoy the product.

I've only done a marginal listening test because I'm still waiting on my new pre/pro. From what I've listened to so far, I'm noticing a cleaner sound at the louder volumes that I occasionally listen at. With my previous receiver (Onkyo TX-SR608), the sound would start to break up and sound stressed when I pushed the volume up high. Now I can go louder without hearing distortion, which is what I wanted. In between at the lower volumes, I can't say I hear a difference (or know that I will be able to hear a difference). I'm assuming any difference I hear will be the difference between the Onkyo SR608 and the new Marantz AV7005 that I'm waiting to get.

I'm expecting I will enjoy my XPA-5 from Emotiva and maybe some day I'll read independent reviews that either validate the power and output capabilities, or I'll be an Emotiva owner who paid for a 5 x 200W but didn't get the amount of output I was expecting. I thought I had made an informed decision after reading dozens of personal reviews and general positive impressions of their products. I can only read/research for so long before I actually need to try for myself. In the end, I'll settle and put my mind at ease based on how happy I am with the end result of my home theater and music environment. If some day it is ever revealed that this XPA-5 product does not live up to their claims, they'll either have to correct their claims and make good with the communities or face a loss of sales due to fallout. I'll also take into consideration how they handle the situation if I'm ever to consider future products from them (all hypothetical, since so far I have no issue). I suspect the majority of their sales come from forum based communication and personal feedback from individuals mush like the people in this thread. If the community of people get annoyed or feel like they got shafted due to false claims, they'll lose business. I'm hoping that for their own sake the 5x 200W is no more than 10-15% off and then they correct their product specs and advertising as-needed.

Well exactly, I also just installed yesterday the Emotiva XPA-5, and so far am very happy with it. Does it meet the numbers that EMO states, NOT PER MY CALCULATIONS HERE, only unless they are OverDriving the Xformer for the 10 Minute test.
But, in a nutshell, I felt the same thing you did, at lower volumes I really did not notice to much of a difference vs. the Denon AVR-3311CI, but above -25db or so, WHEW... the PUNCH was there, and it felt like the EMO Amp was making sure that any BACK EMF off of my Klipsch's was going to be attenuated, and the EMO just PUNCHED through. So far I am a VERY HAPPY Camper, but more testing to do yet. I brought the Denon/EMO up to -5db this AM and it was rockin with NO Distortion that I could hear. After adding this POWER to my setup here, I noticed ALL of the FAST and Higher Freqs. Transients CAME THROUGH in flying colors.

Now sooner or later we will get someone to do an INDEPENDANT BENCH TEST on the EMO XPA-5, which is the Model Really IN QUESTION for their REAL TRUE Power Output w/ a 1200VA Xformer, and a 60,000uF Sec. Cap.

MJHuman -- don't you have the AP tester there? Heck, I hear there only $45K or so, wouldn't break your bank there...
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:11 PM
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I accidently left the money for the AP device in my shirt pocket, and it went through the laundry. The bills looked all wrinkled, so I just threw them out. Take a bit of time to save up that 45k again, sorry

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone posted that the Emo XPA-5 AC input connector on the back of amp has had the Ground Prong removed?

The line, neutral, and ground are all within the AC Supplied Cable, but not on the AMP.

Is this the case on ALL EMO XPA Model (-1, -2, -3, and -5)?

What was EMO's design decision regarding this fact, and I wonder how they get it passed thru Regulatory Codes, UL, etc.?

Chime In, Just Curious ???
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:17 PM
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Yes, it's well known they are not grounded to the ground plug. I don't think they are UL certified but they have met some other certs.

I guess the cabinet is doubled shielded or something like that. The obvious reason to not ground is to avoid numerous complaints from customers about ground loops ( which are usually a problem OUTSIDE the amp - probably saves EMO a lot of time and money?)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I accidently left the money for the AP device in my shirt pocket, and it went through the laundry. The bills looked all wrinkled, so I just threw them out. Take a bit of time to save up that 45k again, sorry

MJS -- oh NO... Today is SUNDAY, no washing here going on...

BTW -- I put my thumb in some Water and then put it vertical in the Air, and I measured 183.654 Watts RMS / Channel into 8 Ohm Air for the XPA-5, with All Channels Driven -- New device and technique, will apply for Patent on it

I really wished GENE at AudioHolics would of set the OPPO aside, and addressed this XPA-5 POWER BENCH TEST ISSUE, as really NOT MANY SEEM TO BELIEVE IT CAN PRODUCE 1KW CONTINUOUSLY, with that Xformer and Sec. Cap!!!

Also, I have yet to hear back from EMO (either Vincent or Lonnie) on this matter.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Yes, it's well known they are not grounded to the ground plug. I don't think they are UL certified but they have met some other certs.

I guess the cabinet is doubled shielded or something like that. The obvious reason to not ground is to avoid numerous complaints from customers about ground loops ( which are usually a problem OUTSIDE the amp - probably saves EMO a lot of time and money?)

I have heard that, Double Shielded on the Enclosure, explain that one, as the only thing eventually tied back to ground is the neutral side, and it would not get back to ground until it reaches the breaker box, right?

Therefore, the entire chassis is FLOATING, and eliminating any Ground Voltage differences (Common-Mode Voltage) between any interconnected devices.

I wonder what CERTS their Amps have Passed, anyone know?
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:32 PM
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Isn't there a CE mark on it? I know the discussion has already occurred before. There was some cert as to it's electrical safety, I thought.

I was always a little fuzzy at how chassis grounds work. I guess as long as the chassis is not carrying a high voltage, it's probably safe. I leave that to electricians to explain.

This is not uncommon, my receiver also lacks a ground connection.

It's a bit more worrisome with the higher rail voltage on my XPA-3. But my Yamaha RX-Z7 uses 70 volt rails...which is definitely sufficient to kill you. I guess I don't worry to much about it, but I was a bit concerned when I first plugged it in.

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Old 02-20-2011, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Isn't there a CE mark on it? I know the discussion has already occurred before. There was some cert as to it's electrical safety, I thought.

I was always a little fuzzy at how chassis grounds work. I guess as long as the chassis is not carrying a high voltage, it's probably safe. I leave that to electricians to explain.

This is not uncommon, my receiver also lacks a ground connection.

It's a bit more worrisome with the higher rail voltage on my XPA-3. But my Yamaha RX-Z7 uses 70 volt rails...which is definitely sufficient to kill you. I guess I don't worry to much about it, but I was a bit concerned when I first plugged it in.

I can not get to the back of the rack now easily to see if it has a CE on it or for that matter anything else.
Maybe someone that has easier access to the Rear of the EMO can chime in here, as to what REG. CERTS are on the Rear of Amp.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:55 PM
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Many components do not have a ground pin. There are isolation standards that must be followed to ensure no (insignificant) leakage current, and plenty of ways to provide said isolation in design. No worries.

Of course, now we can have another argument... Your turn, Monty and the P crew...

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Old 02-20-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Has anyone posted that the Emo XPA-5 AC input connector on the back of amp has had the Ground Prong removed?

The line, neutral, and ground are all within the AC Supplied Cable, but not on the AMP.

Is this the case on ALL EMO XPA Model (-1, -2, -3, and -5)?

What was EMO's design decision regarding this fact, and I wonder how they get it passed thru Regulatory Codes, UL, etc.?

Chime In, Just Curious ???

I don't believe that it's required for a device to be equipped with an equipment ground, depending on intended use and construction method.

The Marantz AV7005 I bought not long ago is the same, no ground prong in the power inlet connector, as are the two Paradigm Servo 15 subs I have, the recently-arrived Emo XDA-1, and my old Anthem AVM 20.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:22 PM
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The CE sign just constitutes a self certification process by the manufacturer.
It usually has not been certified outside by an independent institution. As long as nobody files a claim nothing will be done in this respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

I can not get to the back of the rack now easily to see if it has a CE on it or for that matter anything else.
Maybe someone that has easier access to the Rear of the EMO can chime in here, as to what REG. CERTS are on the Rear of Amp.

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Old 02-20-2011, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

The CE sign just constitutes a self certification process by the manufacturer.

True, but there are standards (or regulations??) behind the CE certification the mfg. is supposed to be going by.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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AMP Comparison -- EMO vs. Parasound

EMOTIVA XPA-5 (5 CH. ALL DRIVEN)

1,000 W RMS Total Output
Weight= 66#
120Vac at 1800W Max Input (Shown on Back Panel)
1200VA Xformer
Price = $899 Delivered

15.15 Watts per Pound
$0.899 per Watt

PARASOUND 5250v2 (5 CH. ALL DRIVEN)

1250 W RMS Total Output
Weight= 69#
2 x 1.15KVA Xformers or 2.3KVA
Price = $2850 MSRP

18.11 Watts per Pound
$2.28 per Watt

SO, WATTS This Supposed to MEAN (WTF?)?

Parasound is 4.55% Heavier than EMO, but yields 25% More Power! The difference in weight has to be the Xformers of the Parasound, and Sec. Caps.

I wonder if you could tell the difference in Power and/or SQ between these two amps???
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

AMP Comparison -- EMO vs. Parasound

EMOTIVA XPA-5 (5 CH. ALL DRIVEN)

1,000 W RMS Total Output
Weight= 66#
120Vac at 1800W Max Input (Shown on Back Panel)
1200VA Xformer
Price = $899 Delivered

15.15 Watts per Pound
$0.899 per Watt

PARASOUND 5250v2 (5 CH. ALL DRIVEN)

1250 W RMS Total Output
Weight= 69#
2 x 1.15KVA Xformers or 2.3KVA
Price = $2850 MSRP

18.11 Watts per Pound
$2.28 per Watt

SO, WATTS This Supposed to MEAN (WTF?)?

Parasound is 4.55% Heavier than EMO, but yields 25% More Power! The difference in weight has to be the Xformers of the Parasound, and Sec. Caps.

I wonder if you could tell the difference in Power and/or SQ between these two amps???

The weight difference can be many things, including the size/dimensions, the thickness of the metal and heatsinks, or the other things you mentioned. I don't think it means anything. I believe there are more factors at play here than just the raw numbers posted on the outside of the box. Much like you can see two different car manufacturers that have similarly sized engines (displacement and cylinder count), yet they have different power outputs and fuel consumption. They don't always list why one engine is more efficient or more powerful, that's part of their research/recipe.

You can probably buy both amplifiers and compare them to determine the difference (if any) in SQ and power. Emo will give you 30 days, but I don't know about Parasound. your local hi-fi place may give you some demo time. If you can't tell the difference, buy the one that costs less and has a decent warranty. if the Parasound does sound better and more powerful, is the difference worth the cost? In theory, I could buy three XP5-A amplifiers at the same cost and bi-amp all my speakers and have an extra one in the closet in case of a failure. :-)
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:20 AM
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You can't directly correlate weight to power. Many variables -

Construction
Cabinet size (bigger probably heavier)
Transformers are not made alike
Limiter circuitry is probably in place in both amps, which is going to affect how power is limited

Not sure why you are comparing oranges to apples, Dem? I don't see what you are going to learn here, except that the, perhaps, Emo can make cheaper amps than Parasound when just comparing cost to watts.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:41 AM
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Well if you "could" hear a difference, you can grab yourself 10K in the process with the golden ear prize. But no one has done it yet and probably never will. That has to say something to the people who swear there are "night and day" differences.

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Old 02-21-2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Just cruising View Post

No, not really so much an opinion as much as fact. There have been many golden ear ABX test and all have conclusively show that no one can distinguish between two different amps when level is matched and both amps have a ruler flat response band operating within their power band. However, I am not sure why you would conclude from that there would only be one amp manufacturer. Obviously more power gets one more volume. Quality of build and appearances, price, warranty, ability to drive low impedance loads etc. does make for market targets that by all means do create the need for different manufacturers and designs. My point is unless you are driving you amp to clipping or requiring it to drive loads that are outside of its design criteria you will not hear a difference. If you research this you will find many articles and test result that supports this. You basically will find none on the other side of that debate.

Well, you are in dialogue with one on the other side of the debate! I can't comment on this "golden ear test" you reference. I can however comment on my listening environment and the equipment I have had in it over the years. I can also state without hesitation I do hear differences in amps plugged in this system. I am not referencing power differences but I am stating sonic differences. Every amp I have owned (Krell, OCM/Belles, Coda, Kinergetics, B&K and Emotiva) have all had sonic signatures in my system. Some accentuate extended, well controlled bass. Some have very detailed midrange clarity. The best I have owned are able to do all of these very well. I count the XPA-1 in this class.

You can believe what you will regarding, there is no sonic difference in amps. I go back to my earlier comment that if that were the case there would be no need for other brands. The only exception would be for power and impedance demands.

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Old 02-21-2011, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

So, you assuredly speak for all audio enthusiasts who have purchased Emotiva amps, is that correct? Sorry, I know that is a bit glib.



My original statement is indeed conjecture, but I stand by it. Imagine that Emotiva priced its XPA & UPA series along the lines of competing amps from Anthem, Bryston, Parasound, etc., how many would still buy Emotiva? Strong anecdotal evidence indicates that price is the primary driver for most Emotiva customers. If not for Emotiva, they would likely buy amps on the used market or stick to internal amplification w/in AVRs.

AJ

I speak for no one but myself.

Thanks for admitting it. As I mentioned we all have opinions. Sure price is always a driver. I could have owned all the brands you mentioned and I purchased the Emotiva. So there is one and I don't feel I am alone. I appreciate that Emotiva offers a value product that also has performance well beyond it's price point. Kudos to Emotiva!

My only complaint with Emotiva is their chassis construction and use of thin metals to make up the cover and supporting metal pieces. I know they did this for cost savings but, for me, I would gladly pay more for better quality here.

BTW, have you heard an Emotiva amp in your audio system? If not, it makes your argument less informed.

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Old 02-21-2011, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by xianthax View Post

No there are not "vast differences in 'sonic signatures' " if the amp meets a certain set of characteristics then it meets those characteristics. The topology is irrelevant.

Are there strengths and weaknesses for each topology? Yes absolutely. But measurements below known audible thresholds are all that matters, and that can be achieved with several topologies for any given application.

My experience is I stand by the quote you have referenced. I have had various designs using the differing classes.

I can't argue against "that can be achieved with several topologies for any given application" but maybe they haven't been able to achieve it yet.

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Old 02-21-2011, 06:07 PM
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True, but there are standards (or regulations??) behind the CE certification the mfg. is supposed to be going by.

They are regulations but the CE mark is only a requirement in the EU and even then only certain countries really require it. There may be a couple countries outside the EU that recognize it now as well.

UL Listing isn't a requirement, all that is required by the national electrical code is that the local jurisdiction (your electrical inspector) approves of the use of a device and that its demonstrated to him that the device is safe, a UL listing has become the industry standard body for issuing such safety certifications. This aspect generally only applies to fixed devices, things that are permanently installed.

Thats not the end of it though, you may want to read your home owners insurance policy. If your house burned down and it was traced to a non-UL approved device you may not get your payout.

UL listing is also required many times by various groups for legal reasons as a "cover your ass" label. If your device electrocuted someone and it wasn't UL listed your more open for legal action since you don't have third party evidence of reasonable action to ensure the safety of the product. Installing a non-UL listed device in your nightclub for instance could get you in a lot of trouble with your insurance company, your landlord, your investors, etc. Of course that assumes those parties did their homework and structured their legal documents to cover their own asses.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:45 PM
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They are regulations but the CE mark is only a requirement in the EU and even then only certain countries really require it. There may be a couple countries outside the EU that recognize it now as well.

UL Listing isn't a requirement, all that is required by the national electrical code is that the local jurisdiction (your electrical inspector) approves of the use of a device and that its demonstrated to him that the device is safe, a UL listing has become the industry standard body for issuing such safety certifications. This aspect generally only applies to fixed devices, things that are permanently installed.

Thats not the end of it though, you may want to read your home owners insurance policy. If your house burned down and it was traced to a non-UL approved device you may not get your payout.

UL listing is also required many times by various groups for legal reasons as a "cover your ass" label. If your device electrocuted someone and it wasn't UL listed your more open for legal action since you don't have third party evidence of reasonable action to ensure the safety of the product. Installing a non-UL listed device in your nightclub for instance could get you in a lot of trouble with your insurance company, your landlord, your investors, etc. Of course that assumes those parties did their homework and structured their legal documents to cover their own asses.

I've been meaning to post something similar but am glad xianthax did it so well.
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