The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 432 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12931 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 01:46 AM
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I know this is beating a dead..... but I'm still trying to understand why bi-amping doesn't gain you more headroom or audio-quality. I know the FAQ says so, and lots of replies in the past year have reiterated that "passive bi-amping" is worthless, but then the details have gone off-the-rails with technical details.

Is the issue: That the limiting factor is the *shared* part of the amplifier design rather than the individual 'amplifier' outputs? I would also assume that the shared part of the design was capable of putting out far more power than an individual channel was designed to do. Assuming that, if you compare:
1. a single speaker connected to a single channel
2. that same single speaker but with the woofer separately linked to one channel while the tweeter was separately linked to a 2nd channel
Why wouldn't you have more available power?

If, however, each individual channel is capable of max'ing the shared part of the design, then it's clear that spreading the load across two channels would not help. But is that the case??
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post #12932 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 03:50 AM
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^^
Yup, you've got a defective unit there for sure. The serial number should be located on the box the AVR came in and can also be determined by doing the procedure listed in post #6 to determine the firmware version.

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post #12933 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 04:07 AM
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^^
AFAIK, the serial number should display before the firmware versions which is what you posted. It should be a 10 or 11 digit number that begins with "1" if you purchased the AVR last year. If not, as I said, just check the outside of the box.

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post #12934 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackscorpio View Post

but from what I read, lot of people like their cables but not the banana plugs and anyway, I already bought these.

so, any clues on how do I plug them in? I afraid to put more pressure to insert them in. Do I need to unscrew before I insert the bp or what?

I have Silverbacks and didn't have a problem. The speaker connector should be screwed in tight. You do need to exert a fair amount of pressure when inserting the banana plug. At first, I thought it might not work, but they were fine with a little extra force.

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post #12935 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackscorpio View Post

Does these banana plugs fit the 2112CI.

I bought those and couldn't fit them. I don't think there is a plastic lug that need to be removed to use the banana plugs. so, how? or did I order wrong ones?

Yes.. I use them on my 2312, they are snug but that is a good thing.
I have had my 2312 out of the cabinet twice and the plugs were easily removed and installed again without issue.
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post #12936 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackscorpio View Post

Does these banana plugs fit the 2112CI.

I bought those and couldn't fit them. I don't think there is a plastic lug that need to be removed to use the banana plugs. so, how? or did I order wrong ones?

Although I didn't try these on my 2312, I did on my Def Tech 1000's and do not like that they do not plug in nice and snug. I have placed a good amount of pressure on them, but they do not seem to fit well at all. Having said that, I have not had any trouble with them.

As the other poster mentioned, just screw in the speaker terminal all the way and then plug them in. I would expect them to stick out, but would be very surprised if they didn't work.
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post #12937 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 05:13 AM
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Is the volume level from say -5db to 20db linear? I have not turned up the 2312 past about -3db (and only watching Uverse without much of a surround broadcast) and was wondering how much 'louder' the system will go while watching a movie. Is it safe to push the receiver to +5,+ 10, +15db???

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post #12938 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsalsero View Post

I know this is beating a dead..... but I'm still trying to understand why bi-amping doesn't gain you more headroom or audio-quality. I know the FAQ says so, and lots of replies in the past year have reiterated that "passive bi-amping" is worthless, but then the details have gone off-the-rails with technical details.

Is the issue: That the limiting factor is the *shared* part of the amplifier design rather than the individual 'amplifier' outputs? I would also assume that the shared part of the design was capable of putting out far more power than an individual channel was designed to do. Assuming that, if you compare:
1. a single speaker connected to a single channel
2. that same single speaker but with the woofer separately linked to one channel while the tweeter was separately linked to a 2nd channel
Why wouldn't you have more available power?

If, however, each individual channel is capable of max'ing the shared part of the design, then it's clear that spreading the load across two channels would not help. But is that the case??

Let's say each channel is capable of 100W. You have to remember that your crossover network in your speakers is basically a resistor. On your tweeter you have a resistor on the low frequency stuff, and on the woofer, there is basically a resistor on the high frequency stuff.

If you have 1 amp set up the normal way, since electricity follows the paths of least resistance, the high frequency stuff finds it's way to the tweeter and the low frequency stuff to the woofer and you can use all 100W of the signal.

In a passive bi-amp configuration, you are sending the same full-range signal to both the tweeter and the woofer. The tweeter is discarding the bottom "half" of that signal because of the crossover and therefore is only using "half" of it, and the woofer is discarding the top "half" of its signal and therefore only using "half" of it as well, so you are back to having only 100W to each speaker.

I'm over simplifying quite a bit since crossovers aren't brick walls and the HF and LF parts of the signal aren't exactly 1/2 and 1/2, etc, but that's the gist as I understand it.

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post #12939 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 05:25 AM
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Hi
Newbie poster but longer time lurker. This forum helped me decide to grab a 2112 for new system. I've got Polk RTi A3 Fronts, Csi 4 center and RTi 4s for the back (all new) - 12g wire to all.

My SW however is the issue. Before this, I was using the JBL ESC 333 HT and it has served me well (over 10 yrs old). I has a coaxial in (and spdif) so I thought it would be a simple matter to hook the coax preamp form the 2112 out to the sub but I cannot get any sound out of it. Now to be fair, I do not have a 'labeled' coax cable as I don't have one in the house and haven't found a shop yet that carries it (I live in Doha, Qatar). I tried the yellow rca, I tried the composite cables, but no noise yet. The test tone goes to all the other speakers but there is no tone for the sub. I've checked out multiple other sources direct to the sub - no problem (using the cables I listed above). I've even bumped all the crossovers up to 250 hz to see if I could get anything - no.

So I'm left with 3 possibilities - 1. the 2112 is very fussy about what type of cable (I just read on another thread that is a possibility) 2. my preamp needs a post mortem. or 3. the 2112 sends a signal that my SW can't recognize (unlikely). I'm really hoping it's #1 b/c the shipping from here to the US for fixing is prohibitive (not to mention the raised eyebrow by my wife).

Any suggestions would be helpful. I do believe I can find a 'proper' coax cable here if I need to (or ship it in via Amazon). Or I can purchase the PA SW to cut the losses.

Is there any way to check and see if the coax preamp is sending any signal? Voltage meter? I'm not an electrical guy so maybe that's a stupid question.

Thanks for any help.
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post #12940 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 06:37 AM
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The JBL sub isn't a standard sub. It doesn't appear to have a sub input - it only has analog and digital inputs meant to take a full-range signal.

It sounds like you're trying to plug your Sub Out from the receiver to the "Coaxial" input on the JBL sub. The "coaxial" input is a digital SPDIF input meant for multichannel audio input. The Sub Out from the receiver is mono analog audio.

You should be plugging the cable into the Left input next to "Analog Inputs" and "TV."
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post #12941 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 06:49 AM
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^^
Good catch.

@molechi - That sub is only 65W and designed to be used with the HTIB. You would be much better served selling that JBL setup and purchasing a stand alone sub that is designed to be connected to an AVR sub pre-out.

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post #12942 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You would be much better served selling that JBL setup and purchasing a stand alone sub that is designed to be connected to an AVR sub pre-out.

Yes, that too.
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post #12943 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 07:43 AM
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Wow, you guys are fast. Thanks for your suggestions - I will try switching the cable tonight. I figured there was something a little different with the inputs on the JBL but I'm glad someone can give me the full explanation. Want to buy a JBL system? I will try and sell it though I doubt I can get much for it (the remote isn't 100% and one satellite signal is gone - I guess I should just call it a day considering 10 years of service). I was also going to use the JBL satellites for Zone 2 in the kitchen. They max out at 35w so I'd have to be careful about volume. My wife would like to have the zone 2 to play music when the kids are watching TV. Thanks again - I'll let you know if it makes a difference.
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post #12944 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

Is the volume level from say -5db to 20db linear? I have not turned up the 2312 past about -3db (and only watching Uverse without much of a surround broadcast) and was wondering how much 'louder' the system will go while watching a movie. Is it safe to push the receiver to +5,+ 10, +15db???

the decibel scale is logarithmic, not linear. That means going up 10dB requires 10x the power.

it's impossible to say what is "safe" though as it will depend on the specifics of your speakers, room size, etc. A good rule of thumb is that if it sounds good, you are safe. The "unsafe" stuff -- distortion, clipping, etc. -- will be audible as things will sound harsh, strained, distorted...

that said there should never be any reason to go above 0dB on the dial with movies, as that is equivalent to "reference level" (i.e. the same SPL you would be hearing in a theater or dubbing stage) and there is no practical reason to watch a movie louder than that. Also note that if you are trying to crank it you should make sure Dyn Vol is OFF as that will restrict the volume, meaning you are fighting the processing when trying to turn the vol up.

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post #12945 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

So setting up my Harmony for the 2312CI and everything going pretty well. A couple of questions - 1. Is there a button on the stock remote that will call up a screen to show the current status of the source (i.e. Dolby digital, etc. etc.). I have already programmed Ch Level and Menu for every source but wonder if there is a button that shows status.

2. I plan on getting another Harmony remote to allow me to download older versions of Denon receivers so I can learn more useful commands. What model(s) of older/newer Denons have very useful buttons and what buttons would you consider a must to have on a remote (another poster said that even though buttons aren't on the newer remotes the commands from older (and newer) Denon remotes still work)? THanks!

1. the new xx13 models have added an "info" button to the stock remote that should do what you want. As a test, try adding an xx13 model (e.g. 2313ci) to your Harmony and see if you can find an "info" or "status" button that calls up the on-screen info. If you find the right command, you can use the second Harmony to teach it to the main Harmony and add it to the primary Denon device profile.

2. it's really going to be a trial-and-error thing as there is no comprehensive list, but in general the Harmony profiles will attempt to mimic the factory remote. So you can get an idea by browsing manuals of older models and seeing what buttons are on the remote.

for example, older models had a "Speaker" button on the remote which switches A/B speakers, but this doesn't exist in newer models. IF you can find an older model with this button on the remote, then you can be confident it will be in the Harmony profile.

in terms of Audyssey buttons there have been a few iterations throughout the years (since the xxx9 models when Dyn EQ/Vol first appeared). There has always been a "MultEQ" button which toggles between the various room EQ presets (Audyssey, Flat, Bypass, OFF, Manual) but the Dyn EQ/Vol buttons have varied. On some models there is a separate button that turns Dyn EQ on/off and another that turns Dyn Vol on/off.... on other models there is a single button that cycles Dyn EQ/Vol OFF > Dyn EQ on w/ Dyn Vol off > Dyn EQ & Vol both ON (3 states, but cannot choose Dyn Vol mode)... and on other models there is a button that cycles between the 5 possible states (Dyn EQ/Vol OFF > Dyn EQ on with Dyn Vol off > Dyn EQ/Vol Midnight > Dyn EQ/Vol Evening > Dyn EQ/Vol Day).

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post #12946 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:21 AM
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How long will an AVR-790 retain it's setup memory? Today I am swapping out my faithful 790 and moving up to a new 3312CI that was delivered yesterday. It took a lot of work over the past two years to get the 790 setup just the way I like it (input names and assignments etc) and I'd like to keep the 790 "alive" for sometime in the future when I may want to move it to the bedroom, which I suspect won't be right away. Initially I will likely setup the 3312 to function just like the 790.

Do I need to keep the 790 plugged in, and if so can I keep it powered off, not just in standby, to retain its settings long term? I remember some years ago I unplugged everything to go on vacation and the AVR (at that time not the 790) lost all of its settings. I'd like to avoid going thru that again. Thanks.

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post #12947 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1. the new xx13 models have added an "info" button to the stock remote that should do what you want. As a test, try adding an xx13 model (e.g. 2313ci) to your Harmony and see if you can find an "info" or "status" button that calls up the on-screen info. If you find the right command, you can use the second Harmony to teach it to the main Harmony and add it to the primary Denon device profile.

2. it's really going to be a trial-and-error thing as there is no comprehensive list, but in general the Harmony profiles will attempt to mimic the factory remote. So you can get an idea by browsing manuals of older models and seeing what buttons are on the remote.

for example, older models had a "Speaker" button on the remote which switches A/B speakers, but this doesn't exist in newer models. IF you can find an older model with this button on the remote, then you can be confident it will be in the Harmony profile.

in terms of Audyssey buttons there have been a few iterations throughout the years (since the xxx9 models when Dyn EQ/Vol first appeared). There has always been a "MultEQ" button which toggles between the various room EQ presets (Audyssey, Flat, Bypass, OFF, Manual) but the Dyn EQ/Vol buttons have varied. On some models there is a separate button that turns Dyn EQ on/off and another that turns Dyn Vol on/off.... on other models there is a single button that cycles Dyn EQ/Vol OFF > Dyn EQ on w/ Dyn Vol off > Dyn EQ & Vol both ON (3 states, but cannot choose Dyn Vol mode)... and on other models there is a button that cycles between the 5 possible states (Dyn EQ/Vol OFF > Dyn EQ on with Dyn Vol off > Dyn EQ/Vol Midnight > Dyn EQ/Vol Evening > Dyn EQ/Vol Day).

Here's some of the cool 889 buttons I need to put into my 2312ci profile:

Dynamic Volume Button
Night Button
MultiEQ Buttion

I think I can just learn them from the 889 remote.

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post #12948 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Correct you can just use the learning function to teach them to the harmony. Don't bother with the "night" button though, night mode doesn't exist anymore as it has been obsoleted by Dyn Vol.

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post #12949 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:49 AM
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Ok, it worked - awesome... I'm sure you all suspect that the bass isn't as clear as it could be and I'd say that's right but I don't have to buy a new sub right now so I'm happy (I need more points from the ministry of finance before getting something else). Thanks again for your help.
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post #12950 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Correct you can just use the learning function to teach them to the harmony. Don't bother with the "night" button though, night mode doesn't exist anymore as it has been obsoleted by Dyn Vol.

Okay. Thanks. So I get Day, Evening and Midnight by toggling the button or does it bring up the OSD at the buried location where this setting resides. It is sort of lame on Denon's part to put such a usefull function buried down several menu levels. Note that previously I said I didn't hear much difference but after playing with it for a while longer, I stand corrected.

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post #12951 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:03 AM
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Hi everyone,

Just ordered the 1612 refurb and it will be my first A/V receiver, so I am a complete noob. I read the manual but, honestly, I am confused by a lot of the info. So I was wondering if anybody could tell me what the best settings would be for running a 2-channel set up, as I will only have front speakers for a while. I am planning to connect a directtv received, a streaming media player (boxee box), and a LP player (analogue).


Thanks in advance for any help you may offer--

T.
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post #12952 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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No special settings needed. Just hook up your speakers, run auto setup to calibrate and enjoy!

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post #12953 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:07 AM
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Okay. Thanks. So I get Day, Evening and Midnight by toggling the button

^^ this
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post #12954 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

I get AirPlay to show up in my iPad and my Denon is identified on the iPad, but what do I do to get the pics/music to go thru the Denon? What 'source' do I select on the Denon or what button do I push on the remote to get AirPlay to work? Can't find info anywhere in manual or answered.

Did you get this figured out?
Which Denon AVR do you have?

Tap the airplay icon on your device and select the Denon as the playback destination. Once you tap play on your device, the Denon will switch to USB/Net and start playing the audio.

Only audio (not video or pictures) will play through the receiver. To get pictures and video, you'll have to get Apple's AppleTV.
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post #12955 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


that said there should never be any reason to go above 0dB on the dial with movies, as that is equivalent to "reference level" (i.e. the same SPL you would be hearing in a theater or dubbing stage)

so is reference level =75 or 85 dbs? Is the sub channel 10dbs louder than other channels? I read somewhere that it is?
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post #12956 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

So I get Day, Evening and Midnight by toggling the button

read the post of mine you quote -- the function of the Dyn EQ/Vol button depends on the model year. You will have to experiment a bit to figure out how it works.

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post #12957 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

so is reference level =75 or 85 dbs? Is the sub channel 10dbs louder than other channels? I read somewhere that it is?

"reference" is not any specific volume, it just means that you hear the sound at the same level as it was recorded. For example, if you are listening at "reference" then if the mixer put a particular explosion at 95dB, then you will also hear it at 95dB.

the only definition of reference is that a "full scale" signal (the max allowed) is 105dB in each channel, with an extra 10dB of headroom in the LFE channel (115dB max / full scale). The test tones in the receiver are -30dBfs (30 decibels below full scale) so they should calibrate at 75dB (105 minus 30).

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post #12958 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:49 AM
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I have a 2112CI and I wanted to hook up two subwoofers to it, could I just buy a y-cable and then just hook them both up as normal and make sure both volumes are set exactly the same?
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post #12959 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:53 AM
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^^^

yes, essentially...

there's a lot more to optimizing them than that though... sure you want to go down this rabbit hole? it can bring great rewards, but it can also be, ummmm, challenging at times...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #12960 of 19670 Old 06-01-2012, 09:54 AM
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So, it will downmix multichannel to stereo automatically? and is there a mode to make it sound like 5.1 even though it is stereo? I thought I read something about virtual mode.

Thanks!

T.
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