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post #31 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

MJPearce -- how do you look at Front Main speakers toe-in. Did you just use a Vector from the Centerline of the front mains to the Main Listening Position in so that the main listener is On-Axis with the Mains?
If so, do you think that also helped there?

I first went with what Paradigm recommends which was have them coming to a point behind the main listening position. I've played with the toe-in so many times I've probably tried every angle. I think mine sound best with the tweeter pointing at my shoulder or the edge of my recliner. It made the soundstage not sound as wide when they were pointed straight at me.
I also experiment with the distance between the speakers quite a bit. I've found that 2 channel stereo sounds better with the speakers farter apart but I think home theater sounds better with them closer together. I had to find a good compromise as I listen to music a lot, especially since I got apple TV. I'm not saying that any of things that work for me will work for everybody. It depends on the speakers and the room. Also, make sure you rerun Audyssey after making changes to speaker placement.



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post #32 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

He's right though. Damping factor has been discussed. You might want to pick up Douglas Self's book on amplifier design. Even if you don't have a background in electronics, he discussed some stuff pretty clearly without formulas and circuits.

But there's some good online articles on damping factor. As I recall, when you start factoring in the affect cables have on damping factor, the amplifier damping factor (inverse of output impedance) turns out to be less significant. I think there's an audioholics article on it.

Here's one article on damping factor (not the most concise, but lots of info)

http://sound.westhost.com/impedanc.htm

MJHuman -- If you mean the Reciprocal of Impedance(Z), that is known as Admittance (Y) to be exact, and yes all my years at Stanford in EE were still embedded somewhere here... and before that ME undergraduate, Ughh...
Y=Admittance=1/Z, where Z=Impedance which is defined for exponentials as the ratio of voltage to current, and includes the Capacitance and Inductance within the circuit, as well as the DC Resistive component.

Electrical impedance, or simply impedance, describes a measure of opposition to alternating current (AC). Electrical impedance extends the concept of resistance to AC circuits, describing not only the relative amplitudes of the voltage and current, but also the relative phases. When the circuit is driven with direct current (DC) there is no distinction between impedance and resistance; the latter can be thought of as impedance with zero phase angle, or just simply put a DC Resistance with no impedance, since there is no AC component within the signal.

But since all audio signals are AC in nature, and hopefully have no DC offset component about ground (not a good thing), all resistive, capacitive, and inductive loads have to be considered thoroughly.

Look at it's equivalent in ME Discipline of Vibration Analysis, we use the Logarithmic Decrement to analyze the Damping Factor. Ideally you want designs to be Critically Dampened in so that there is No Overshoot, or for that matter Undershoot, and will take their displacement excursion, and come back to their neutral position as fast as possible without over/under shooting their free state, and no sustained ringing out as a function of time.

All these technical details should be considered by the Designers of our Speakers, Amps, etc. Now, assuming they (the Mfg. designers) have done their Job correctly, what are we adding to the equation -- Ah, a Power Cable, some Interconnect Cables from sources to AVR or Pre/Pro, or from Pre/Pro to Amp, and some Speaker cables.

So in essence, this seems to me one factor of which we should focus on the many issues upon us regarding any degradation in Sound Quality -- Cabling.

Over, your Turn !!
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post #33 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 02:37 PM
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You're right. I meant load impedance divided by source impedance, not load inverse. My brain let me down

Much of that other stuff you say, I am aware of. Not an electrical engineer, but do understand basic electronics

Anyway, the link was the key piece of info there. Elliott explores ramifications of damping factor pretty well. There's also an audioholics article on damping factor that was a good read as memory serves.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #34 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

I first went with what Paradigm recommends which was have them coming to a point behind the main listening position. I've played with the toe-in so many times I've probably tried every angle. I think mine sound best with the tweeter pointing at my shoulder or the edge of my recliner. It made the soundstage not sound as wide when they were pointed straight at me.
I also experiment with the distance between the speakers quite a bit. I've found that 2 channel stereo sounds better with the speakers farter apart but I think home theater sounds better with them closer together. I had to find a good compromise as I listen to music a lot, especially since I got apple TV. I'm not saying that any of things that work for me will work for everybody. It depends on the speakers and the room. Also, make sure you rerun Audyssey after making changes to speaker placement.

MJPearce -- Recliner sounds good to me... Seriously, I have not played around with the Front Mains for Toe-In yet, but will when I get some time here. I would think that when the speakers are not directly pointed at you, or on-axis with the listener, but out to your sides that the soundstage would be wider? If I understand your context that would be the case, to have the speakers out just a little pointing off-axis somewhat to have the presence of a Wider SoundStage, right? Since, my Klipsch's have horns in them, which have a 60deg (Vertical Axis) x 90deg (Horiz. Axis), I should touch basis with Klipsch on this issue and see what they state first and foremost regarding toe-in/out for the Front Mains.
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post #35 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

You're right. I meant load impedance divided by source impedance, not load inverse. My brain let me down

Much of that other stuff you say, I am aware of. Not an electrical engineer, but do understand basic electronics

Anyway, the link was the key piece of info there. Elliott explores ramifications of damping factor pretty well. There's also an audioholics article on damping factor that was a good read as memory serves.

My gut is still telling me here that More Important is the Toe-In/Out, Distance between them, Distance off of rear walls, etc. of the Front Mains for Stereo Sound Quality Enhancements to ourselves the Listener, way beyond the Damping factor at this time, as I'm not sure by even changing cables vs. what the amp/avr/pre-pro/spkrs. have been designed at that we would even notice a difference.

What have you experimented with regarding the Front Main speaker placements, being distance between them, distance away for the walls, toe/in toe/out ... etc.???

I have found that by moving the fronts away from the wall 12" helped considerably in sound imaging, with less bass bouncing off the rear speaker walls. Next, I want to play around with Toe/IN or Toe/OUT angles rotating the fronts about their Vertical Axis'.
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post #36 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 03:36 PM
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I admit that my speakers sit where they do because that's the most convenient location. I have experimented a bit with toe in, as it makes sense to for the speaker to be on-axis with regards to where I sit. But I have not spent a lot of time on it.

Been thinking about bass traps lately, after doing my bass measurements. According to measurement, bass response non linearity is a clearly defined issue in my room. Whether I can implement a liveable solution using bass traps is currently unknown to me.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #37 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Here is an article by Rodd Elliott on factors which could make two amps sound different. It discusses slew rate/TIM a bit.

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

MJH -- looks like some reading here for tonight. Thank you for the URL. Briefed it here, but have not read it yet.

Since we all own Spkrs. and AVR's or Pre/Pro's and Amps as the individual cases may be, what are we adding to our systems that could impact sound quality??

1.) All Cabling -- Owner supplied and/or AC Power Cbl. Mfg. supplied. Details of cabling down to the type of polymer within used for the dielectric... IR drop, EMI/RFI, stranded vs. solid conductors, and on.. and on..

2.) Speaker Placement - in all bi-directional linear planes (xyz), and rotational planes (Ox, Oy, Oz). The one rotational plane we can play with is to rotate the spkr. about it's vertical axis being toe-in/out. The linear planes are self-explanatory. Since we only have SIX degrees of freedom, three linear and three rotational.

3.) Room Dressings - yet to be discussed.

4.) Source producing the Audio -- BD Player, etc. -- yet to be discussed.

Although, just got some new Sennheiser RS180 Wireless headphones, and they sound Excellent off of the LG BD-590 Player streaming in Pandora, and/or Napster at <500KBaud D/L. Ran Monoprice RCA Premium Audio cables, and very happy with them from each source to AVR Audio Inputs, then from the AVR's DVR Out to Senn Xmiter. The Senns use Kleer Uncompressed W/L MSK .. to me very clean, and can go all over the house with no dropout at all.
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post #38 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 03:50 PM
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^^^

2&3... 1&4 are insignificant...

it's all about the speakers and the room...

you need to spend more time experimenting with speaker placement (and perhaps some room treatments), and less time worrying about everything else...

"sq" is 99.9% determined by the speakers, their position in the room and the actual room itself... everything else (assuming basic competent electronics, which start at a pretty low price tag in today's world) isn't worth sweating over...

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post #39 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I admit that my speakers sit where they do because that's the most convenient location. I have experimented a bit with toe in, as it makes sense to for the speaker to be on-axis with regards to where I sit. But I have not spent a lot of time on it.

Been thinking about bass traps lately, after doing my bass measurements. According to measurement, bass response non linearity is a clearly defined issue in my room. Whether I can implement a liveable solution using bass traps is currently unknown to me.

I know nothing about Bass Traps... explain what they are, as I know here that I want to get better Bass Management for sure.
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post #40 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

2&3... 1&4 are insignificant...

it's all about the speakers and the room...

you need to spend more time experimenting with speaker placement (and perhaps some room treatments), and less time worrying about everything else...

"sq" is 99.9% determined by the speakers, their position in the room and the actual room itself... everything else (assuming basic competent electronics, which start at a pretty low price tag in today's world) isn't worth sweating over...

Mostly TRUE but not 100% as the Source does make a difference here. So to me it's 2,3 and 4 where the effort needs to be spent to improve the sounds.

Example:
DirecTV via HD dish and their IRD into AVR, sounds to me terrible using the Sonic Channels over 800, etc. Even, DirecTV movies in Surround modes aren't as good to me, as is a BluRay DVD ...
For Stereo, the best source here is the Pandora/Napster streaming through the BD Player into AVR that I have found, or a CD in the player recorded at high bit rates (320K).
Vinyl off my Technics suck also to me.

TOTALLY AGREE on Speaker Placement, and have yet to even think of Room Treatments, but have heard that can also makes a big difference.

Here is a great article on 2 Channel Speaker Placement at URL:

http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/2-channel.aspx
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post #41 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

I know nothing about Bass Traps... explain what they are, as I know here that I want to get better Bass Management for sure.

The idea behind them is to reduce the effects of standing waves by damping LF waves. Standing waves are why you can play a single test tone, and walk around your room and hear it get louder and softer as you walk through the peaks and vallies of the standing wave. I just explained about everything I know on the topic, heh

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #42 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 07:56 PM
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I also experiment with the distance between the speakers quite a bit. I've found that 2 channel stereo sounds better with the speakers farter apart but I think home theater sounds better with them closer together.

Freudian slip there!!! I hope the good wife is not around when you're experimenting with farting speakers!!
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post #43 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Emotiva XPA amps have somewhat higher than typical gain. If you do not recalibrate upon inserting the amp into the system, then overall SPL at the same volume setting may increase by several dB, making a quantitative change that could be perceived as a qualitative change. I surmise that this is an ulterior reason why Emotiva opted for a 32 dB gain structure. Emotiva wants AVR owners who buy an amp to definitely hear a difference, even if that difference is slyly nothing more than an uncalibrated level increase.

AJ

That is exactly what I expected when I hooked up an XPA-3 to my Denon 3311....but the levels of the speakers were all in balance (to my surprise). I ran through the test tones using a SPL meter and the overall channel levels were the same post power amp to before.
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post #44 of 263 Old 03-01-2011, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveD61 View Post

That is exactly what I expected when I hooked up an XPA-3 to my Denon 3311....but the levels of the speakers were all in balance (to my surprise). I ran through the test tones using a SPL meter and the overall channel levels were the same post power amp to before.

Not surprising. I noticed the same thing. May depend on the receiver though.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #45 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 10:00 AM
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Freudian slip there!!! I hope the good wife is not around when you're experimenting with farting speakers!!

I told them not to eat after midnight but they wont listen.



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post #46 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post
MJPearce -- Recliner sounds good to me... Seriously, I have not played around with the Front Mains for Toe-In yet, but will when I get some time here. I would think that when the speakers are not directly pointed at you, or on-axis with the listener, but out to your sides that the soundstage would be wider? If I understand your context that would be the case, to have the speakers out just a little pointing off-axis somewhat to have the presence of a Wider SoundStage, right? Since, my Klipsch's have horns in them, which have a 60deg (Vertical Axis) x 90deg (Horiz. Axis), I should touch basis with Klipsch on this issue and see what they state first and foremost regarding toe-in/out for the Front Mains.
That's how it worked for me. I'm sure every speaker and room will react differently so it's good to just try it and see. I agree with ccotenj, the speaker's interaction with the room is the most important factor in sound quality. For example, I've had Klipsch reference in my small room and I thought they were too bright when listening to music. When I listened to them in a big room that was had a lot of carpet I thought they sounded amazing. Klipsch makes great speakers but they just don't sound as good in my room. It doesn't matter what amp I get or speaker wire I use. I could have gone with room treatments and it probably would have made a huge difference but I didn't even know what room treatments were back then.



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post #47 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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SPEAKER PLACEMENT INFO --

1. Small speakers should be on stands or a bookshelf so that their tweeters are near your ear level and their backs near to the wall. If they have an air vent on the back, they should be kept at least a few inches from the wall.
2. Tower speakers should be placed about 2’ (or more) from the back wall.
3. Avoid corners. Two exceptions are speakers designed for corners (rare as the albatross) and subwoofers. See our course How to Get the Most From Your Sub for subwoofer placement tips.
4. Avoid left / right symmetry, especially with respect to corners, halls and walls. It’s okay to have your speakers symmetrical with each other, but make sure they’re not exactly symmetrical to the room.

Sound Stage & The Sweet Spot
A worthy pair of speakers can perform an amazing illusion reminiscent of looking through a 3-D ViewMaster™. When correctly placed, a three-dimensional sound stage magically appears between your speakers. Instruments and sounds appear to come from locations where your eyes tell you there’s nothing! This isn’t magic, it’s physics! Making this happen dramatically requires getting many things right – good stereo material, controlling room reflections, good speakers – but most importantly, getting your speakers and listening area set-up properly. Fortunately, this is pretty easy:

1. The listening area needs to be exactly in the center of both speakers. Use a tape measure if you want to get really accurate.
2. The distance between the speakers should be 75% to 100% of the distance that you are from them.
3. You’ll want to keep your speakers at least 2 feet away from walls and the floor (tower speakers are OK on the floor.) Don’t worry too much if this isn’t practical, if you move them closer to the wall, the virtual soundstage will still appear – it just won’t have the same depth.
4. Likewise, you’ll want to keep your listening area more than 2’ from any walls or large reflective objects.
5. It helps to have a room that deals well with sound reflections – sound absorbers like rugs and drapes, sound scatterers like bookcases and “things” all help.
6. Some speakers are better at this than others with smaller speakers often having the advantage.

"By: Professor Humphreys
Speaker Engineer" -- From Aperion Univ.
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post #48 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 11:20 AM
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Sounds like you are quoting a source? If so, I think's it's only fair to identify the source being quoted? (and put it in a quote block)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #49 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
The idea behind them is to reduce the effects of standing waves by damping LF waves. Standing waves are why you can play a single test tone, and walk around your room and hear it get louder and softer as you walk through the peaks and vallies of the standing wave. I just explained about everything I know on the topic, heh
My BASS Management here still needs improvement, to me it still sounds that the lows need more Damping to minimize the sustained ring effects almost overlapping from one low freq to another.
My dual subs are right on the carpet, and I noticed in one video the guy had his subs up off the carpet a couple inches!!
He built some wood sub raisers about a couple inches high, but I have no idea what they were for?

Interesting, my Sennheisers do not have this problem... this has to be a room acoustical issue so it seems to me. I just feel that I want the Subs to be Tighter and not sustain as much, or quicker to come back to Neutral, and not ring out.

Any good info/ideas on Bass Management, besides Gain, Phase (at 0 deg.) for front subs, LFP setting?
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post #50 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
Sounds like you are quoting a source? If so, I think's it's only fair to identify the source being quoted? (and put it in a quote block)
Opps, Brain freeze -- Completed BOSS per your request SIR ..

Per "The Doctor Here - DPS"
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post #51 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
I admit that my speakers sit where they do because that's the most convenient location. I have experimented a bit with toe in, as it makes sense to for the speaker to be on-axis with regards to where I sit. But I have not spent a lot of time on it.

Been thinking about bass traps lately, after doing my bass measurements. According to measurement, bass response non linearity is a clearly defined issue in my room. Whether I can implement a liveable solution using bass traps is currently unknown to me.
On the TOE/IN-OUT issue, am asking KLIPSCH right now, what they understand about this issue... waiting for their reply, and then will post what I know about TOES...
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post #52 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
You're right. I meant load impedance divided by source impedance, not load inverse. My brain let me down

Much of that other stuff you say, I am aware of. Not an electrical engineer, but do understand basic electronics

Anyway, the link was the key piece of info there. Elliott explores ramifications of damping factor pretty well. There's also an audioholics article on damping factor that was a good read as memory serves.
Here are some FACTS... I love my Klipsch Speakers very happy with them, of course would love those P-34f's at $20K each, but other half said NO, LOL...

So, don't want to change speakers, don't want to change the EMO XPA-5 Amp, and so far happy now with the Denon AVR-3311CI now that I have added the Amp, and maybe someday look at the XMC-1 PRO from EMO, and happy streaming in Music via Napster/Pandora -- good quality to me, sure CD's Mastered would be a better source, but not willing to put out that cash for more CD's, when Napster is about $50/Yr.

So in essence seems to me my only variables are:

1.) Upgrade the Source (BD Player - but only Samsung and LG support Napster!!) -- I wish Napster (11+Million Songs) was a STD. on all BD Players!!
2.) Speaker placements -- toes, etc.
3.) Bass Management Issues -- want tighter subs
4.) Room Dressing Enhancements -- hate Drapes as they collect Dust, and I hate to Dust, makes me Sneeze!!
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post #53 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Klipsch has an article on Loudspeaker Placement as a Guide --

Just have to find it here, or does anyone else have it if I can not find it here?
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post #54 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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^^ MJHuman -- let me know if you can see/read that article by Klipsch?

Tks DPS
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post #55 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by generalhead

Did you read this thread yet? It has answers to just about every question in this thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554
DPS - you should really take a look at the thread I linked. It already contains links to articles on much of what your linking.
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post #56 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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DPS - you should really take a look at the thread I linked. It already contains links to articles on much of what your linking.

GeneralHead - great URL looks like a lot of info there, but we are really discussing STEREO MODE (2 Channel) of late here mostly, not all the other issues with HOME THEATER AUDIO, which is even more complex do to all the processing issues, and a lot more channels (5, 7, 9, 11, etc.) in the loop.

Have you read all of that already? By the looks of it, someone could be there for the next 3 years or so, assuming your a Fast Reader!

Where is the URL for all that in STEREO MODE with ONLY TWO Channels, plus Sub(s)...??
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post #57 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 01:43 PM
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Where is the URL for all that in STEREO MODE with ONLY TWO Channels, plus Sub(s)...??

under speaker set-up:

Dolby Speaker and Room Setup

It doesn't look like any of the other links are specific to 2.0 or 2.1, but I really don't think you place your main speakers any differently for a 2.0/2.1 vs a 5.1/7.1 etc.

There's also a ton of links on subwoofer placement.
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post #58 of 263 Old 03-02-2011, 03:11 PM
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1.) Upgrade the Source (BD Player - but only Samsung and LG support Napster!!) -- I wish Napster (11+Million Songs) was a STD. on all BD Players!!
2.) Speaker placements -- toes, etc.
3.) Bass Management Issues -- want tighter subs
4.) Room Dressing Enhancements -- hate Drapes as they collect Dust, and I hate to Dust, makes me Sneeze!!

1) changing to a different bdp won't make any difference...

2) yes.

3) "bass management" isn't going to give you "tighter subs"... "bass management" is the function of applying a crossover to main speakers to route bass to your subwoofer... you are already doing this (i hope)....

4) yes. not drapes. traps. at the minimum, corner bass traps and a couple panels at first reflection points on the sidewalls. carpeting. go from there.

i'll add one...

5) eq. for both the main speakers and the sub.

while you can find many "guides" for speaker placement on the web, there is no substitute for moving them around in your room and listening to them...

at the risk of repeating myself... it's all about the speakers, the room, and the way the speakers interact with the room... it would be wise of you to spend much of your time learning about that "stuff"...

much can be learned in the audio theory section of this forum... also, buy "the master handbook of acoustics"...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


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post #59 of 263 Old 03-03-2011, 05:59 AM
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Here is an article by Klipsch on Loudspeaker Placement Guide -- good read..

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...Y9Q4NwMw&pli=1

Nothing came up when I clicked on the link...Insofar as what Klipsch is going to recommend on your speaker placement, I am guessing they are going to recommend toeing them in towards your listening position. I have all of my speakers aimed at the LP so I can see down the throats of the Horns.
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post #60 of 263 Old 03-03-2011, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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1) changing to a different bdp won't make any difference...

2) yes.

3) "bass management" isn't going to give you "tighter subs"... "bass management" is the function of applying a crossover to main speakers to route bass to your subwoofer... you are already doing this (i hope)....

4) yes. not drapes. traps. at the minimum, corner bass traps and a couple panels at first reflection points on the sidewalls. carpeting. go from there.

i'll add one...

5) eq. for both the main speakers and the sub.

while you can find many "guides" for speaker placement on the web, there is no substitute for moving them around in your room and listening to them...

at the risk of repeating myself... it's all about the speakers, the room, and the way the speakers interact with the room... it would be wise of you to spend much of your time learning about that "stuff"...

much can be learned in the audio theory section of this forum... also, buy "the master handbook of acoustics"...

Number ONE will make a big difference if you want NAPSTER as a source for Audio, as only LG and Samsung have Napster on their BD Players. Have not tried an OPPO BD Player, but I have heard others state that not all BD Players are created equal either.

Number FOUR -- Traps, bring on some info or sites about TRAPS Chris.. Thanks.
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