Pioneer VSX-1021 Owners' Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iafzal View Post

Just to be sure all your speakers set to SMALL?
Also make sure your crossover is low like 80 or 100hz.

Set to small, crossover 80. Not sure why I get so little bass in stereo. As soon as I switch to ext. Stereo things sound much better with music. That's fine for music since every speaker is outputting sound so it fills out the room well but for watching TV occasionally I use stereo (Netflix) for older shows. Ext stereo sounds ridiculous with Tv

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post #1802 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 08:29 AM
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In all reality, what is the highest power speaker (with average sensitivity) that this receiver can handle? Really 90 W/channel? And is this for 7, 5, or 2 speakers?

I plan to get larger fronts in the future, but want to know if I will need to upgrade my receiver as well.

Thanks!
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post #1803 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

In all reality, what is the highest power speaker (with average sensitivity) that this receiver can handle? Really 90 W/channel? And is this for 7, 5, or 2 speakers?

I plan to get larger fronts in the future, but want to know if I will need to upgrade my receiver as well.

Thanks!

Speakers don't have "power." They use power.

When matching speakers to an AVR, you want to make sure the speakers are efficient enough that they won't ask the receiver for more power than it can deliver.

Room size, desired maximum SPL, speaker sensitivity, amplifier dynamic headroom... these are the things you need to know to match speakers, AVR, and room (the room being just as important a part of an audio system as the hardware). It's almost impossible to overpower a quality loudspeaker in a home environment. Much easier to underpower it.

Since larger speakers tend to be more sensitive than smaller ones, upgrading your speakers is unlikely to require a more powerful AVR, assuming the same room and the same reference level.

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post #1804 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 05:41 PM
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Just purchased the 1021k from newegg to replace my fading vsx-d912k. Pretty excited about the new features.

FYI, newegg's got a promo running until 2/9/12 for -$250 from their retail $549. $299 ain't bad I'd say.
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post #1805 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 06:41 PM
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Volume won't show up on the video source. You can seta default power on volume for each of zones 1 and 2. I set these up to start at 40 and it seems to work well. Even thought the receiver display is visible I never look at it when changing volume I just use my ears.
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post #1806 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 07:15 PM
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I read through this thread and I'm sorry if I missed this question and eventual answer but I think my situation may be somewhat unique.
I have a MacMini used as a HTPC. It's the early 2009 model where HDMI sound is not supported so I use a toslink cable for optical sound and HDMI for video (mini display to HDMI).

I tried to see if I could tell the receiver that video 1 (hdmi from machine) used digital sound but it did not give me the sound. Is it even possible to have the sound come in the way I describe and still have picture? If not, I'll just plug the HDMI back into my TV and call it a day.

Thanks
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post #1807 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessica. View Post

I have a MacMini used as a HTPC. It's the early 2009 model where HDMI sound is not supported so I use a toslink cable for optical sound and HDMI for video (mini display to HDMI).

I tried to see if I could tell the receiver that video 1 (hdmi from machine) used digital sound but it did not give me the sound. Is it even possible to have the sound come in the way I describe and still have picture? If not, I'll just plug the HDMI back into my TV and call it a day.

Thanks

Hi jessica., yes its possible. Assign Digital In to either OPT-1 or OPT-2 (whichever its connected to) under INPUT: < VIDEO >. Use the "Signal Sel" button on remote and cycle to "Digital".
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post #1808 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 09:15 PM
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Got it hooked up. Plugged everything in via hdmi, 3.1 with banana clips on the speaker wire. Sub/Speakers hooked up. Recognized on my network plugged into my gigabit switch. Ran the cd, no audio, video over HDMI so I unplugged the unit from power and then plugged in after 10 seconds. Turned it back on and got sound and video over HDMI. Programmed my harmony remote and this weekend I'll run the audio setup when I have the house to myself. So far so good. Tested AirPlay on a couple of songs no issues. Have the remote on my iPhone and iPad.
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post #1809 of 2697 Old 02-08-2012, 10:26 PM
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I did a search of this thread but came up empty.

I bought this AVR to watch 3D Blu-Ray discs, but unfortunately my Blu-Ray player (Sony NSZ-GT1) indicates that my display does not support 3D playback. If I connect directly to the TV using the same HDMI cable, it works fine, but obviously that's a sub-optimal solution. I replaced all of my HDMI cables with the high speed ones from Monoprice, but no luck.

Any suggestions? Trying to avoid eating a restocking fee with Newegg.

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Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1021
Television - Panasonic P65VT30
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post #1810 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

Thank you for THIS concise answer

I guess my follow-up question would be, why do higher end/larger speakers always tend to be coupled with higher end/larger amps, if lesser amps (AVRs) can do the job?

Thanks!

It's more about other details in the higher end AVR than just raw power. Better imaging, more natural processing, better features, etc. If the AVR becomes the weak link in the chain, it is in a sense holding back the speakers.

But there are limits to how much more efficient a speaker can be. Going to large towers, you have more drivers which require more juice than a bookshelf speaker with 1-2 drivers and a tweeter. You want more power for that. It really depends on the specific speakers and the specifications.

But as a real example, I swapped out a set of small HTiB speakers with 2.5" drivers for bookshelf speakers with 5.25" drivers that were more efficient. I had to turn down the volume compared to the older speakers to keep the sound at the same level. In that sense, the bookshelf speakers actually use less power on average.
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post #1811 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolenka View Post


But there are limits to how much more efficient a speaker can be. Going to large towers, you have more drivers which require more juice than a bookshelf speaker with 1-2 drivers and a tweeter. You want more power for that. It really depends on the specific speakers and the specifications.

while there are limits to speaker efficiency, the other posters generalization is correct, and yours is not...

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post #1812 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

Did you really need to include this bit? I thought speakers were photosynthetic or could harness the tidal energy or something...

Then please explain "what is the highest power speaker?" The question makes no sense unless you think speakers somehow produce "power." Which is in fact a common misconception based on the way speakers are often labeled. If the term "power handling" was always used, there would be less confusion (meaningless as that term actually is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post


I guess my follow-up question would be, why do higher end/larger speakers always tend to be coupled with higher end/larger amps, if lesser amps (AVRs) can do the job?

Thanks!

Because people who buy high-end speakers tend to define "the job" differently. They have bigger rooms, or they want to be able to produce 110dB peaks (or both). They want the modularity of a separate pre/pro, or they want the extremely low distortion that such equipment has. And some large speakers still have the kinds of designs that need a lot of power.

It's still always better to have too much power, which is very unlikely to damage a quality speaker, than not enough, which can.

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post #1813 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

Would 'power-handling' or 'with higher power requirements' make you happier? Sorry it just seems to me like your comment was borderline trolling and you obviously understood what I was referring to...

You're identified as a 'noob' and you asked a noob question, expressing a common noob misconception. There is really no other way to explain your phrasing. So I explained the concept, and answered your question. If it was a mistake, fine, concede it and move on.

I don't think "trolling" means what you seem to think it means. You might want to re-think your responses towards people who answer your questions and then continue to respond to your requests for further clarification.

Anyway, whatever, we're done now.

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post #1814 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post


You're identified as a 'noob' and you asked a noob question, expressing a common noob misconception. There is really no other way to explain your phrasing. So I explained the concept, and answered your question. If it was a mistake, fine, concede it and move on.

I don't think "trolling" means what you seem to think it means. You might want to re-think your responses towards people who answer your questions and then continue to respond to your requests for further clarification.

Anyway, whatever, we're done now.

I may be a noob when it comes to setting up a HT, that doesn't mean I don't understand the laws of physics. You knit-picking over a slight detail that is generally understood, including by you, is trolling in my mind.

I do however, appreciate your advice.
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post #1815 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 08:47 AM
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^^^

with your attitude, help will be hard to come by...

as you have NO idea what is "generally understood" by new users (and rdclark was answering how most of the old heads would answer), i'd suggest you take advice and not fire at those who are trying to help you...

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post #1816 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 09:02 AM
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I don't take kindly to belittling and condescending comments, but I do appreciate objective advice.

I know my place as a noob; that doesn't mean I need to be looked down on.
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post #1817 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 09:24 AM
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^^^

oh please...

you asked a question... you got an answer... the answer you got is what the great majority of us would have given you...

be aware that "we" have dealt with thousands of new users... and "we" have a pretty good idea of what they may or may not know...

iow... thicken up that skin a little son...

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post #1818 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 09:31 AM
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The specs for the 1021 show a power output of 90 W per channel (20Hz-20kHz,.08%THD@8ohm). Is this consistent no matter how many channels are being used? Or would a 2.0 setup be getting more power per channel?

Thanks!
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post #1819 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

The specs for the 1021 show a power output of 90 W per channel (20Hz-20kHz,.08%THD@8ohm). Is this consistent no matter how many channels are being used? Or would a 2.0 setup be getting more power per channel?

Thanks!

That is the 2-channel spec. Multichannel output is lower. ISTR seeing a test that measured the power output of the 1021 at around 50 watts per channel, all channels driven, but I don't have it bookmarked. A little googling might turn it up.

Power output is a greased pig, and imo not worth obsessing over unless you know you need that last dB of headroom (and if you do, you *really* do). The difference between a 50 watt amp and a 90 watt amp, all other things being equal, is likely to matter only at the extremes of speaker inefficiency, room size and acoustics, and peak level... and even less in a system with a powered subwoofer and a relatively high crossover frequency. Doubling the power produces only a 3dB increase in SPL.

ETA: Here are the amplifier measurements, from this review:

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 46.1 watts
1% distortion at 56.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 44.5 watts
1% distortion at 53.7 watts

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post #1820 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

Hi jessica., yes its possible. Assign Digital In to either OPT-1 or OPT-2 (whichever its connected to) under INPUT: < VIDEO >. Use the "Signal Sel" button on remote and cycle to "Digital".

That worked! That is very awesome and I'm impressed that something like this could be done. I was told I was nuts to think I could use HDMI for video and OPT for sound. Thank you so much!
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post #1821 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

That is the 2-channel spec. Multichannel output is lower. ISTR seeing a test that measured the power output of the 1021 at around 50 watts per channel, all channels driven, but I don't have it bookmarked. A little googling might turn it up.

Power output is a greased pig, and imo not worth obsessing over unless you know you need that last dB of headroom (and if you do, you *really* do). The difference between a 50 watt amp and a 90 watt amp, all other things being equal, is likely to matter only at the extremes of speaker inefficiency, room size and acoustics, and peak level... and even less in a system with a powered subwoofer and a relatively high crossover frequency. Doubling the power produces only a 3dB increase in SPL.

ETA: Here are the amplifier measurements, from this review:

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 46.1 watts
1% distortion at 56.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 44.5 watts
1% distortion at 53.7 watts

Thanks for your help. So if I have 5 speakers with a power handling of 75W each, would I effectively be under powering them with this receiver? Would it be advised against to use speakers with a power handling of 150W with this receiver?

You had mentioned that not having enough power to the speakers could damage them, how can I avoid this?
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post #1822 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

Thanks for your help. So if I have 5 speakers with a power handling of 75W each, would I effectively be under powering them with this receiver? Would it be advised against to use speakers with a power handling of 150W with this receiver?

You had mentioned that not having enough power to the speakers could damage them, how can I avoid this?

Trying to achieve levels higher than the amp can provide power for will cause "clipping distortion" (think of it as the waveforms having their peaks chopped off), a very harsh kind of distortion that can cause damage to tweeters. You avoid it by turning down the volume, and getting a higher-powered amplifier before trying to play sounds that loud, in that room, with those speakers again.

As for your first question, if a speaker that can handle 75W is OK for a given amp, than why wouldn't a speaker that can handle 150W be twice as OK? (The answer is that "power handling" is generally a meaningless specification that, as I said before, should be ignored).

Whether the 1021 has enough power for your speakers can't be answered without knowing the room size, how it's furnished, what you listen to and how loud you listen to it, and exactly what speakers you're talking about.

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post #1823 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Trying to achieve levels higher than the amp can provide power for will cause "clipping distortion" (think of it as the waveforms having their peaks chopped off), a very harsh kind of distortion that can cause damage to tweeters. You avoid it by turning down the volume, and getting a higher-powered amplifier before trying to play sounds that loud, in that room, with those speakers again.

As for your first question, if a speaker that can handle 75W is OK for a given amp, than why wouldn't a speaker that can handle 150W be twice as OK? (The answer is that "power handling" is generally a meaningless specification that, as I said before, should be ignored).

Whether the 1021 has enough power for your speakers can't be answered without knowing the room size, how it's furnished, what you listen to and how loud you listen to it, and exactly what speakers you're talking about.

So, to get the same volume level out of a speaker that can handle more power (compared to one that handles less), I need a more powerful amp? Example: 150 W (NHT Classic 3) vs 75 W (NHT Superzero 2.0) speakers. To get the same level from each speaker, the Classic 3 will require more power? Or will it be the same amount of power at that level, but that Classic 3 can go much louder?

Thanks!
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post #1824 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

So, to get the same volume level out of a speaker that can handle more power (compared to one that handles less), I need a more powerful amp? Example: 150 W (NHT Classic 3) vs 75 W (NHT Superzero 2.0) speakers. To get the same level from each speaker, the Classic 3 will require more power? Or will it be the same amount of power at that level, but that Classic 3 can go much louder?

Thanks!

"Power handling" is a generally meaningless specification indicative of nothing, least of all how loudly a speaker will play (although they can be compared if both speakers are from the same reputable manufacturer). You're looking for the "sensitivity" spec.

The Classic 3 is given as :Sensitivity - 87dB (2.83v@1m).
The Superzero as: Sensitivity - 86dB

This means the Classic 3 will play 1dB louder with the same power input. A very small difference.

But these are both relatively inefficient speakers, being small, sealed-cabinet (acoustic suspension) designs, which typically need a lot of power.

Sensitivities of 89-90dB are common. For example, I use Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000s with my 1020. Their sensitivity is 89dB. Compare them to the Superzero and you find a difference of 3dB -- meaning that at the same volume level, the PM1000 only needs half as much power as the Superzero, in theory.

"Power handling" doesn't enter into it. If from a reputable company like NHT, it tells you to be careful turning these very small speakers up too loud when using a high-powered (over 75WPC) amplifier, and that the Classic 3 can go louder if you have more amplifier power available. But don't try comparing that spec between brands, which may use very different measuring sticks. There is no standard for a "power-handling" spec. Watts measured how? For how long?

You need to drop "power handling" from your AV vocabulary.

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post #1825 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

You need to drop "power handling" from your AV vocabulary.

I've already forgotten it .

In your opinion then, are the SZ2.0's a good match for the 1021? What would be considered too loud, dB-wise?
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post #1826 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 03:15 PM
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Hey all, I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on this AVR and just wanted to know: Does HDMI Standby pass through work with an ATT UVerse box? I've read many people say that standby passthrough is a problem with this receiver.
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post #1827 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post

I've already forgotten it .

In your opinion then, are the SZ2.0's a good match for the 1021? What would be considered too loud, dB-wise?

What is too loud completely depends on your environment. How far you sit from the speakers, how big the room is, and how loud you like it all play a role. It's a fairly personal thing.

The best way to really get a feel for this stuff is to just audition the speakers. A good retailer will have a system wired up in a room such that they can provide input from many receivers into many different sets of speakers (even Best Buy has this). You can adjust the volume to your normal listening level and see if you are getting distortion.

Most people don't really need to turn the volume up terribly high for comfortable listening. For example, 90dB is actually about as loud as truck traffic if you were standing on the side of the road. I personally do my listening where the median volume is probably in the 50-60dB range when it hits my ears. I haven't accurately measured, but I consider things in the 75+dB range to be too loud to listen to comfortably for a long period of time.
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post #1828 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by scottb8888 View Post

I am running my 1021 with a DTV HR25 and a Panasonic plasma. When I set this up, using the DTV remote my wife could turn the equipment on/off, change channels and control the receivers volume. Now when we hit the volume up and down it changes the volume on the TV, not the receiver.

What happened?

Anybody have any ideas?
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post #1829 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBears86 View Post


I've already forgotten it .

In your opinion then, are the SZ2.0's a good match for the 1021? What would be considered too loud, dB-wise?

In a smallish room, no more than, say, 2000 cubic feet and not too acoustically dead, I'd say sure, those speakers and this receiver would work together. I can say nothing about how they would sound, of course.

There is no way to answer your second question, unless you're asking how much sound pressure does it take to produce immediate aural bleeding. That's about 130bB.

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post #1830 of 2697 Old 02-09-2012, 07:06 PM
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Sometimes when watching tv the receiver will switch from Dolby Digital to Stereo when a commercial happens or certain programs. I understand that may be because the source isn't sending a Dolby signal.

My question is, is there a way to have the receiver always default to a simulated surround whenever the source switches from Dolby to stereo vs just plain stereo?
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Pioneer Vsx 1021 K 7 1 Home Theater Receiver , Pioneer , Receivers Amplifiers

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