** OFFICIAL ** -- Sound Quality (SQ) Discussion - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

Being centered between ones speakers is NOT necessarily optimal SQ, and in most Rooms is NOT. To many other factors to be concerned about acoustically impact the placement of the speakers in relation to the listening position.

Not so fast. You are reading way too much into Toole's white paper. A listening position off the centerline of the L/R loudspeakers may work for multichannel listening w/ a center channel active. And it may provide the most even bass response. But it sacrifices stereo imaging, particularly for two channel listening.

Furthermore, subwoofer placement, room treatments, and digital EQ all can help even bass response at a centerline listening position. But nothing can restore stereo imaging at an off centerline listening position.

See my clarification above...

AJ
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post #242 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

read aj's post... edit: both of them...

it's not a question of "belief"... it's a question of understanding what toole is trying to tell you...

This is not the first time DPS has proclaimed facts when in actuality he didn't understand what he was talking about. Everybody needs to read his posts with caution.
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post #243 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 12:34 PM
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It's all a matter of how it sounds to you.
This is not quite like the old days when you had enough audio speciality shops and you were able to take your amp there and connect it to the different speakers and compare.
Of course the rooms were different then your home but it was still a good way to try before you buy!!
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post #244 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

read aj's post... edit: both of them...

it's not a question of "belief"... it's a question of understanding what toole is trying to tell you...

It is very clear neither you or generalhead have read over what the Dr.'s are trying to tell you --- ALL ROOMS ARE DIFFERENT ACOUSTICALLY.
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post #245 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

It is very clear neither you or generalhead have read over what the Dr.'s are trying to tell you --- ALL ROOMS ARE DIFFERENT ACOUSTICALLY.

Why don't you point us to the specific part of the 3 links you provided that backs up your claim? General concensus is that your speakers should not be centered in your room but they should still be centered on your listening position.
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post #246 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

It is very clear neither you or generalhead have read over what the Dr.'s are trying to tell you --- ALL ROOMS ARE DIFFERENT ACOUSTICALLY.

ummm... reference back to one of my very first posts in a conversation with you... i think i'm well aware that all rooms are different acoustically...

however, that doesn't support what you are trying to say (or what you read into the paper)... again, read aj's posts...

fwiw... i (as well as some other posters in this thread) are quite familiar with the whitepaper that you referenced...

- chris

 

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post #247 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 01:16 PM
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I added another sub last week to my system and I have to say it was a nice improvement. Both my subwoofers I have found on craigslist for under 100 so I know they are top quality but they do a good job in my small room. I had a Klipsch KSW10 and added a DefTech Pro Sub 100. I have them on either side of the fronts right now. I had to level match them first because the DefTech is louder than the Klipsch. It also goes a lot lower. The improvement for movies was unbelievable. You can really feel the bass now. I think I could do better for music because there is a bit of boominess but I still need to try some more positions. I've been reading some threads and found out about gain matching as opposed to level matching. I will try that this weekend and see what happens. I was watching Inception last night and it was insane. I think 2 10s in a small room is perfect. It would be nice if they were both matching SVS but that would have cost at least 4 times more than what I paid. I like having the 2 10s better than when I had a 12inch Klipsch a few years ago.
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post #248 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCbridge View Post

It's all a matter of how it sounds to you.
This is not quite like the old days when you had enough audio speciality shops and you were able to take your amp there and connect it to the different speakers and compare.
Of course the rooms were different then your home but it was still a good way to try before you buy!!

EXACTLY TRUE FACT -- how does it sound to you? Look at all the professionals telling you different locations for all your speakers, and they are all not exactly the same. Do they all know why they are different from one another? Maybe they are not sitting in your room with your size, things in it, and shape. So who is the expert on speaker placement, Dolby or Dr. Toole or who?
Ask ten different people, and you will get ten different answers.
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post #249 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 02:01 PM
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This thread is starting to remind of "I'm not a acoustical expert, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night"

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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post #250 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 02:15 PM
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^^^

LOL!

Quote:


Ask ten different people, and you will get ten different answers.

if you ask them "where is the sweet spot in a 2 channel system, centered or off-center?", i would hope you wouldn't get ten different answers...

there is general agreement on general starting positions for speaker placement in a room, and much of that is backed up by good hard science... there are several "do's and don'ts" that all of them have in common...

much of the "disagreement" these days, it would seem to me, is in what to do about reflections... ranging from the "absorb as much as you can" crowd to some recent work from the controlled directivity crowd showing that with given parameters, little to no absorption was preferred... and everywhere in between (where i, fwiw, fall)... and even that is predicated upon usage... a big dedicated theater room with four rows of seats is a heckuva lot different usage than someone with a pair of speakers and a recliner in front of them...

however, there's 2 parts to speaker placement... "general starting positions" is part 1... part 2 is adjusting those to your room (because, as we know, every room is different) and preferences (because, as we know, everyone's ears are different)...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #251 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill mac View Post

this thread is starting to remind of "i'm not a acoustical expert, but i stayed at a holiday inn express last night":d

bill

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post #252 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 02:21 PM
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The worst part of the whole discussion is that it seems 99.9% of the population does not really understand the term Sound Quality.

Hint: Its not SOUND PREFERENCE

In the end all discussions about audio products come down to conclusions about sound preference, very few people actually do the necessary controlled testing and measurements to prove and Sound Quality difference in products.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #253 of 263 Old 03-14-2011, 02:35 PM
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^^^

bah... details...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #254 of 263 Old 03-15-2011, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Try out the Free MiniRator MR1 for generation of:

White Noise
Pink Noise
Square Wave
Sine Wave
Sweep
Polarity Test Signal

Listen carefully and determine what you hear. Can you really hear 20Hz, 30Hz or how about 13KHz., or 15KHz.?

If you can't hear that frequency why would you worry about Sound Quality Room Corrections/Enhancements at those frequencies?

http://www.realtraps.com/info.htm

Requires the Macromedia Flash Player.
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post #255 of 263 Old 03-15-2011, 01:02 PM
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Most people can hear below 20Hz, it requires more dBs (see Fletcher-Munson curves) FWIW, I can hear down to about 16Hz and on the high end, I care little about anything over 15KHz. Your point about EQing below 20Hz is misleading, we require LT circuits and High Pass filters all the time in subwoofer designs. I have a 10Hz EQed setting on my LMS5400 design.

btw, I would not bother with Free MiniRator MR1 when REW is the best free software out there for in room bass measurements, including playing any tone you want.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #256 of 263 Old 03-15-2011, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Most people can hear below 20Hz, it requires more dBs (see Fletcher-Munson curves) FWIW, I can hear down to about 16Hz and on the high end, I care little about anything over 15KHz. Your point about EQing below 20Hz is misleading, we require LT circuits and High Pass filters all the time in subwoofer designs. I have a 10Hz EQed setting on my LMS5400 design.

btw, I would not bother with Free MiniRator MR1 when REW is the best free software out there for in room bass measurements, including playing any tone you want.


PennGray -- Thanks.

Here it is for all that don't have it:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Tks. PennGray
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post #257 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Most people can hear below 20Hz, it requires more dBs (see Fletcher-Munson curves) FWIW, I can hear down to about 16Hz and on the high end, I care little about anything over 15KHz. Your point about EQing below 20Hz is misleading, we require LT circuits and High Pass filters all the time in subwoofer designs. I have a 10Hz EQed setting on my LMS5400 design.

btw, I would not bother with Free MiniRator MR1 when REW is the best free software out there for in room bass measurements, including playing any tone you want.

^^PennGray --

But my point is if one can NOT hear below say 30Hz. or over 8KHz. why even worry about EQ below and above those frequencies, if one can not even hear them?

Look at the Hearing Loss as a function of age here:

http://www.roger-russell.com/hearing/hearing.htm

For men notice how much loss there is as we age vs. women at higher frequencies.
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post #258 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

But my point is if one can NOT hear below say 30Hz. or over 8KHz.

If you cannot hear frequencies >8 kHz, then you have serious hearing loss.

AJ
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post #259 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

If you cannot hear frequencies >8 kHz, then you have serious hearing loss.

AJ

+1. And if you can't hear sounds below 30 Hz, you probably need to turn it up. Fletcher-Munson curves dictate that the SPL that is comfortably loud at 1 KHZ may be inaudible at 20 or 30 Hz . . . . Since everybody is subject to F-M, sounds we hear that appear to have a lot of low frequency REALLY have a lot of low frequency, but as you turn them down (or move away from a "real" sound in an outdoor environmnet) the bass will appear to get quieter faster, because that's how our hearing works.
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post #260 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenPureSound View Post

^^PennGray --

But my point is if one can NOT hear below say 30Hz. or over 8KHz. why even worry about EQ below and above those frequencies, if one can not even hear them?

Look at the Hearing Loss as a function of age here:

http://www.roger-russell.com/hearing/hearing.htm

For men notice how much loss there is as we age vs. women at higher frequencies.

Ah, I undestand what you are posting. I will say that since I do not care about > 15KHz I choose to find speaker designs that do not focus on the importance of > 15KHz.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #261 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 12:15 PM
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Even if you don't hear frequencies below 30 Hz you still feel them.
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post #262 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 12:26 PM
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This should be renamed the LOL Thread. I smell flames ** OFFICIAL ** Also, I don't think it belong in AMPs, Receivers, and Processors thread.
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post #263 of 263 Old 03-16-2011, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

If you cannot hear frequencies >8 kHz, then you have serious hearing loss.

AJ

What did you say at such a High Frequency??? Wait till all you young ones get OLD, then you will get the picture, and YOU WILL get OLD if and only if your lucky enough to.

Then you won't worry about SQ at all, just when your next SS Check arrives.
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