The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX12 Model Owner's Thread - Page 529 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15841 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 01:50 PM
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Are all Denon models made in Japan? Im thinking of switching from Onkyo to Denon. I like the networking features of onkyo better(spotify/slacker) but I dont trust their shoddy construction. The problems with onkyo + HDMI regardless of model have been present for many years. Id like to get something that lasts as I dont upgrade for at least 10+ years. Denon's discreet amps and audyssey multieq xt seems like a winner to me. The GUI seems easy to navigate too. Ive actually never heard a new Denon AVR so I dont know how to compare to Onkyo for sound.
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post #15842 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 01:56 PM
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no...

"discrete"...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #15843 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:03 PM
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Pimp - I was shopping for an Onkyo and ended up buying a Denon because the Onk ran too hot.

Sysfail - the A5's are good speakers if your room isn't too large. As I said, I have A5's in the bedroom and they sound great. I like the sound of the A7's and ran them for several months before buying A9's, but not because they sound any better, but because we are moving and will have a larger living room. For now I'm still powering them with a 90wpc Denon 1910. BTW I rarely ever use Dyn Vol and only occasionally use Dyn Eq. Some material seems to need it, while others do not.

Polk RtiA9's, Denon 4520 & Emo XPA-5, CsiA6, RtiA7 surrounds, FxiA6 rears, twin Klipsch Synergy Sub-12's. Family room: RtiA3's & Rti4 surrounds, Csi3, Klipsch SW-450, Yamaha 565... Bedroom: Lsi9's on an Onkyo TX-8050
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post #15844 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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@ pimp --- no, only the high end 4xxx level models are made in Japan, the rest say "Made in China". This doesn't really concern me though.

note that the newer xx13 models have Spotify support. And the GUI is easier to navigate and more logical as well. I wouldn't expect a huge difference in sound quality as they both use Audyssey MultEQ for calibration.

while I applaud your intent, the old mindset of "the receiver should last 10+ years" isn't really as applicable anymore in the modern landscape. Technology is just shifting so rapidly... my advice in general is to get the cheapest receiver with at least MultEQ (preferably XT) that meets your feature needs, and just expect to upgrade in a shorter timeframe because there will be new features coming so rapidly. The "cheapest" part will make that path less painless.

Paying more for a top-end receiver in the hopes of it being more "future proof" isn't really a sound strategy anymore. That's why you are seeing the death of $5,000 "flagship" models from major brands. It's too much of an investment for technology that will soon be outdated. Back in the day, when all you really had to worry about was getting beefy amps and digital decoding of DD/DTS signals, you could follow that strategy, but it's so much tougher these days. If you require a ton of power, I'd rather invest in good external amps and then just modify the strategy above to include pre-amp outs; then you can just upgrade the processor when you want some new features.

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post #15845 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

no...

"discrete"...

maybe he actually wants amps that are tasteful, prudent, and neither ostentatious nor obtrusive? tongue.gif

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post #15846 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:29 PM
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^^^

lol... i needed that laugh... smile.gif

i want big honkin MANLY amps... biggrin.gif

- chris

 

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post #15847 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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hope you are weathering the storm out there in the toxic waste dumps! smile.gif

not sure what all the fuss is about though, it's 75 degrees and sunny here in San Diego? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

(just kidding of course, I hope everyone stays safe!)

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post #15848 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
the a9's are not any more difficult to drive than the a5's, at least according to the specs... both are 8 ohm, 90db efficiency... both can be driven by virtually any avr to rather ear splitting levels...
two things "matter" in sound reproduction... the speakers and their interaction with your room...
also,
if you hope to stop upgrading, after you buy your next thing, stop coming to avs and have them delete your acocunt... tongue.gif otherwise, it never ends...

Good idea, I should really get off these forums, it's Head-fi.org all over again, those forums made me spend tons of money on headphone gear. mad.gif Though I finally ended up satisfied with everything I have and finally got off the forums. rolleyes.gif

I thought more drivers = harder to drive? A5 has 2 woofers + tweeter and A9 has 5 woofers + tweeter. Quite a big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Pimp - I was shopping for an Onkyo and ended up buying a Denon because the Onk ran too hot.
Sysfail - the A5's are good speakers if your room isn't too large. As I said, I have A5's in the bedroom and they sound great. I like the sound of the A7's and ran them for several months before buying A9's, but not because they sound any better, but because we are moving and will have a larger living room. For now I'm still powering them with a 90wpc Denon 1910. BTW I rarely ever use Dyn Vol and only occasionally use Dyn Eq. Some material seems to need it, while others do not.

Ok, I'll experiment with those settings. Jumping from the A5 to the A9 is double the price. Probably not double the performance though huh? Wish you guys could just tell me that the Monitor 70s are the best so I won't want to spend more money. tongue.gif
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post #15849 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:47 PM
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@batpig...

can i come stay with you? tongue.gif

hanging in there... this is NOT pretty.... frown.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #15850 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sysfail View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
the a9's are not any more difficult to drive than the a5's, at least according to the specs... both are 8 ohm, 90db efficiency... both can be driven by virtually any avr to rather ear splitting levels...
two things "matter" in sound reproduction... the speakers and their interaction with your room...
also,
if you hope to stop upgrading, after you buy your next thing, stop coming to avs and have them delete your acocunt... tongue.gif otherwise, it never ends...

Good idea, I should really get off these forums, it's Head-fi.org all over again, those forums made me spend tons of money on headphone gear. mad.gif Though I finally ended up satisfied with everything I have and finally got off the forums. rolleyes.gif

I thought more drivers = harder to drive? A5 has 2 woofers + tweeter and A9 has 5 woofers + tweeter. Quite a big difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Pimp - I was shopping for an Onkyo and ended up buying a Denon because the Onk ran too hot.
Sysfail - the A5's are good speakers if your room isn't too large. As I said, I have A5's in the bedroom and they sound great. I like the sound of the A7's and ran them for several months before buying A9's, but not because they sound any better, but because we are moving and will have a larger living room. For now I'm still powering them with a 90wpc Denon 1910. BTW I rarely ever use Dyn Vol and only occasionally use Dyn Eq. Some material seems to need it, while others do not.

Ok, I'll experiment with those settings. Jumping from the A5 to the A9 is double the price. Probably not double the performance though huh? Wish you guys could just tell me that the Monitor 70s are the best so I won't want to spend more money. tongue.gif

nope... more drivers don't necessarily make them harder to drive... actually, it can make them easier to drive, depending on xover design, etc.

like many things about speakers, it can be a bit counterintuitive... for example, many will assume that a tower speaker is harder to drive than a bookshelf... when (all other things being equal, such as driver efficiency) towers are actually easier to drive...

sadly, after a certain price pont is reached (and that price point is pretty low), you rarely get "double the performance for double the money" (subwoofers can be a notable exception to this)... the old adage of "the last 5% accounts for 95% of the cost" is very true...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #15851 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 03:40 PM
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"discrete" Thanks.... Dicks! wink.gif I really do not need high power or anything I just want a solid AVR. I might pay the extra cash for the made Japan models. That seems like a bargain anymore for something to be made in Japan. I didnt even know you could get a model made in Japan until today. maybe Ill just wait to get a good deal on a refurb model.
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post #15852 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

nope... more drivers don't necessarily make them harder to drive... actually, it can make them easier to drive, depending on xover design, etc.
like many things about speakers, it can be a bit counterintuitive... for example, many will assume that a tower speaker is harder to drive than a bookshelf... when (all other things being equal, such as driver efficiency) towers are actually easier to drive...
sadly, after a certain price pont is reached (and that price point is pretty low), you rarely get "double the performance for double the money" (subwoofers can be a notable exception to this)... the old adage of "the last 5% accounts for 95% of the cost" is very true...

I see, thanks for the help. So the Monitor series is probably more "bang for your buck" compared to the RTi series since performance most likely doesn't double jumping from the Monitor series to the RTi series. Well I think I should refrain myself from spending another huge batch of money on upgrades, I barely just got the Denon AVR-1612, Monitor 70s, and PSW-505 and already have upgraditis. tongue.gif It's not to say I don't like what I have right now, I like them very much so, but I just can't help wondering what else is out there. rolleyes.gif

I'll scratch out upgrading the speakers for now, and I'll probably get a Denon AVR-2112ci in the near future to get the MultEQ XT. (Good choice? Or should I be looking at another receiver?)

Thanks again.
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post #15853 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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note that the xx12 models are now discontinued and there are newer, xx13 models. The 2113ci is a great bang for the buck if you are looking to upgrade, you get MultEQ XT, lots of network features, upgraded GUI, 3-year warranty, etc. You can check out the new models in the beginning of the xx13 owner's thread (also linked there are my reviews of the 2113ci including video if you want to see the GUI in action): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq

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post #15854 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 05:24 PM
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Weird they have separate production in Japan. I wonder what the difference is? Maybe it's like their $500 CAT5 1.5M "Audiophile" cable for denon link LOL Maybe 2113 would fit the bill better as it has spotify. Do any Denons connect to slacker? Seems Onkyo is more liberal with their net connectivity
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post #15855 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 05:40 PM
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Hoping to find a solution to my problem, but I have my doubts.
Setup:
TV: Samsung LN40C500 - not hdmi control or cec or arc. Only input connected is the HDMI from the AVR-3312
AVR: Denon AVR 3312
Blu-ray: Sony bdp-s570
DVR/Cable: Cisco CHS-435hdc
I have my monitor 1 out to the TV from the AVR-3312, the rest are HDMI straight to the DVR. I am using HDMI Control on the AVR to allow the standby source for HDMI-3, which is where the cable/dvr is connected. Everything to this regard operates great.
I also have HDMI Control set to 'ON' for the BDP-S570. What this allows me to do is, while watching the DVR/Cable, and TV on, I can turn on the blu-ray and it will automatically change the input source to the blu-ray player. Very nice. However, once I turn the blu-ray player off after finishing, it doesn't automatically switch back to the already-on cisco box.
Is there a way for the AVR to switch this back without turning the AVR on?
bump
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post #15856 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

note that the xx12 models are now discontinued and there are newer, xx13 models. The 2113ci is a great bang for the buck if you are looking to upgrade, you get MultEQ XT, lots of network features, upgraded GUI, 3-year warranty, etc. You can check out the new models in the beginning of the xx13 owner's thread (also linked there are my reviews of the 2113ci including video if you want to see the GUI in action): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq

Oh yeah I know, but I can get a refurbished Denon 2112ci for about $390 shipped. A refurbished 2113ci would be about $30 more and a "like new" open box 2113ci would be about $40 more. Is it worth the extra money to get the 2113ci rather than the 2112ci? (I'm looking at Acessories4less and Electronics-expo for the pricing)
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post #15857 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sysfail View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

nope... more drivers don't necessarily make them harder to drive... actually, it can make them easier to drive, depending on xover design, etc.
like many things about speakers, it can be a bit counterintuitive... for example, many will assume that a tower speaker is harder to drive than a bookshelf... when (all other things being equal, such as driver efficiency) towers are actually easier to drive...
sadly, after a certain price pont is reached (and that price point is pretty low), you rarely get "double the performance for double the money" (subwoofers can be a notable exception to this)... the old adage of "the last 5% accounts for 95% of the cost" is very true...

I see, thanks for the help. So the Monitor series is probably more "bang for your buck" compared to the RTi series since performance most likely doesn't double jumping from the Monitor series to the RTi series. Well I think I should refrain myself from spending another huge batch of money on upgrades, I barely just got the Denon AVR-1612, Monitor 70s, and PSW-505 and already have upgraditis. tongue.gif It's not to say I don't like what I have right now, I like them very much so, but I just can't help wondering what else is out there. rolleyes.gif

I'll scratch out upgrading the speakers for now, and I'll probably get a Denon AVR-2112ci in the near future to get the MultEQ XT. (Good choice? Or should I be looking at another receiver?)

Thanks again.

you are welcome... smile.gif

well... i dunno on bang for the buck... hard to say... i'm not at all familiar with polks, so i don't know how the various models compare...

i will say one thing... i've never regretted spending money on speakers... just because you don't get "double the performance" doesn't mean they aren't "worth" double (or even 4 or 5 times) the price... imo, you can easily go to $5k a pair (in the id market) without reaching the point of diminishing returns... and depending on your needs, even more...

what i'm getting to is "spend as much as you can on your speakers"... even if you have to swallow really hard to do it...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #15858 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 07:08 PM
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How to do a quick "tone" adjustment?

I have the 2312ci all set up with 7.1 speakers, Audyssey calibration, etc etc. But sometimes, a recording just asks for more (or less) bass/treble/midrange or whatever.

Is there a quick and easy way to adjust these (or maybe even finer control like the old "graphic equalizers" from amps of yesteryear's)?

If so, how would I easily restore the Audyssey settings after I was done listening to whatever that needed this temporary tone control adjustment?
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post #15859 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Correct. HDMI-CEC must be enabled on the TV as well as HDMI Control enabled on the AVR; however, note that Panasonic TVs will only pass stereo 2.0 over the ARC(HDMI) whereas if you connect an optical cable from the TV, you'll be able to also pass DD 5.1 (eg. Netflix movies) in addition to avoiding the hassle of the AVR always switching to the TV input when first powered on.

wow, thats a no brainer, ill order the optical cable for sure. what mode do i put the avr on to broadcast the audio from the optical cable/tv? and the 2112 does have an optical cable port, correct?
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post #15860 of 19703 Old 10-29-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

you are welcome... smile.gif
well... i dunno on bang for the buck... hard to say... i'm not at all familiar with polks, so i don't know how the various models compare...
i will say one thing... i've never regretted spending money on speakers... just because you don't get "double the performance" doesn't mean they aren't "worth" double (or even 4 or 5 times) the price... imo, you can easily go to $5k a pair (in the id market) without reaching the point of diminishing returns... and depending on your needs, even more...
what i'm getting to is "spend as much as you can on your speakers"... even if you have to swallow really hard to do it...

Are you trying to make me broke?! mad.gifwink.gif

Well I probably won't jump on expensive speakers unless I get to audition them in person, I don't want to spend a ton of money, have them arrive at my door, play them, and not like them (or hardly hear a difference from my cheaper speakers). Also, I know that getting expensive speakers will make me feel obligated to get an expensive AVR with pre-outs and add an expensive external amp as well. Don't want to have a nice pair of speakers and not use them to their full potential. All of that would cost nearly $2000, which is a bit crazy for me to think about doing at all, so I should really refrain from wanting to do that. tongue.gif
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post #15861 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alokeprasad View Post

How to do a quick "tone" adjustment?
I have the 2312ci all set up with 7.1 speakers, Audyssey calibration, etc etc. But sometimes, a recording just asks for more (or less) bass/treble/midrange or whatever.
Is there a quick and easy way to adjust these (or maybe even finer control like the old "graphic equalizers" from amps of yesteryear's)?
If so, how would I easily restore the Audyssey settings after I was done listening to whatever that needed this temporary tone control adjustment?

There are a couple of ways ....

(1) To use the the "Tone Control" (p. 97 OM) settings (bass/treble) you must first disable Audyssey Dyn EQ, then set Tone Control to ON and make adjustments to either bass or treble as desired. To return, simply set Tone Control to OFF, and set Dyn EQ back to ON.
(2) To make manual EQ adjustments, set the MultEQ XT setting to "Manual" (p. 98 OM) and make any desired frequency adjustments (noting this disables Audyssey in the process). These adjustments are separate and distinct from the Audyssey EQ settings. To return, simply reset MultEQ XT back to "Audyssey."

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post #15862 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

wow, thats a no brainer, ill order the optical cable for sure. what mode do i put the avr on to broadcast the audio from the optical cable/tv? and the 2112 does have an optical cable port, correct?

Yes, every XX12 model has an optical input (including the 2112). The optical input defaults to "TV" so just as with the ARC feature, selecting the TV input on the remote will get the TV's audio to play through the AVR, although also ensure the TV is set to "external speakers", without having the HDMI-CEC (eg. VieraLink) feature on the TV enabled.

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post #15863 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sysfail View Post

Oh yeah I know, but I can get a refurbished Denon 2112ci for about $390 shipped. A refurbished 2113ci would be about $30 more and a "like new" open box 2113ci would be about $40 more. Is it worth the extra money to get the 2113ci rather than the 2112ci? (I'm looking at Acessories4less and Electronics-expo for the pricing)

This would be more of a personal preference as to whether it's worth it, as some features were removed on the 2113CI and others are gained. Refer to post #1 of the Denon AVR-XX13 Owner's thread linked in my sig. Also note that an open box unit would carry the full 3 year mfr's warranty just as a new unit would whereas the refurbs only carry a 1 year warranty.

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post #15864 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swizzchard View Post

Hoping to find a solution to my problem, but I have my doubts.
Setup:
TV: Samsung LN40C500 - not hdmi control or cec or arc. Only input connected is the HDMI from the AVR-3312
AVR: Denon AVR 3312
Blu-ray: Sony bdp-s570
DVR/Cable: Cisco CHS-435hdc
I have my monitor 1 out to the TV from the AVR-3312, the rest are HDMI straight to the DVR. I am using HDMI Control on the AVR to allow the standby source for HDMI-3, which is where the cable/dvr is connected. Everything to this regard operates great.
I also have HDMI Control set to 'ON' for the BDP-S570. What this allows me to do is, while watching the DVR/Cable, and TV on, I can turn on the blu-ray and it will automatically change the input source to the blu-ray player. Very nice. However, once I turn the blu-ray player off after finishing, it doesn't automatically switch back to the already-on cisco box.
Is there a way for the AVR to switch this back without turning the AVR on?

The HDMI-Control setting only works with that one component that the Standby Source is set to. A better bet would be to replace the stock Denon remote with a Harmony remote so you just have to select a one button "Activity" which will then make the necessary configuration changes to enable that particular activity.

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post #15865 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

There are a couple of ways ....
(1) To use the the "Tone Control" (p. 97 OM) settings (bass/treble) you must first disable Audyssey Dyn EQ, then set Tone Control to ON and make adjustments to either bass or treble as desired. To return, simply set Tone Control to OFF, and set Dyn EQ back to ON.
(2) To make manual EQ adjustments, set the MultEQ XT setting to "Manual" (p. 98 OM) and make any desired frequency adjustments (noting this disables Audyssey in the process). These adjustments are separate and distinct from the Audyssey EQ settings. To return, simply reset MultEQ XT back to "Audyssey."
Seems a bit complicated, involving a dive into the menus. Sometimes, I miss the knobs and sliders.
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post #15866 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 03:19 AM
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Correct, although most owners likely simply adjust to the "reference" Audyssey EQ settings. smile.gif

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post #15867 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 09:09 AM
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Can someone with a 2312 or a 3312 check something with AirPlay for me? I got a 2112 (not featured enough, but has AirPlay) and found what seems like a pretty consistent AirPlay bug with the latest firmware.


Could someone try the following at home and report? Select a source (say tuner), launch iTunes and start playing to he Denin through AirPlay (that should work if iTunes was not playing before). Then switch back to your source... Pause play in iTunes. Click Play... The Denon does not go back to playing AirPlay.. Switch the Denon to NET/USB. Still no play. Play will only happen if you deselect the Denon from iTunes then reselect it.

Thanks a lot!
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post #15868 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

This would be more of a personal preference as to whether it's worth it, as some features were removed on the 2113CI and others are gained. Refer to post #1 of the Denon AVR-XX13 Owner's thread linked in my sig. Also note that an open box unit would carry the full 3 year mfr's warranty just as a new unit would whereas the refurbs only carry a 1 year warranty.

That's a good point. I wouldn't mind paying an extra $40 for an extra 2 years of warranty. I just might end up going with that. Thanks!
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post #15869 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sysfail View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

you are welcome... smile.gif
well... i dunno on bang for the buck... hard to say... i'm not at all familiar with polks, so i don't know how the various models compare...
i will say one thing... i've never regretted spending money on speakers... just because you don't get "double the performance" doesn't mean they aren't "worth" double (or even 4 or 5 times) the price... imo, you can easily go to $5k a pair (in the id market) without reaching the point of diminishing returns... and depending on your needs, even more...
what i'm getting to is "spend as much as you can on your speakers"... even if you have to swallow really hard to do it...

Are you trying to make me broke?! mad.gifwink.gif

Well I probably won't jump on expensive speakers unless I get to audition them in person, I don't want to spend a ton of money, have them arrive at my door, play them, and not like them (or hardly hear a difference from my cheaper speakers). Also, I know that getting expensive speakers will make me feel obligated to get an expensive AVR with pre-outs and add an expensive external amp as well. Don't want to have a nice pair of speakers and not use them to their full potential. All of that would cost nearly $2000, which is a bit crazy for me to think about doing at all, so I should really refrain from wanting to do that. tongue.gif

of course i'm trying to make you broke... why shouldn't you join the rest of us? tongue.gifsmile.gif

"expensive speakers" doesn't mean you need "expensive external amp"... smile.gif i drive mine (not the most expensive in the world, but not inexpensive) from an avr... actually, they are being driven by a cheapo yamaha neohd toy right now while i'm wating for the 4520 to get here...

you might (read: will) want a more expensive avr, but not because of power... you'll want one for the more advanced dsp, specifically room correction...

keep in mind that "price" is not a technical spec... speakers don't care if the amplifier was cheap or expensive... they only care that they get fed enough power... and there are very few that will not be able to be driven by an adequate avr....

- chris

 

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #15870 of 19703 Old 10-30-2012, 08:57 PM
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denon 1712

audyssey set my sub at -2.5

i like more bass so i raised it via the receiver to +2.5

problem is every once in a while, i dont know maybe 2 weeks or so i notice a change in bass. i check the receiver and its back to -2.5

how do i fix this? i have no problem raising it back up every time but if i can fix this id like to know how

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