Onkyo TX-NR609, TX-NR509, TX-SR309 Thread - Page 76 - AVS Forum
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post #2251 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

Did you try any of this? I would hate you to return what everybody believes to be great unit just because you didn't set it up properly.

I think midnight "confirmed" it was the 609 after the same thing occurred when it was replaced. This is flawed fault finding, as I pointed out. And your approach of non specific settings and information leaves me wandering too.

I can't find "skip" in the manual.

Best of luck - but if you get the same problem with a Denon, let me know. It must be AVRs in general. ;-)

Holding down 'VCR/DVR' on the unit itself along with the 'Return' buttons brings up on the display a 'video prosessing' skip or use option
I have tried all combinations of display settings and get the same result. the source is 1080p so i dont need the amp to do anything, i have lipsinc off and tried 'auto' and '1080p' in the hdmi output setting
i have yet to try a full reset
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post #2252 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 04:06 PM
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You need to list your full equipment, and settings - not answered

Start with Monitor Input/Output, Resolution setting? - not answered

Are you forcing either Bluray/AVR/TV to 1080p/24 anywhere in the chain? - not answered

When you get the stutter, what video info is shown on the TV when you press Display? For both input and output.
- not answered
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post #2253 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

You need to list your full equipment, and settings - not answered

Start with Monitor Input/Output, Resolution setting? - not answered

Are you forcing either Bluray/AVR/TV to 1080p/24 anywhere in the chain? - not answered

When you get the stutter, what video info is shown on the TV when you press Display? For both input and output.
- not answered

OK sorry have to continue this tomorrow but meantime here is what i have from memory

source is a Smasung BD-D8500 which is playing BD at 1080/24p also HDTV/SD DVD at 1080/50p. also tried a HTPC with same outputs so monitor 'in' is already 1080p

output is either auto or 1080p on the onkyo

whenever a bluray is played then yes 24p is forced by the player

it is not stutter(thats i different issue) but dropped frames and the input/output shown on the display is always the same as the source outputs 1080p already


from my experience with dropped frames this is when the processor drops a frame to keep the sudio in sync. from memory turning lipsinc off on the onkyo drastically reduced the effect but it is still there albeit only noticable to the most decerning eye
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post #2254 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 06:05 PM
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Ok, my list of equipment and settings:

TX-NR609, blu-ray player Sony BDP-S570, Samsung UN55C8000 TV, all newest version HDMI cables (which support Ethernet and ARC)

Monitor Out: tried both Auto (default) and Through
Picture Adjust->Pictures Mode: tried both default and Direct
LipSync: tried both On (default) and Off

My blu-ray player settings: BD/DVD-ROM 1080/24p Output
Auto (default, I did not change this): from the BD Player manual ->
“Outputs 1920 × 1080p/
24 Hz video signals only
when connecting a 1080/
24p-compatible TV using
the HDMI OUT jack.”

• I’m 100% sure my TV is 24p compatible

- Video info shows 1080/24p when the video stutter occurs. <- this is when I hit the Info button of the 609.
- If I hit Info button of the TV, it also shows 1080/24p
Not sure which one is input/output, but I’m not forcing 1080/24p at all!

- I have only played blu-ray movies so far, NOT music/concert disc.
- Already have latest firmwares of the TV, 609 and blu-ray players.
- I have tried swapping HDMI cables

Blu-ray player connected to [BD/DVD HDMI] (NR609) [HDMI Out] to the TV

(if Blu-ray player [HDMI out] directly to TV -> NEVER had problem!!! This was my setup before getting the 609)
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post #2255 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 06:49 PM
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Okay, I've been investigating my dropped frames issue since November whenever I had some time, and finally today I singled it out to my 609. I also have only seen it on 1080p/24. I've also tried all combinations of Through, Direct, Lip Sync, audio delay, send audio to tv, etc, and can not resolve the issue.

Subjectively, it seems as if it wasn't happening, then started out of the blue one day and has progressively gotten worse (more often). I don't have proof of that, though, as it wasn't until today that I actually measured it occurring every 2 minutes and 47 seconds, plus or minus one second. I can power on my system, go to the credits chapter on any 23.976p Blu-ray, and just watch the credits until I see the skip. I then start my watch timer, and every 2 minutes 47 seconds like clockwork it will skip - I can rewind, pause my Blu-ray, etc. For example, as soon as I see the skip on the credits, I start my watch, then pause the disc. At about 2 minutes 27 seconds I unpause, and then the skip comes right on time at 2:47 after the previous one. I can also not pause at all and just let it run.

I've also only seen it when the source is outputting 23.976p and the TV indicates this as well. I've tried 1080p60 and 1080i60, and it doesn't happen.

In order to further test this, I created myself an AVCHD disc that just plays a scrolling object for 10 minutes. Then this is what I've tried with that disc:
Oppo BDP-93 to 609 to JVC RS40 projector: Skip occurs
Oppo BDP-93 straight to projector: No skip
HDMI computer output to 609 to projector: Skip occurs
HDMI computer straight to projector: No skip

It seems definitive that the 609 is the culprit here, and I'm even more confident now that others are reporting this will other Blu-ray players and displays.

I've also recorded the screen with a video camera and verified it skips a single frame in the video when it occurs.

I'll try to call Onkyo as well when I get the time.
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post #2256 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 10:31 PM
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I'd really like those who also see the dropped frames to do the credits test I described in my previous post and see if, using a stop watch, the dropped frames come 2 minutes 47 seconds apart for you as well.

I started calculating a bunch of numbers, and came up with a theory. Now, I did these calculations with a lot more decimal places but I'm rounding and simplifying here for brevity.

NTSC 30 fps is actually 29.97 fps. Likewise, the HDMI standard defines 24p as really 23.976 fps. Now what if the Onkyo engineers made a mistake and said "30 is 29.97 and 24 is 23.97?" which is actually a common simplification (just search google for "23.97" and see how many people drop the 6). That means they would be playing the audio back at 23.97 instead of 23.976. The audio would play too fast by 0.006 fps. Well, how long is that? It is about 0.00001044 seconds. That means for each video frame passed straight through, the audio would get 0.00001044 seconds ahead of where it should be. The next question is how many video frames until the audio gets an entire frame ahead? Its 3,996 frames.

3996 frames just happens to be 2 minutes and 46.6667 seconds, which is pretty darn close to what I got on my stopwatch. So every 3996 frames, the audio is one frame ahead and so the Onkyo drops a video frame.

Its just a theory - could be a coincidence, could be an error on the Onkyo that hopefully can be fixed in firmware.
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post #2257 of 3874 Old 01-14-2012, 10:37 PM
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One more question - those of you seeing the dropped frame, are you bitstreaming to the Onkyo or sending PCM?

I am sending PCM always from my Blu-ray player.
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post #2258 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

One more question - those of you seeing the dropped frame, are you bitstreaming to the Onkyo or sending PCM?

I am sending PCM always from my Blu-ray player.

I am using PCM also and have the problem

what needs answering is why its doing anything at all to the video especially in 'skip' mode?

honestly, from what i have found this amp is useless as an AVR which can't be correct

going to try a factory reset and spend some more time on it today
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post #2259 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker View Post


OK sorry have to continue this tomorrow but meantime here is what i have from memory

source is a Smasung BD-D8500 which is playing BD at 1080/24p also HDTV/SD DVD at 1080/50p. also tried a HTPC with same outputs so monitor 'in' is already 1080p

output is either auto or 1080p on the onkyo

whenever a bluray is played then yes 24p is forced by the player

it is not stutter(thats i different issue) but dropped frames and the input/output shown on the display is always the same as the source outputs 1080p already

from my experience with dropped frames this is when the processor drops a frame to keep the sudio in sync. from memory turning lipsinc off on the onkyo drastically reduced the effect but it is still there albeit only noticable to the most decerning eye

I am not prepared to waffle on and off, based on your memories recollection.

But you should start with 1.1 menu item Resolution = Through

And then for each Source, set
4.5 Picture Mode to Direct.

Then Select blu ray film playback, and confirm your video input and video output report the info like I get in ORemote.

Ie input video on HDMI is 1920 x 1080p 24hz, RGB 36 bit
Output is 1920 x 1080p 24hz, RGB 36 bit

Then we have a common ground.

When I have time later, I will aim to put the credits on to check the 2:m:47s anomaly from Bo.
LL
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post #2260 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker View Post

what needs answering is why its doing anything at all to the video especially in 'skip' mode?

What is "skip" mode? There is THROUGH and DIRECT. There is no SKIP.

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post #2261 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 09:02 AM
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post #2262 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

I am not prepared to waffle on and off, based on your memories recollection.

But you should start with 1.1 menu item Resolution = Through

And then for each Source, set
4.5 Picture Mode to Direct.

Then Select blu ray film playback, and confirm your video input and video output report the info like I get in ORemote.

Ie input video on HDMI is 1920 x 1080p 24hz, RGB 36 bit
Output is 1920 x 1080p 24hz, RGB 36 bit

Then we have a common ground.

When I have time later, I will aim to put the credits on to check the 2:m:47s anomaly from Bo.


should this be all of our settings whether we have stutter or not?

my setup:

65" toshiba lcd
tx-nr609
xbox 360
sony bdp-s185
dish network 722k dvr sat


xbox, bluray, sat all hooked directly to 609 with hdmi, hdmi from 609 to tv. optical digital cable from optical out on tv to optical in on 609 per the 609 instruction manual.

my hd channela look awesome. my standard channels look AWFUL!! think i'm gonna try this vcr/dvr and memory button menu and set it to skip any video processing to see if that helps. I did just turn off lip sync finally on the 609, gotta tweek the manual sync a little more to get it right though.

1-1 monitor out is set to 1080p
4-5 picture mode is through

I have no idea about this 1080p/24 stuff, don't know if my bluray can do this or not, nor my tv.... i did set it to 1080p other day just playing and i got a white line along the top of the picture till i went back to 1080p
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post #2263 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 06:06 PM
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Hi, First time poster, long time reader.

Ok, so I recently got the Onkyo TX-NR509 with some Polk RM6750's. Love the setup so far but I am having a problem hooking my xbox 360 up to it for some reason. Here is how I have everything set up so far.

HDMI 1: PS3
HDMI 2: nothing
HDMI 3: Time Warner Cable box
HDMI 4: XBOX 360
HDMI Out: to my Samsung Plasma TV

OK, so the PS3 and cable work perfectly fine, no problems there but for some reason when I select the GAME input, HDMI 4, nothing comes on the screen. I have tried switching it to HDMI 2 as well with no luck. In the HDMI setup screen, all the inputs are correctly assigned so it says GAME: HDMI 4, which is where it is hooked up to. Under Component Video the Blu-ray says IN1, the cable says IN2, and the VCR and GAME say nothing. I tried setting the GAME to IN1 and IN2 with no luck and I have no other options after that. Please somebody help me and let me know what I'm doing wrong here. Thanks
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post #2264 of 3874 Old 01-15-2012, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srslymatt View Post

Ok, so I recently got the Onkyo TX-NR509 with some Polk RM6750's. Love the setup so far but I am having a problem hooking my xbox 360 up to it for some reason.

If GAME says HDMI 4, it should work. Did you verify the front panel of the 609 does say "GAME" when you're trying it?

As a quick test, you might try switching to the PS3 and verifying it is showing an image, and then with your 360 powered on, simply switch the HDMI cable from the PS3 to the 360. If that works, try the reverse of setting it to GAME and then hook the PS3 up to HDMI 4 using the same cable that's NOT working with the 360. If that doesn't work either, try the HDMI cable that does work from PS3 to HDMI 1 on the PS3 to HDMI 4. Also, since you've been playing around with the HDMI assignments, double check them each time you try one of these tests.
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post #2265 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 03:37 AM
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Please can those who notice the dropped/skipped frames fault with the 609 report it to ONKYO.
Hopefully they will put some urgency on this and fix with firmware.
The alternative is a flood of returns as currently it is unfit for purpose

this is my complaint:

This unit is dropping/skipping frames on video every few minutes!!
I am not the only person to discover this and it is being discussed on forums. Collectively we have all tried every setting available and concluded this unit is at fault. Even bypassing the video processor does not resolve the problem.
Is there a firmware update that can fix this problem?
If not can you please explain how we can receive a refund as unfortunately it is unfit for purpose. I am aware of at least one customer who has had a replacement unit with the same fault and judging by those complaining it is not a random issue.

Thanks
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post #2266 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevenW View Post


should this be all of our settings whether we have stutter or not?

my setup:

65" toshiba lcd
tx-nr609
xbox 360
sony bdp-s185
dish network 722k dvr sat

xbox, bluray, sat all hooked directly to 609 with hdmi, hdmi from 609 to tv. optical digital cable from optical out on tv to optical in on 609 per the 609 instruction manual.

my hd channela look awesome. my standard channels look AWFUL!! think i'm gonna try this vcr/dvr and memory button menu and set it to skip any video processing to see if that helps. I did just turn off lip sync finally on the 609, gotta tweek the manual sync a little more to get it right though.

1-1 monitor out is set to 1080p
4-5 picture mode is through

I have no idea about this 1080p/24 stuff, don't know if my bluray can do this or not, nor my tv.... i did set it to 1080p other day just playing and i got a white line along the top of the picture till i went back to 1080p

If you set all all your inputs to be output 1080P then if you get a 1080p/24 signal (BR), then you may have a problem.

You should look to control each Source input individually. 4.5 Through is not Direct. Use Direct for your HD sources.

And I don't see a need to use an undocumented setting with "VCR/Return"

I am not sure why people are reluctant to report in the video Input /Output data, ref ORemote jpg I included, but their reluctance to provide data may be all you need know.
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post #2267 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

If you set all all your inputs to be output 1080P then if you get a 1080p/24 signal (BR), then you may have a problem.

You should look to control each Source input individually. 4.5 Through is not Direct. Use Direct for your HD sources.

And I don't see a need to use an undocumented setting with "VCR/Return"

I am not sure why people are reluctant to report in the video Input /Output data, ref ORemote jpg I included, but their reluctance to provide data may be all you need know.

not sure what you mean by that?

I am not reluctant at all and dont see what further info you are looking for?
as far as i am aware ALL BD players output 1080p24, which is correct assuming your display device can handle it.
So this should be the norm for an AVR to get as an input source, correct

output on the 609 is set to 'through' as per your guidance and 'direct' is selected. this is when the fault occurs. bypassing the amp eliminates the problem and to my mind proves the amp is to fault

therfore: the input is always 1080p24 as is the output for BD material and 1080p/50 for TV and SD DVD
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post #2268 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 07:27 AM
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Your posts so far have not confirmed your settings (other than from memory), nor have you confirmed the display settings of the AVR (for both input and output).

Did you repeat the "Credits" stutter from Bo, and can confirm your issue is identical?

My point is, I have not seen you post saying the AVR sees 1080P/24 coming in, and is pushing out 1080P/24P, as reported by it, not your TV.

I am trying to get information from the AVR, not what your BR, TV or you think is happening.
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post #2269 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

Your posts so far have not confirmed your settings (other than from memory), nor have you confirmed the display settings of the AVR (for both input and output).

Did you repeat the "Credits" stutter from Bo, and can confirm your issue is identical?

My point is, I have not seen you post saying the AVR sees 1080P/24 coming in, and is pushing out 1080P/24P, as reported by it, not your TV.

I am trying to get information from the AVR, not what your BR, TV or you think is happening.

The info i have posted ARE what the amp is saying ie: 1080p24 in and 1080p out
i do see it in the credits test but cannot tie it down to a specific interval like Bo, it just seems random
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post #2270 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker View Post

The info i have posted ARE what the amp is saying ie: 1080p24 in and 1080p out
i do see it in the credits test but cannot tie it down to a specific interval like Bo, it just seems random

Please show me which post you state "my amp display is showing...." because I cannot find it.

So, by pressing "Display" on the Onkyo RC you now confirm that your 609 is converting from 1080P/24 to 1080P?

And you get judder?

As you can see from my previous jpg, I got the output of my AVR to be 1080P 24HZ (for a 1080P/24 input). I get no judder.

I am giving up trying to help, its like pulling teeth!
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post #2271 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

As you can see from my previous jpg, I got the output of my AVR to be 1080P 24HZ (for a 1080P/24 input). I get no judder.

I am giving up trying to help, its like pulling teeth!

I don't see what these guys are seeing with my 24Hz sources either!

I also wonder how many of these guys have got their display devices "post processing" options activated as well

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post #2272 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 01:27 PM
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I need to make the correct settings for my parents 609.

1) I need to change the resolution for the source to through
2) Change the picture adjust to direct
3) Follow the instructions in this post to disable the video processor of the unit.

Is that correct? I'm having audio sync issues with the TV which I can probably iron out with adjusting the delay. I'm quite disappointed that the auto LipSync doesn't work. But more importantly I'm getting this strange stuttering effect unless I turn on the Motion Processing in the set. Something must be happening to the signal as it goes from my PS3 -> 609 -> Samsung TV.

Are those settings above the correct settings to change?
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post #2273 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fdas View Post

I need to make the correct settings for my parents 609.

1) I need to change the resolution for the source to through
2) Change the picture adjust to direct
3) Follow the instructions in this post to disable the video processor of the unit.

Is that correct? I'm having audio sync issues with the TV which I can probably iron out with adjusting the delay. I'm quite disappointed that the auto LipSync doesn't work. But more importantly I'm getting this strange stuttering effect unless I turn on the Motion Processing in the set. Something must be happening to the signal as it goes from my PS3 -> 609 -> Samsung TV.

Are those settings above the correct settings to change?

1) - You need to change the Menu Item 1.1 :- Resolution in I/O Assign>Monitor Out to "Through" - see picture.
2) - In Menu Item 4.5, you need to change Picture Adjust to "Direct".

The second one has to be repeated for all your HD sources - assuming you are trying to NOT use the video processing.

And hence, your 3), the undocumented video Processing OFF, is not required.

Have you observed the "stuttering effect" first hand yet?
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post #2274 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 02:13 PM
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Yes, I have seen it myself. The stuttering effect happens if I turn off the motion processing on the TV [which I would prefer], however that may be an issue with that TV. I would like to make sure I'm sending over an unchanged signal from my PS3 through to the TV.

The audio sync issue I also noticed first hand. It got better when I turned off LipSync, but I think it will still require fine tuning with the audio sync controls.

Where do I check to confirm that the AVR is passing 1080p/24 to the TV? Is there a button on the remote or the actual unit to verify that?
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post #2275 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fdas View Post

Where do I check to confirm that the AVR is passing 1080p/24 to the TV? Is there a button on the remote or the actual unit to verify that?

Try pressing the "Display" button on the Onkyo remote...

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post #2276 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 02:55 PM
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Without using some apps like ORemote, how can one figure out exactly which video res/freq comes IN and OUT off the AV receiver?
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post #2277 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

I don't see what these guys are seeing with my 24Hz sources either!

I sure hope it turns out my unit is defective!

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I also wonder how many of these guys have got their display devices "post processing" options activated as well

I have yet to see any display that doesn't have some form of post-processing. Either way, I'd never give up my color temperature, grayscale, and gamma calibration to fix a dropped frame - that would be even worse.
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post #2278 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman View Post

Without using some apps like ORemote, how can one figure out exactly which video res/freq comes IN and OUT off the AV receiver?

Again... Try pressing the "Display" button on the Onkyo remote...

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post #2279 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

Again... Try pressing the "Display" button on the Onkyo remote...

In any case, if I choose 'through' and 'direct' in the appropriate menu's, the receiver should be passing the signal through untouched, and I should have nothing to worry about, right?
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post #2280 of 3874 Old 01-16-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fdas View Post

In any case, if I choose 'through' and 'direct' in the appropriate menu's, the receiver should be passing the signal through untouched, and I should have nothing to worry about, right?

Indeed...

But if you are still having issues. Try switching off ALL your TV's post processing options, such as: Energy Saving (Eco) modes, Intellegent Frame Creation, PNR, Colour Management, 100Hz processing, 200Hz processing, etc?

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