** OFFICIAL ** -- Sound Quality (SQ) Discussion - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 263 Old 03-03-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post


Number ONE will make a big difference if you want NAPSTER as a source for Audio, as only LG and Samsung have Napster.

Number FOUR -- Traps, bring on some info or sites about TRAPS Chris.. Thanks.

There are over 20 links on room treatments in the 101 thread I linked. Don't be afraid to read a little bit.
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post #62 of 263 Old 03-03-2011, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Number ONE will make a big difference if you want NAPSTER as a source for Audio, as only LG and Samsung have Napster on their BD Players. Have not tried an OPPO BD Player, but I have heard others state that not all BD Players are created equal either.

Number FOUR -- Traps, bring on some info or sites about TRAPS Chris.. Thanks.

i thought the discussion was about "sq", not "features"? sure, if you want napster, you need a device that will stream it...

many people "say" many things... anytime someone tells you something sounds different, ask for test results... "i heard it" isn't a test result...

the previous poster has pointed you in the right direction for room treatments...

- chris

 

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post #63 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i thought the discussion was about "sq", not "features"? sure, if you want napster, you need a device that will stream it...

many people "say" many things... anytime someone tells you something sounds different, ask for test results... "i heard it" isn't a test result...

the previous poster has pointed you in the right direction for room treatments...

Ok, forget about the added on nice apps of Napster, etc. on some of the BD Players. Have you listened to different BD Players like Denon and OPPO to name just a couple and compare it to a Samsung or Sony in Sound Quality?

Some players say they have separate and shielded power supplies for the CD carriage, display, and digital and analog sections to ensure noiseless operation. And others are using Analog Devices 1955 DAC, with 384k oversampling, and 1V RMS (7V peak for extended dynamics) for Electronics within.

Now that is what I am talking about, SQ BD Player details.
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post #64 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by generalhead View Post

There are over 20 links on room treatments in the 101 thread I linked. Don't be afraid to read a little bit.

Knowing you have read those links , what have you implemented there to make improvements re: Room Treatments?
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post #65 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 06:19 AM
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Perhaps you could find info on that in the bluray forums?
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post #66 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by generalhead View Post

There are over 20 links on room treatments in the 101 thread I linked. Don't be afraid to read a little bit.

Read a little bit? What do you think it takes to get a PHD in Engr., not just good looks?

Waiting on you to read it toward your PHD travels, and tell us about what you know?
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post #67 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Read a little bit? What do you think it takes to get a PHD in Engr., not just good looks?

Waiting on you to read it toward your PHD travels, and tell us about what you know?

Sorry, but I have no intention of spoon feeding you when there's a wealth of information at your fingertips should you choose to put forth a little effort.
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post #68 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 12:13 PM
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Just my opinion but the difference amplifiers make is in the area of dynamic range, ie. having headroom and the effortlessness of amps not being overdriven to clipping. I know this is the difference that I found when I bought Emotiva amps and went with active crossovers for my L/C/R and sub speakers. Of course the speakers must be low distortion, operated only in their optimum pass band, and be able to take lots of power. I think the active crossovers also increase SQ, I suppose by having the demands reduced by having the bandwidth demanded of them reduced. Some say that inductors degrade sound, I have no idea if this is true, just know that the SQ I get is much higher with the miniDSPs than it is with passive crossovers.
I'm enjoying my system right now and can think of very little that I could do to improve SQ further.
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post #69 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post
Just my opinion but the difference amplifiers make is in the area of dynamic range, ie. having headroom and the effortlessness of amps not being overdriven to clipping. I know this is the difference that I found when I bought Emotiva amps and went with active crossovers for my L/C/R and sub speakers. Of course the speakers must be low distortion, operated only in their optimum pass band, and be able to take lots of power. I think the active crossovers also increase SQ, I suppose by having the demands reduced by having the bandwidth demanded of them reduced. Some say that inductors degrade sound, I have no idea if this is true, just know that the SQ I get is much higher with the miniDSPs than it is with passive crossovers.
I'm enjoying my system right now and can think of very little that I could do to improve SQ further.
I agree, if by headroom we mean having enough power to not audibly distort.

If you only needed 10 watts and had 100 watts, I don't think the added headroom of having 90 watts would help. Some people seem to feel otherwise...

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #70 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post
Just my opinion but the difference amplifiers make is in the area of dynamic range, ie. having headroom and the effortlessness of amps not being overdriven to clipping. I know this is the difference that I found when I bought Emotiva amps and went with active crossovers for my L/C/R and sub speakers. Of course the speakers must be low distortion, operated only in their optimum pass band, and be able to take lots of power. I think the active crossovers also increase SQ, I suppose by having the demands reduced by having the bandwidth demanded of them reduced. Some say that inductors degrade sound, I have no idea if this is true, just know that the SQ I get is much higher with the miniDSPs than it is with passive crossovers.
I'm enjoying my system right now and can think of very little that I could do to improve SQ further.
^^ Wow, sounds like your a Sound Engineer there.

Maybe you could technically explain with detailed specificity how your miniDSP's work for your Active Crossover Networks for all that are reading this thread since it improved your SQ there.

Improving SQ is always on-going for most Audiophiles, that are into Audio Professionally or just as an Amateur Hobbyist.
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post #71 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
I agree, if by headroom we mean having enough power to not audibly distort.

If you only needed 10 watts and had 100 watts, I don't think the added headroom of having 90 watts would help. Some people seem to feel otherwise...
If you are including your Peak Power requirement in that 10 Watts then I would agree with you, but if not and the Peaks are 10 times the RMS power requirement per Channel, then you will need that 100 Watts ... IMHO.

As they say nice to have a little extra gas in the tank, in case we make a deviation and "CRANK IT ON", but still below Clipping.
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post #72 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post
If you are including your Peak Power requirement in that 10 Watts then I would agree with you, but if not and the Peaks are 10 times the RMS power requirement per Channel, then you will need that 100 Watts ... IMHO.

As they say nice to have a little extra gas in the tank, in case we make a deviation and "CRANK IT ON", but still below Clipping.
To clarify, I meant you needed 10 watts in the most exact sense

I obviously understand that if you needed 10 watts average your peak levels could be much higher.

To take a ridiculous case your real average required power for movies is probably under one watt even at pretty high volumes if you average power over every micro second of the entire movie as there's so much quite space in movies You peak to average power under this thinking is likely over 100 times average. But I am being ridculous as I say. When we discuss average movie levels we are not including the scene where the bank robber is picking a lock and there's no music and dialog.

Heck I know of movies where there's no dialog or music for many minutes at a time.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #73 of 263 Old 03-04-2011, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
To clarify, I meant you needed 10 watts in the most exact sense

I obviously understand that if you needed 10 watts average your peak levels could be much higher.

To take a ridiculous case your real average required power for movies is probably under one watt even at pretty high volumes if you average power over every micro second of the entire movie as there's so much quite space in movies You peak to average power under this thinking is likely over 100 times average. But I am being ridculous as I say. When we discuss average movie levels we are not including the scene where the bank robber is picking a lock and there's no music and dialog.

Heck I know of movies where there's no dialog or music for many minutes at a time.
Yeppers, but when that Snare Drum hits the SNAP, it's a Peak Power reqmt. What you honestly forgot, was the POP from the Popcorn... Oh, that is an ambient sound pressure, not in the Movie, I must of fell asleep. Must of been a boring movie.

I was totally amazed after doing calcs today for SPL and Watts with the Klipsch's here... they require little if any power (< 20W/Ch.), and the Emo XPA-5 handles it all in worst case scenario with 5 driving no problem at all.
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post #74 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

I was totally amazed after doing calcs today for SPL and Watts with the Klipsch's here... they require little if any power (< 20W/Ch.), and the Emo XPA-5 handles it all in worst case scenario with 5 driving no problem at all.

"some of us" aren't... you'll recall (or maybe you won't) that this was brought up when you first bought your amp...

- chris

 

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post #75 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

If you are including your Peak Power requirement in that 10 Watts then I would agree with you, but if not and the Peaks are 10 times the RMS power requirement per Channel, then you will need that 100 Watts ... IMHO.

As they say nice to have a little extra gas in the tank, in case we make a deviation and "CRANK IT ON", but still below Clipping.

I love this one. So my car's power is directly related to how much gas is in the tank.
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post #76 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 05:20 AM
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^^^

yet another car analogy that doesn't work, as yes, your car's "relative power" (for lack of a better term) is effected by how much gas is in the tank (gas=weight=slower), but having "gas in the tank" is in no way relevant to the way the op attempted to use the analogy...

michael, as is generally the case, is correct...

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post #77 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

yet another car analogy that doesn't work, as yes, your car's "relative power" (for lack of a better term) is effected by how much gas is in the tank (gas=weight=slower), but having "gas in the tank" is in no way relevant to the way the op attempted to use the analogy...

michael, as is generally the case, is correct...

Glad you set me straight, I was about to add a bigger tank this weekend to get all that POWER.

Yeah MJH knows his stuff.
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post #78 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 05:34 AM
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^^^

lol! imagine how fast you could go if you welded on a gas tank from a tractor trailer...

michael approaches these things from a rational pov... which generally results in the "correct" answer...

- chris

 

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post #79 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I love this one. So my car's power is directly related to how much gas is in the tank.

No, you got it all wrong there. By having a full gas tank, you have more weight (minus the weight of the $50 bills you just bought gas with), and definitely NEED MO POWER!!

But then when your tank is Full, the distance of your trip will be longer in time, and a lot more enjoyable with all the more sounds. Try it out -- it works
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post #80 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

"some of us" aren't... you'll recall (or maybe you won't) that this was brought up when you first bought your amp...

Man o' Man, you have excellent recall there. Bottom Line give a couple Klipsch's (98db) a little Power with an excellent EMO amp, and crank it on - and then every cubic inch of volume in your room will be "Sonically Improved". For those that have not tried it, as the old saying goes "Try It -- You Might Like It".
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post #81 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

yet another car analogy that doesn't work, as yes, your car's "relative power" (for lack of a better term) is effected by how much gas is in the tank (gas=weight=slower), but having "gas in the tank" is in no way relevant to the way the op attempted to use the analogy...

michael, as is generally the case, is correct...

^^ MJH sometimes gets close. Look at it this way, run the gas out of the tank (Very Little Gas - less weight for sure - like most AVR's today) easy to do today w/ prices, and watch your power go to zero when it's gasping for the last drop as your heading uphill (your Peak Transient), and your acceleration becomes negative, you've clipped and your trip is over. Time to Fill Up the Tank!!
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post #82 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I agree, if by headroom we mean having enough power to not audibly distort.

If you only needed 10 watts and had 100 watts, I don't think the added headroom of having 90 watts would help. Some people seem to feel otherwise...

MJH -- Audio Distortion is also a function of the listener, even though it is measureable with instrumentation. They put 20 people in a room and played different levels of distortion, same tune, and had them answer with Multiple Choices what the Magnitude of Distortion was, and the 20 people were all over the map, some stated 1% while others stated 18%, etc. Now, if you make that sample of listeners Large enough and plot out their answers it will approach the Gaussian Distribution Curve as the Listener Sample Size increases.

For sure we all hate the Crossover Distortion of a Class A/B Amp inherent in the design.

But the point I am making is that the level at which harmonic distortion becomes audible is not straightforward, and varies tremendously and with a high subjectivity factor associated with it.
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post #83 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Just cruising View Post

I love this one. So my car's power is directly related to how much gas is in the tank.

That deviation and Cranking It On was Distance, not Power. You misinterpreted the direct implication within the context.

Shame on you, are you Just Crusin there [Grins]?

But if you wish, you could empty your tank, and then have No Power, but Sole Power [Grins]
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post #84 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

lol! imagine how fast you could go if you welded on a gas tank from a tractor trailer...

michael approaches these things from a rational pov... which generally results in the "correct" answer...

Not to fast with all that extra weight there, Chris...
For sure your going to need some extra power to increase your speed
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post #85 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

That deviation and Cranking It On was Distance, not Power. You misinterpreted the direct implication within the context.

Shame on you, are you Just Crusin there [Grins]?

But if you wish, you could empty your tank, and then have No Power, but Sole Power [Grins]

Den,

You got to be kidding me, how do you relate distance to clipping?
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post #86 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Just cruising View Post

Den,

You got to be kidding me, how do you relate distance to clipping?

Where does it state that distance is clipping? Would you like to borrow my Glasses.. [Grins]

Do you have extra Power there or are you up against the Rail Voltages, and experiencing Clipping? But then again, most don't have any idea if they are clipping, as there are NO visual indicators in most cases, only our Ears and some of those have Major Losses.
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post #87 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 10:38 AM
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I am curious, after running Audyssey where do you listen in relation to "0" on the Main Volume with 5.1 material?
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post #88 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

I just measured my MAINS (FL/FR) Klipsch RF-82II Reference Towers and they are 5" from the back to the Wall.

What speakers do you have for Mains, and why would that make an improvement in SQ?

...Just spoke with Klipsch (Ryan) and he recommended to PULL the RF-82II's Reference Towers for FR/FL out away from the wall measured from the Rear of the Speaker to wall about 10-12". Was able to relocate Front Klipsch's at 11.75" away from wall --

Sound Quality was IMPROVED. Set the Dual Subs to 80 Hz., and the Front Xover on the Denon to 80Hz, after setting the Fronts to SMALL in Denon Setup.

Did you rerun Audyssey after repostioning the speakers? Also, I'm not sure what you did with the dual subs but if you are talking about the Low Pass Filter for the subs it is recommeded to raise that to 120 Hz.
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post #89 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Just cruising View Post

Den,

You got to be kidding me, how do you relate distance to clipping?

Hey Crusin' there, how is your Sound Quality?

What changes did you make that made the biggest SQ changes to your setup there?

Friend came over last night here, and thought this setup sounded Totally Awesome -- I sold him my very old 1995 Yamaha 1070 (no HDMI back then) - it had all that DSP junk for Rock, Jazz, Concert Hall, etc. built into it by Yamaha, that in my opinion was a waste. I was glad to get rid of it, just was collecting dust here.
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post #90 of 263 Old 03-05-2011, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

I am curious, after running Audyssey where do you listen in relation to "0" on the Main Volume with 5.1 material?

Zen, one hell of a lot higher than two channel. Around -12 to -10db for 5.1 DD PLII Cinema, and around -20 to -15db for 2 Channel, but then again when I used to drink it would go to above reference +db for 2.1(2) [[GRINS]].

How about yours?
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