Crossover frequency question.. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 02-17-2011, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok the Energy CF-50 left and rights arrived soon to go with a Energy CC-10 and my surrounds are take 5 classics. My receiver is an Onkyo SR508 and only has one universal crossover frequency..... What would be the best one to set it too 80hz? 60hz? Do that many low frequencies go on an average sound track for the surround speakers? Would it be better to leave it at 60 80 or find new surrounds? Are there speakers in the Energy line new or used that are cheap and bookshelf size capable of 60hz? Also I don't want to necessarily purchase new surround speakers unless that is my only option.....

Thanks,
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post #2 of 15 Old 02-17-2011, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manpoole View Post

Ok the Energy CF-50 left and rights arrived soon to go with a Energy CC-10 and my surrounds are take 5 classics. My receiver is an Onkyo SR508 and only has one universal crossover frequency..... What would be the best one to set it too 80hz? 60hz? Do that many low frequencies go on an average sound track for the surround speakers? Would it be better to leave it at 60 80 or find new surrounds? Are there speakers in the Energy line new or used that are cheap and bookshelf size capable of 60hz? Also I don't want to necessarily purchase new surround speakers unless that is my only option.....

Thanks,

I did not look up your speaker specs. 80hz is a good general setting though. You could always try other settings to see how they sound.

I generally just use 80hz to avoid loading the speakers with too low of bass. 40hz is probably too low. 100hz, if you have that option should only be used if your speakers can't go low enough.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #3 of 15 Old 02-17-2011, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I realize 80hz is good the fronts can handle 60hz well the the center 60-70 hz the satellites are recommended a crossover of 100hz to 120hz....

Would setting the only crossover the receiver has to 80hz be to much on the surround satellites? Or is not much bass played on most surround tracks.... Or would it be necessary to purchase new surround speakers capable of 80hz?

Why this brand new name brand receiver doesnt have separate crossover frequencies loses me...
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post #4 of 15 Old 02-17-2011, 09:54 PM
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I believe many movies have bass in the surround channels. You could just live with the surrounds missing some bass if the 100hz setting does not sound right.

Maybe some other people have better ideas.

I have avoided buying small surround speakers to avoid worrying about their bass response when I set my crossover to 80, so I have not messed around with trying out 100hz as a crossover.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #5 of 15 Old 02-18-2011, 12:12 AM
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80Hz is not that low, not LFE thundering range, it's the lowest note (E) a human bass singer can normally reach and some orchestral instruments can play. From this E to A (110Hz) in the same octave consists of six keys on the piano. I wouldn't want to lose these.

But it is often said frequencies above 80Hz in a sub may be localised and it is deemed undesirable.

A satellite speaker which on spec goes down to 100Hz may go a bit further but at lower levels. In essence having satellite speakers which can't get as far as 80Hz means to compromise somewhere.

As to why this Onkyo doesn't have separate XO settings, it is a budget AVR isn't it?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #6 of 15 Old 02-18-2011, 12:18 PM
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FWIW, I found this posted a long time ago and saved it for reference. Unfortunately, I lost the attribution so I can't properly credit the author of the post. Suffice to say, it isn't me but the information has been useful over the years.

"A little experimentation does not hurt at all, as different people hear things differently. So experiment with few different crossover frequencies (depending on speakers FR range) and keep the one, you like best.

Having said that ideally and for a seamless integration of mains and sub, they should overlap each other by one full octave. As you know the crossover is not something where main speaker will stop at 80hz and sub will take over from 79.999hz. The mains will still get contents below crossover frequency and sub will also get some contents above crossover frequency. So your main speakers should be flat (+/- 3dB) for a full octave below crossover and sub should be flat for a full octave above crossover frequency. In this example, if crossover is set at 80hz, main speakers should be flat up to 40hz and sub should be flat up to 160hz. This way any spill over content, will still be reproduced with good amount of accuracy by either or both mains/sub.

The receivers which allow you crossover setting for individual channels, you have more flexibility, but for receiver which have just one crossover frequency for all channels - it is a good idea to take the smallest speaker in your setup and set crossover keeping its FR in mind. Not doing so will result in loosing the contents, which are sent to those speakers below the crossover frequency."
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post #7 of 15 Old 02-18-2011, 12:22 PM
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Overlapping by an octave was sort of what I thought made sense when I thought about this before...

That suggests that losing some bass when using 80 hz crossovers could be pretty common. A lot of bookshelf/sats are not flat down to 40hz.

I spent more than I had planned when I bought my B&W 600 speakers. I went with their bigger bookshelf speaker as I wanted more assurance I was not losing anything being sent to it by the receiver.

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post #8 of 15 Old 02-18-2011, 12:40 PM
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A good test to see if your surrounds can handle dynamics and bass is the Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen intro sequence. There is a section that has a lot of surround effects loaded with bass that may prove a bit too much if your crossover is a little too low on your surrounds.
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post #9 of 15 Old 02-18-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsurd2 View Post

FWIW, I found this posted a long time ago and saved it for reference. Unfortunately, I lost the attribution so I can't properly credit the author of the post. Suffice to say, it isn't me but the information has been useful over the years.

"A little experimentation does not hurt at all, as different people hear things differently. So experiment with few different crossover frequencies (depending on speakers FR range) and keep the one, you like best.

Having said that ideally and for a seamless integration of mains and sub, they should overlap each other by one full octave. As you know the crossover is not something where main speaker will stop at 80hz and sub will take over from 79.999hz. The mains will still get contents below crossover frequency and sub will also get some contents above crossover frequency. So your main speakers should be flat (+/- 3dB) for a full octave below crossover and sub should be flat for a full octave above crossover frequency. In this example, if crossover is set at 80hz, main speakers should be flat up to 40hz and sub should be flat up to 160hz. This way any spill over content, will still be reproduced with good amount of accuracy by either or both mains/sub.

The receivers which allow you crossover setting for individual channels, you have more flexibility, but for receiver which have just one crossover frequency for all channels - it is a good idea to take the smallest speaker in your setup and set crossover keeping its FR in mind. Not doing so will result in loosing the contents, which are sent to those speakers below the crossover frequency."

That was good and useful information. Thanks for posting this. I have filed this one anyway.
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post #10 of 15 Old 02-18-2011, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsurd2 View Post

"Having said that ideally and for a seamless integration of mains and sub, they should overlap each other by one full octave...In this example, if crossover is set at 80hz, main speakers should be flat up to 40hz and sub should be flat up to 160hz."
It's not a hard and fast rule. Half or two thirds of an octave each way around the XO frequency, like 60-120Hz spanning one octave should do. It's a bit unrealistic for small bookshelf/satellite speakers to reach down to 40Hz or even 60Hz.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #11 of 15 Old 02-19-2011, 07:17 PM
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^You're right and the original author acknowledged that when he said: "A little experimentation does not hurt at all, as different people hear things differently. So experiment with few different crossover frequencies (depending on speakers FR range) and keep the one, you like best."

I also agree that "It's a bit unrealistic for small bookshelf/satellite speakers to reach down to 40Hz or even 60Hz." That observation seems to reinforce the original author's comment about experimentation. It suggests that there's nothing wrong with setting the crossover frequency higher in the case of small speakers. JMO
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post #12 of 15 Old 02-19-2011, 08:11 PM
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Keep in mind..
That the X-over frequency points are @ -3dB and most of the AVRs use the 12dB/Octave slope..

Just my $0.02..
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post #13 of 15 Old 02-19-2011, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Keep in mind..
That the X-over frequency points are @ -3dB and most of the AVRs use the 12dB/Octave slope..

Just my $0.02..

I was also thinking that the x-over point was 3 dB down. I just could not remember where I learned it.

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post #14 of 15 Old 02-20-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I was also thinking that the x-over point was 3 dB down. I just could not remember where I learned it.

The best explanation about bass management is in the Dolby License manual..
It is a widely misunderstood subject...
Interesting to note that its primary design actually came from THX..

Just my $0.02...
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post #15 of 15 Old 02-20-2011, 05:58 PM
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If XO is -3dB presumably room correction if applied would bring it back to 0dB?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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