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post #181 of 263 Old 03-09-2011, 09:13 PM
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However, w/ standard 2 Vrms output, typically only 18-20 bits rise above the noise floor, even in the best performing components.

When I first read this I thought this can't be right, most decent systems have an SNR somewhere near 100-110 dB, but when you do the sums 4-6 bits of noise in a 24 bit signal works out about right.

What if the signal is only 16 bits?.....does it still have 4-6 bits of noise or is it less because the graduations between each bit are wider? If it is the same would the SNR of 16 bit sources be lower that 24 bit sources?
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post #182 of 263 Old 03-09-2011, 09:21 PM
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I greatly enjoy Stereophile and particularly appreciate the equipment measurements. But the reviewers, who nearly all (absent Kal) eschew digital room correction, are cutting off their noses, so to speak, in the name of sonic purity.

Are you suggesting correction sofware like Audyysey has no hope of at least improving less than ideal room accoustics?
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post #183 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 04:49 AM
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^^^

nope... exactly the opposite...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #184 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

but if you ever want to hear what your speakers really sound like, drag them outside sometime and listen to them...

i have a pair of cheap rock speakers outside in my shade garden that sound VERY good...

I can honestly say this is SO TRUE!

I've done outdoor HT 2 years in a row now, great for gatherings.
My 12 year old Atlantic Technology System 350's were used and I was not prepared for how great they sounded! Everyone was totally immersed in a very decent audio soundstage - and decent video as well via the Sony VW60.

That's a 16' wide x 9' tall screen, and the AT350's Frt RH/LH/CTR did a great job at the soundstage, you can see how they were mounted.
I used older AT SYS274's for the rear's, yea they are di-pole so I just made do and pointed one of the speaker faces at the crowd, since there are no walls to reflect sound off...
I've since re-wired them so both sides are in same phase and there is now no null zone when pointing them at the crowd.

Rears shown here
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post #185 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 07:48 AM
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^^^

oh man... i am GREEN with envy... that is a slick setup you've got there...

yup... amazing how much different speakers sound when they aren't interacting with room boundaries... like i said, my rocks sound rather good, and the soundstage is huge...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #186 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

well... y'know... you might want to learn a few things about this, since you are "all about sound quality"...



"fans" is the appropriate word... to be honest, you'll never convince me of your above assertion, because the numbers simply don't back it up (not to mention your "test" is wholly invalid)...

^^ Glad YOU understand everything with your lack of a .phd in Audio, and since YOU have NO Numbers that support anything, that states YOU don't have a Clue. You sound like a Used CAR salesman in the wrong forum and certainly the wrong thread. It's understandable why you have NO FANS there.

Not to mention, everything you state is void of Fact and just full of Fiction with a lot of Friction. Maybe you can go find your fans on another Thread and Tread on them -- Do US a Favor here, find another thread.
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post #187 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 12:05 PM
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Here are the measurements I took in my room a couple days ago. Speakers are Paradigm Signature S8s for the mains and Signature ADPs for the surrounds. Room has treatments for first reflections on side walls, back walls and ceiling, is carpeted and has bass traps in the front corners. Mains are about 3 feet from sidewall and about 4-5 feet from front wall. Red curve is measured response (average of 6 measurements around the main seating) and green is corrected curve with Anthem's ARC processing.



Even with treatments the bottom end had some peaks and valleys for response. ARC tamed it and I ended up crossing over to the sub at about 40 Hz. So treatments will do a lot from the room, but EQ'ing can help quite a bit as well. Typically to get really good response in a room they tend to get over treated and sound a bit dead. It is easy to get carried away! My wife has a Master's in Acoustics from Penn State and she comments all the time on how most people go a little overboard on treatments and end up getting a room that is too dead. Treatments are an absolute must, but I recommend starting small and building otherwise you may not like the results.

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post #188 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 12:11 PM
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Here are the rest of the speakers. Notice the difference with the rears compared to the mains? The rears are Paradigm Signature S6s and are only about a foot off the back wall, no treatments for reflections. Center is a Signature C5 and I am using SVS subs. The rear speaker graph shows how much influence the back wall has on the speakers and why placement is so important. I ended up crossing them over pretty high to eliminate this since they are used for rear surrounds that only engage with a 7.1 track (I don't use any pseudo 7.1 algorithums to derive 7.1 from 5.1), which is rare. The center is about 4 feet forward of the front wall with treatments for first reflections on the sidewalls, ceiling and back wall.


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post #189 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

^^ Glad YOU understand everything with your lack of a .phd in Audio, and since YOU have NO Numbers that support anything, that states YOU don't have a Clue. You sound like a Used CAR salesman in the wrong forum and certainly the wrong thread. It's understandable why you have NO FANS there.

Not to mention, everything you state is void of Fact and just full of Fiction with a lot of Friction. Maybe you can go find your fans on another Thread and Tread on them -- Do US a Favor here, find another thread.

i don't "need" numbers in this case... i'm not a "used car salesman", and just so you know, i've got a clue about what i'm talking about...

nope... you wanna post here, you are going to get responses... whether you like them or not... if you want to have an "official sq thread", you are going to get "answers about sq"...

answer the question i asked you... how could you possibly tell what his system sounds like when it's played back on YOUR speakers in YOUR room...

edit: i see you quoted quite an old post... and yes, that post references "numbers", and YOU did the math yourself and found out what i tried to tell you when you first bought the amplifier...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #190 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post
i don't "need" numbers in this case... i'm not a "used car salesman", and just so you know, i've got a clue about what i'm talking about...

nope... you wanna post here, you are going to get responses... whether you like them or not... if you want to have an "official sq thread", you are going to get "answers about sq"...

answer the question i asked you... how could you possibly tell what his system sounds like when it's played back on YOUR speakers in YOUR room...

edit: i see you quoted quite an old post... and yes, that post references "numbers", and YOU did the math yourself and found out what i tried to tell you when you first bought the amplifier...
Just keep in mind that DPS was positive he was not dealing with any placebo effects because he could hear the difference. I don't think he even knew what a double blind test was until someone spelled it out in a different thread earlier this week.
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post #191 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 12:53 PM
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Was it me, my receiver, or the telecast?

Last night while watching American Idol (I know, don't get me started it's a wife thing), the sound quality was absolutely horrible. I realized that my Onkyo 608 display read that it was decoding as Dolby Digital (which according to my DTV HDVR guide was the proper format) seemed to be sending equal signals to all my 5 speakers and not seeming to decode like what a normal show would be with most dialog coming out of center channel, etc

Sound drove me batty to the point where I changed the setting to "Direct" which I think sends the signal only to the 3 front speakers but not sure. All other shows seemed fine.

I know this is a silly question but anyone out there have the same problem?
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post #192 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post
^^ Glad YOU understand everything with your lack of a .phd in Audio, and since YOU have NO Numbers that support anything, that states YOU don't have a Clue. You sound like a Used CAR salesman in the wrong forum and certainly the wrong thread. It's understandable why you have NO FANS there.

Not to mention, everything you state is void of Fact and just full of Fiction with a lot of Friction. Maybe you can go find your fans on another Thread and Tread on them -- Do US a Favor here, find another thread.
DPS,

I think when you post here on AVS like you have above your credibility is then in question. I know for a fact Chris is quite knowledgable in this hobby (obsession) of ours. So if at times you do not get the answers to your questions that you want to hear you might consider being a bit more diplomatic with your replies. Someone can have all the degrees and PHD's but it is useless IMO unless the person has actual experience with a specific subject as well as some common sense.

Bill

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post #193 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post
...Do US a Favor here, find another thread.
Define, "US."

I appreciate his posts and suspect that many more do as well. The rancor in your post illustrates your complete lack of understanding. Rather than attack the post with supporting data to back yourself up, you attack the poster. A highly respected and knowledgible, long time poster. Perhaps you might want to research Chris,his posts, and knowledge base before responding as you did.

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures ...
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post #194 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post
^^ Glad YOU understand everything with your lack of a .phd in Audio, and since YOU have NO Numbers that support anything, that states YOU don't have a Clue. You sound like a Used CAR salesman in the wrong forum and certainly the wrong thread. It's understandable why you have NO FANS there.

Not to mention, everything you state is void of Fact and just full of Fiction with a lot of Friction. Maybe you can go find your fans on another Thread and Tread on them -- Do US a Favor here, find another thread.
Are you serious? You have people here trying to help you, despite the fact that you want all information handed to you on a silver platter, and you go off on Ccotenj. You ask questions that can easily be found by searching Google or AVS and then tell one of the more knowledgeable and experienced posters that he doesn't belong here. That's crazy.
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post #195 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post
Are you serious? You have people here trying to help you, despite the fact that you want all information handed to you on a silver platter, and you go off on Ccotenj. You ask questions that can easily be found by searching Google or AVS and then tell one of the more knowledgeable and experienced posters that he doesn’t belong here. That’s crazy.
Yes, and here is what others think, one of many.

Im sending you this message via PM simply because I can't stand ccotenj. He has flat out attacked me in threads and called me names. Im not wining, I just don't get how he gets away with this BS. I have always been respectful to him and he just likes to start fights and argue. This forum is about talking and learning. In ccotenj's mind if you do not do everything like him or follow his A/V beliefs you are less than him and an idiot. According to him we should all just come here to learn and sit back and shut our mouths and listen to him nit pick and argue with people. I personally think this guy has some passive aggressive issues. I don't know how he does not get beat up all the time if he talks at people in real life how he often talks to them over the internet. For a while he would show up in threads I was in and just start stuff with me. I do own Emotiva products. He doesn't like Emotiva products and loves to troll around in the Emo threads just to start fights. For no reason at all he called me an Emo fan. I think that time it was because a poster asked something about wanting an amp and I suggested getting an Emotiva. He has called me worse things and the mods do not do anything about it. He a left me alone for a while, but if he starts in on me again Im going to turn him in. Im just trying to let you know this so maybe he wont aggravate you as much.

THAT IS WHY!!!

From NOW ON, this discussion will stay focused on the Topic of this Thread -- PERIOD.

DPS
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post #196 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 02:52 PM
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Nothing beats a good train wreck!
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post #197 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:00 PM
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^^^

well, posting whiny pm's from others is up there too... which i'm going to guess came from member "secret squirrel"... although i've guessed wrong before, and no doubt annoyed more than one member or two along the way...

however, it's hardly my fault that people don't like being told they are incorrect...

- chris

 

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post #198 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:03 PM
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It might be a good time to summarise what this thread has come up with in terms of the big ticket items that deliver sound quality (and maybe halt some of the flaming - hopefully)

Assuming you have a reasonably good reciever and good amplification (whether integral or a seperate) with room equalisation and calibration, the big ticket items to improve sound quality seem to be (in no particular order)

1. Quality of the source material - well recorded and mastered material and preferably (but not essential) recorded with higher bit rates and sample frequencies than CD's and maybe multi channel for extra effects.

2. Good quality speakers - bang for buck deliver bigger improvements than amps etc - until the point of diminishing return wherever that is - maybe Focal Grande Utopias at whatever price they sell for in your region.

3. Room acoustics - how the sound bounces around the room and treatments to improve. A HT inside a steel shed with concrete floors is never going to sound great.

4. Calibration and correction - basic calibration like bass management, balanced SPL's on speakers, delays for distance, etc and the exotic new beasts - room EQ correction, dynamic EQ, dynamic volume etc.

Anything else belong in the big ticket category - how about cables that magically refine the sonic timbre of the source (once they've burnt in of course)?
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post #199 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:19 PM
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^^^

that's not an unreasonable list... assuming you were joking about the cables...

- well mixed/recorded material makes a big difference...

- speakers, assuming the room doesn't kill them, can make a big difference...

- as i've repeatedly hammered on, speaker/room interaction (and the steps you take to correct it) is the place where most people need the most "work", and what many tend to ignore... and since it makes up what you "hear", ignoring this part isn't good...

virtually everything else, assuming the electronics are being used within spec, is fluff... having personally owned multiple "flagship" units (not to mention heaven knows how much other stuff), i'm reasonably confident in that statement...

biggest impacts for me in terms of "sq"...

1) gaining a proper understanding of how sound "works", and being able to apply those concepts in my listening environment...

2) "better" speakers... "better" sub...

3) spending a significant amount of time experimenting once those speakers are in my room with positioning, panel placement, etc. for example, my sierra's "liked" having panels behind the speakers... the salks, otoh, do not (much to my surprise)... removing the panels from the front wall made a not insignificant difference for the better...

the best speakers in the world won't sound "good" if they are handicapped by the environment...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #200 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Bill, thank you and I will check those URL's out to Spin some More Plastic.

DPS and Bill. That is a pretty good looking site. I would also add that garage/yard sales are fantastic places to pick up some great deals on used CD's if you are in an area that has yard sales. I live in Florida and I can usually get some really great stuff for $2 or less. And the more I buy, the cheaper they are.
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post #201 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Yes, and here is what others think, one of many.

Im sending you this message via PM simply because I can't stand ccotenj. He has flat out attacked me in threads and called me names. Im not wining, I just don't get how he gets away with this BS. I have always been respectful to him and he just likes to start fights and argue. This forum is about talking and learning. In ccotenj's mind if you do not do everything like him or follow his A/V beliefs you are less than him and an idiot. According to him we should all just come here to learn and sit back and shut our mouths and listen to him nit pick and argue with people. I personally think this guy has some passive aggressive issues. I don't know how he does not get beat up all the time if he talks at people in real life how he often talks to them over the internet. For a while he would show up in threads I was in and just start stuff with me. I do own Emotiva products. He doesn't like Emotiva products and loves to troll around in the Emo threads just to start fights. For no reason at all he called me an Emo fan. I think that time it was because a poster asked something about wanting an amp and I suggested getting an Emotiva. He has called me worse things and the mods do not do anything about it. He a left me alone for a while, but if he starts in on me again Im going to turn him in. Im just trying to let you know this so maybe he wont aggravate you as much.

THAT IS WHY!!!

From NOW ON, this discussion will stay focused on the Topic of this Thread -- PERIOD.

DPS
THREAD STARTER - OP

I guess you did not read my suggestions in my post. To publicly post another members PM here on the forum to try to prove your point is totally classless IMO. I actually thought you started this thread to discuss SQ and maybe learn a few things.

Bill

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post #202 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Yes, and here is what others think, one of many.

Im sending you this message via PM simply because I can't stand ccotenj. He has flat out attacked me in threads and called me names. Im not wining, I just don't get how he gets away with this BS. I have always been respectful to him and he just likes to start fights and argue. This forum is about talking and learning. In ccotenj's mind if you do not do everything like him or follow his A/V beliefs you are less than him and an idiot. According to him we should all just come here to learn and sit back and shut our mouths and listen to him nit pick and argue with people. I personally think this guy has some passive aggressive issues. I don't know how he does not get beat up all the time if he talks at people in real life how he often talks to them over the internet. For a while he would show up in threads I was in and just start stuff with me. I do own Emotiva products. He doesn't like Emotiva products and loves to troll around in the Emo threads just to start fights. For no reason at all he called me an Emo fan. I think that time it was because a poster asked something about wanting an amp and I suggested getting an Emotiva. He has called me worse things and the mods do not do anything about it. He a left me alone for a while, but if he starts in on me again Im going to turn him in. Im just trying to let you know this so maybe he wont aggravate you as much.

THAT IS WHY!!!

From NOW ON, this discussion will stay focused on the Topic of this Thread -- PERIOD.

DPS
THREAD STARTER - OP

Ummm. You went off topic when you started your little rant. That is what got the thread off track, Thread Starter.

I guess since everybody jumped on you about your post you had to pull out a PM. Too bad nobody was willing to acutally post on the thread about how knowledgeable you are and how helpful you have been to this forum. I mean you did discover all this new information. I mean how would we ever have found out the bit rate of cds without you asking the question? I doubt it could have been found on google.
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post #203 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 03:40 PM
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that's not an unreasonable list... assuming you were joking about the cables...

I was.......I couldn't resist that old forum chestnut!!!

Quote:


1) gaining a proper understanding of how sound "works", and being able to apply those concepts in my listening environment...

Is there a good reference book you could recommend on this topic - hopefully in a HT or HiFi context?
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post #204 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 04:01 PM
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^^^

i figured you were...

yea... the master handbook of acoustics is a very good book... written in a language that us humans can understand... definitely worth the 25 bucks from the big river...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #205 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

i figured you were...

yea... the master handbook of acoustics is a very good book... written in a language that us humans can understand... definitely worth the 25 bucks from the big river...

I grabbed a copy.....I get a bit worried on room acoustics though...some people get right into it and stick all sorts of panels on their walls and in corners totally oblivoius to how unattractive they look.....hopefully some more attractive options are available (If required) like artwork or soft furnishings (Lamps, drapes etc)?

On the issue of quality of sound source last night I compared a CD version of Steely Dan's "Hey Nineteen" (from a compilation best of CD) to a 96/24 FLAC from HD tracks - the difference in SQ is staggering - probably more to do with the mastering than the higher resolution, or maybe both, but the quality of the source certainly is one of the major determinants of SQ imho.
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post #206 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 08:22 PM
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You can buy, or make, panels with attractive covers, even pictures if you wish.

I have noticed a trend toward higher SQ in remastered material targeting higher-quality medium. My opinion is also that the magic's in the mastering, not the bits... I have also heard plenty of re-issues of old vinyl favorites that sound like... well, "poor", despite the fact that CD's have higher resolution and generally better performance than LPs. (Oops, that'll start a debate!)

Toole's book is also good, but Everest is my "go-to" book, especially for a quick answer and an easy read for the competent layman. For the deep stuff, I go to my grad acoustics texts, but I've reached the age when multi-dimensional nonlinear wave equations give me a headache...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #207 of 263 Old 03-10-2011, 09:06 PM
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So multi-dimensional linear wave equations are ok? Just the non-linear ones that hurt your brain?

I have a book on wavelets. Now those equations gave me a headache. Actually, I don't really understand them, heh

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #208 of 263 Old 03-11-2011, 11:37 AM
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Man's got to know his limitations. -- Didn't L'Hopital say that?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #209 of 263 Old 03-11-2011, 11:43 PM
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Hey guys,

I was worried about panels on the wall looking ugly but check out these babies - mighty expensive though!!!!!

http://www.artoustic.com.au/
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post #210 of 263 Old 03-12-2011, 04:57 AM
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^^^

wow, those are nice...

and

wow, they are expensive...

but then again... it's not like a piece of artwork that large would be cheap either...

i forget... what's your room "look" like? dimensions, openings, etc.? how are the speakers positioned in relation to the walls and you?

in addition to (possibly) using wall panels for first reflections, bass traps in the corners are very rarely a bad thing... in my room, trapping the front corners basically from floor to ceiling made a not insignificant difference... and i'd trap the rear ones if i could figure out a way to do it (room restrictions making it difficult for me)...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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