Cary Cinema 12 - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 413 Old 07-09-2015, 04:02 AM
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Do the 11a and the 12 sound similar when used for movies/bluray only through hdmi or does the 12 have that wow factor over the 11a?
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post #392 of 413 Old 07-09-2015, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by gsf2 View Post
Do the 11a and the 12 sound similar when used for movies/bluray only through hdmi or does the 12 have that wow factor over the 11a?
I have both, and am using the 12 in my setup with the 11a in reserve. My impression is that the 12 does sound better, but both do a great job of surround and bass management. The 12 seems to have fewer HDMI artifacts. The sources to the 12 are an Oppo 105 that also processes DirecTV HD-DVR and a Sony XA5400ES. The Oppo connects via HDMI, coax, and 7.1 analog; the Sony via HDMI and XLR. I rely on the Oppo for Blu-ray audio, and am particularly fond of opera on Blu-ray, but music encoded in DTS-HD MA or Dolby True HD can be splendid. The Sony is used for surround SACDs.

The Cary is not used for stereo. That's a Parasound JC 2 BP preamp with an Ayre C-5xeMP and JC 3 phono stage as sources. The front LR from the Cary is passed through the JC 2 to get to the JC 1 amps. For a long time, the 11a served as the processor/preamp in the setup, and sounded very good, but the JC 2 brought a new level of transparency. That said, the 11a and 12 are very good for both music and HT with quite a bit of flexibility, and they can process surround DSD via HDMI. I used the direct from Oppo to amp setup, but I prefer the sound and greater flexibility with the Cary in the loop. I recommend either the 11a or 12, but I prefer the 12.

PS: I buy almost exclusively pre-owned components at half MSRP or less.

db
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post #393 of 413 Old 07-11-2015, 04:16 AM
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dbphd;

Your reply is exactly what I wanted to hear/know. Thank you.

I have a wonderfully sounding Simaudio cd that would be used in analog pass through and movies through hdmi.
A simple set up that should have no issues.
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post #394 of 413 Old 10-21-2015, 03:03 AM
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How about this for news......................
Cinema 12 is done. No plans at the moment for a replacement.
I got the impression at RMAF that Cary has had it with HDMI and handshake relics.
Havent we all.....

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post #395 of 413 Old 12-13-2015, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I have both, and am using the 12 in my setup with the 11a in reserve. My impression is that the 12 does sound better, but both do a great job of surround and bass management. The 12 seems to have fewer HDMI artifacts.

db
Interesting. I was under the impression when looking at these that they cannot run the main speakers full range if there is a sub present in the system. Even my old Denon 3300 will allow this configuration. This is the limitation that has steered me away from the Cary C12.

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post #396 of 413 Old 12-13-2015, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
Interesting. I was under the impression when looking at these that they cannot run the main speakers full range if there is a sub present in the system. Even my old Denon 3300 will allow this configuration. This is the limitation that has steered me away from the Cary C12.
You can set all your speakers to "full" simply by selecting it straight from the C12's set up menu.

I myself am running the C12/C7.250 combo with Proacs I.e. D38s front, D-Monitor centre & D28s rear, all in full mode. I.e. The X-over settings for each of the speakers can be manually set from the C12 which includes " "Full" X-over setting.

I am also running 2 REL Strata 5 subs but prefer using its Neutrik Speakon high level interconnect.


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post #397 of 413 Old 12-13-2015, 07:01 AM
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IIRC, if you set the front speakers to large, signal is not distributed to the SW output, but you probably don't want both full range and sub anyway. I think you can have the speakers set to small with crossover to SW in the movie menu and speakers set to large with no SW in the music menu.

I'm now using a Bryston SP3 that does permit what they term XTRA BASS (full range plus SW), but warn it can result in bloated sound. I use the Bryston with HDMI input for surround, and a Parasound JC 2 BP with balanced analog input for stereo. I do not use XTRA BASS and the JC 2 has no sub output.

If you are interested in either the Cary C12 or 11a, PM me.

db
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post #398 of 413 Old 12-13-2015, 12:37 PM
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My NAD Master M15 needs a volume control issue fixed. I have been looking for a stand in. The Cary was at the top of my list. Cary reps told me at the show this year the C12 has two issues. One, HDMI handshake causes a pause at the beginning of each audio track. Many have become extremely annoyed by this. The second is the bass management limitation. My front mains are Stratus Golds. I prefer for them to run full range even though I am versed with the pros and cons of running that configuration.

The Cary was at the top of my list as I believe it is going to have the best performance on music / 2 channel. The NAD is extremely good in this regard and I do not want to step down.

There is no bass management limitation on the Mcintosh 121, NAD M17, or Marantz 8801. I dont care about handshake. I would only use HDMI on the BD player. As far as sound quality goes those options should also sound good. All of them have two sub outs too. If the Cary allowed full range front mains I would be all over it.

I was also told that they are so tired of dealing with format changes and HDMI that there is no replacement planned for the C12. Most unfortunate.

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post #399 of 413 Old 12-14-2015, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
HDMI handshake causes a pause at the beginning of each audio track. Many have become extremely annoyed by this. The second is the bass management limitation. My front mains are Stratus Golds. I prefer for them to run full range even though I am versed with the pros and cons of running that configuration.
(1) It seems as though Cary is now muting the handshake, as does my Bryston SP3, to avoid the click that can occur during that period. My Cary 12 does not, but you can sometimes get a click when selecting a track. (2) I used small and SW for the movie menu, full for the music menu. My KEF Reference 107/2s can do a convincing job of reproducing organ pedal notes without a sub, especially when given by the high current of the 800-watt Parasound JC 1 mono blocks.

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post #400 of 413 Old 12-15-2015, 12:09 AM
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(1) It seems as though Cary is now muting the handshake, as does my Bryston SP3, to avoid the click that can occur during that period. My Cary 12 does not, but you can sometimes get a click when selecting a track. (2) I used small and SW for the movie menu, full for the music menu. My KEF Reference 107/2s can do a convincing job of reproducing organ pedal notes without a sub, especially when given by the high current of the 800-watt Parasound JC 1 mono blocks.

db
I would only use HDMI with BD. It is a necessary evil that I will avoid every chance I get. Analog or SPDIF. No Handshake. No Headaches.

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post #401 of 413 Old 12-15-2015, 02:05 AM
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I would only use HDMI with BD. It is a necessary evil that I will avoid every chance I get. Analog or SPDIF. No Handshake. No Headaches.
I play surround SACDs using a Sony XA5400ES which requires HDMI; I play BDs using an Oppo 105D, also HDMI, but could be 7.1 analog. For stereo, I use balanced analog from an Ayre C-5xemp to a Parasound JC 2 BP preamp.

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post #402 of 413 Old 12-17-2015, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I play surround SACDs using a Sony XA5400ES which requires HDMI; I play BDs using an Oppo 105D, also HDMI, but could be 7.1 analog. For stereo, I use balanced analog from an Ayre C-5xemp to a Parasound JC 2 BP preamp.

db
I have nearly the same, except an Esoteric CD/SACD player. Had I this Cary, I would use HDMI for my movies on Blu-Ray and mist music on the analogue outputs. This would also be my choice for standard DVDs as well.

I do one thing a bit different; I used My music player to an ARC preamplifier and the surround ( the unit has two pair of surround outputs) RCA using to any stereo inputs and then use second front speakers, the same one I use for movies, to play the surround effects.

Nevertheless, the connection SACD multi-channel setup will work fine with the RCA inputs from the Esoteric. My other music player us SACD but stereo only.

With all the snap sounds not dealt with, I have grown sick of it all and am thinking of buying the previous model from Yamaha. I do not mind the lack of bells and whistles, as I will never use them; however, not being able to fix noises with these high-end pieces, I feel disappointed in the whole HDMI venture, I think they should have developed a better interface connection for those who wish to connect it once an leave it!

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post #403 of 413 Old 12-17-2015, 01:49 PM
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Cary Cinema 12

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Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
Interesting. I was under the impression when looking at these that they cannot run the main speakers full range if there is a sub present in the system. Even my old Denon 3300 will allow this configuration. This is the limitation that has steered me away from the Cary C12.

Tantamount to saying....

Even my old Sanyo 3-in-1 has tone controls. This is the limitation that has steered me away from the Audio Research Reference Preamplifier


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post #404 of 413 Old 12-19-2015, 02:05 AM
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Tantamount to saying....

Even my old Sanyo 3-in-1 has tone controls. This is the limitation that has steered me away from the Audio Research Reference Preamplifier


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Early processors in the 5.1 realm often suffered from this limitation. It was quickly perceived as an annoyance. Most of the manufacturers quickly implemented more flexible bass management options. It is a shame the modern day Cary suffers from this limitation. It would be preferred if it allowed the use of full range speakers + subwoofer.

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post #405 of 413 Old 12-19-2015, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
Early processors in the 5.1 realm often suffered from this limitation. It was quickly perceived as an annoyance. Most of the manufacturers quickly implemented more flexible bass management options. It is a shame the modern day Cary suffers from this limitation. It would be preferred if it allowed the use of full range speakers + subwoofer.
I think the reasoning, which seems valid to me, is that full range + subwoofer results in over emphasis of that part of the spectrum where there would be overlap. Crossovers are designed to blend that overlap. The Bryston SP3 permits using both, but warns against the potential overlap. I don't view this as a negative the Cary prepros suffer.
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post #406 of 413 Old 12-19-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tritiumglo View Post
Early processors in the 5.1 realm often suffered from this limitation. It was quickly perceived as an annoyance. Most of the manufacturers quickly implemented more flexible bass management options. It is a shame the modern day Cary suffers from this limitation. It would be preferred if it allowed the use of full range speakers + subwoofer.

Only annoying to ones that prefer unnatural, over-bloated bass.


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post #407 of 413 Old 12-19-2015, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I think the reasoning, which seems valid to me, is that full range + subwoofer results in over emphasis of that part of the spectrum where there would be overlap. Crossovers are designed to blend that overlap. The Bryston SP3 permits using both, but warns against the potential overlap. I don't view this as a negative the Cary prepros suffer.
This would not bother me so much either, being I use my better main speakers for Music only, and direct to an ARC pre-amplifier.

What does bother me is the 'hand shake' issue, such problems should be resolved!

I am assuming this has close to the quality of Krell? The Krell s-1200 is deferentially balanced, all class A drivers, unless Krell is not being honest?

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post #408 of 413 Old 12-19-2015, 08:30 PM
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The Cary was a great sounding product in both 5.1 and 2 channel.

They were just crushed by HDMI issues.

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post #409 of 413 Old 12-22-2015, 09:19 AM
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So, the Cary Cinema 12 is likely to have HDMI issues? Here is what i do not get, for my use, I plan to use one, only one, for life and I would expect a cable to work well if it is not plugged in and out often.

If there is going to be a problem wit this, I would be better off with a unit that had two sets of multi-channel analogue inputs. If my Krell HTS 7.1 had two sets of multi-channel analogue inputs I would not be looking to change at all.

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post #410 of 413 Old 12-22-2015, 10:47 AM
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So, the Cary Cinema 12 is likely to have HDMI issues?
I think too much is being made of the HDMI issues. Unless you jump from track to track, you may never experience a click with the C12. Depending on the quality of the digital-to-analog conversion of your source, you may well prefer to have the Cary do it, because it has very good analog processing.
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post #411 of 413 Old 12-22-2015, 11:11 AM
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I think too much is being made of the HDMI issues. Unless you jump from track to track, you may never experience a click with the C12. Depending on the quality of the digital-to-analog conversion of your source, you may well prefer to have the Cary do it, because it has very good analog processing.
One thing I do is skip the coming attractions on my Blu-rays, and this might cause the noise. What, if anything, would change if I skipped though these with the volume very low, or muted? Any difference?

Music goes to another preamplifier, except when I use surround, which has an unusual set-up, and uses only the audio stereo inputs in the unit I use now. If I had the Cary, I would use the 5.1 analogue for my player, which is both multi-channel music and DVD, but not Blu-Ray. The Oppo 105D would be the only HDMI player.

There is one for sale, it seems either I get it or a Yamaha, or just keep with my older Krell.

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post #412 of 413 Old 12-22-2015, 05:32 PM
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I don't recall hearing any HDMI artifacts when playing Blu-ray using my Oppo 105 with either the C11a or C12. I replaced my C12 with a Bryston SP3 that had twice the MSRP, and it may sound a bit better, but the Cary units sound very good. I still have a C11a and C12 I should sell, but then I have lots of audio components I no longer use and should sell. Send a PM if interested. I've been lazy about listing stuff.
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post #413 of 413 Old 12-22-2015, 09:02 PM
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The Cary was a great sounding product in both 5.1 and 2 channel.

They were just crushed by HDMI issues.

I have had the C12 for a few years now & I must agree with one other poster in that too much has been made of the HDMI issues, else I am the lucky one with a virtually flawless C12.

The only real issue I have atm is that after switching the C12 on, a few minutes pass where I might here a glitch coming through the speakers for maybe 2seconds. This only ever happens once on power up & only sometimes.

I do not whatsoever experience any of the other issues that have been talked about here.

Apart from that it has been pretty much flawless in every other respect except maybe it's auto room equalisation could be a lot better but I always prefer doing this manually anyway.

The biggest issue I had was not with the C12, but with the Cary 7.250 power amp. It had a noisy fan but it was sorted with a newer quieter fan from Steve at Cary.

I am in Oz & Steve of Cary was excellent and prompt in sorting out the fan noise issue.

Very happy Cary C12 & 7.250 owner here.


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