Cary Cinema 12 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 379 Old 06-14-2011, 12:40 PM
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Thank you to the OP with his extensive review and assessment, as I'm always interested in what Cary has under their sleeves especially this time around, it's a real shame they let the ball drop again!



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post #62 of 379 Old 06-18-2011, 06:10 PM
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Keeping in mind that i am still very new/green to all this home cinema stuff, i am wandering if the present problems with the cinema12 would be of any issue for my setup.

I want to use the Cary cinema12 solely for HT duties. For its ability to produce that great Cary sound. I have the Cary cinema5 and cinema2 power amps for my 7.2 setup. There will be -
No 2 channel music
No free to air TV
No satellite TV
No internet anything
No gaming consoles

I just want it for watching Blu Ray movies and the odd concert dvd.

Or is the advice still that i should hold off until the issues are resolved?
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post #63 of 379 Old 06-19-2011, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian13 View Post

I want to use the Cary cinema12 solely for HT duties. For its ability to produce that great Cary sound. I have the Cary cinema5 and cinema2 power amps for my 7.2 setup

For what it's worth, I would suggest that you don't need to wait.

As you have a 7.2 setup - and therefore including a centre - you can ignore the firmware upgrade which is going to address the 'phantom centre problem' as you don't need it.

And I'll repeat that the sound quality from the unit is fabulous. I have experienced *no* problems whatsoever when playing dvd or blu-ray discs (Oppo-83 as source) with the separation and solidity of imagery being everything I would want from the unit (and no video circuitry or EQ to get in the way). The DAC/DSPs used are very good and the HDMI passthru is also excellent.

There may be an argument to say you could spend alot less if all you want is Home Cinema, but if Sound Quality is a key requirement (I assume so as you use Cary's superb solid state amps) then you'd have to spend a whole lot more to better the 12.
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post #64 of 379 Old 06-19-2011, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian13 View Post

I just want it for watching Blu Ray movies and the odd concert dvd.

Or is the advice still that i should hold off until the issues are resolved?

I can only speak for the 11a but my issues of not locking onto source, drop outs and cutting off the beginning of a track have been limited to optical and rca/spdif. HDMI has worked flawless but I should add that I don't bother with the plxII, neo or ces7.1 ect.

Of course much of the cost of a Cary is for the fabulous analog section which there is never a problem
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post #65 of 379 Old 06-19-2011, 10:52 AM
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Mine just shipped. Maybe I should have waited until issues are resolved but the 0% APR credit card offer has a deadline. Only way I can swing it. I'll be using the analog multichannel inputs for my Sony SACD player. Everything else will be HDMI with 7 speakers. From Blem's posts, it looks like I won't see any major problems, but will report otherwise.
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post #66 of 379 Old 06-21-2011, 01:55 AM
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First I have to thank Blem for starting this thread as it allows me to compare my Cinema 12 problems with others. AT first I was a bit worry since I never own any Cary product before and is too late to cancel the order. Now that I have it with me for a few days to play around, most of my worries are gone. Most of my music sources are analog and I had the OPPO 95 to handle the digital audio and video and everything turn out just fine. I used XLR cables throughout and only the 5.1 connections to the Cinema 12 used RCA. I hook up the C12 without reading the manual first and it worked right out of the box. The gain(volume) is pretty loud too and I actually have to turn it down. I read the whole manual after that but I have to admit that I am no better in setting up the C12 than before. I don't really like the remote control and I rather Cary shipped it with a Logitech Harmony One. For start up and shut down I let the Power Conditioner does it in sequence so there are no pops and crackles sounds. What annoy me the most are problem number 3 and 4 in Blem's post. I think the problems are with the Cirrus Logic CS49700 series of chipsets and Cary alone cannot fix them, they will have to work with Cirrus to find a solution.
If you care about the sound department in AV gears, then Cinema 12 is the way to go. I have nothing to compare it with at hand except the Marantz AV7005 which I got as a demo. Yes, it is nice and cost only 1/3 of Cinema 12 but there is no comparison in analog sound. In video and digital sound they come pretty close. However the Marantz does have less problems. I could have picked the Classe SSP800 since I live in Canada and can get better local service should anything goes wrong but it cost a bit more and not sound any better. In closing my post I hope Cary will try a little harder to fix the problems as soon as possible, after all an unhappy customer wil not be a return customer.
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post #67 of 379 Old 06-21-2011, 05:43 AM
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YTW,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.

One thing I don't understand is if you are going to go analog input into the Cinema 12, wouldn't pretty much any prepro do as it's your source device that determines the sound quality?

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post #68 of 379 Old 06-21-2011, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
YTW,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.

One thing I don't understand is if you are going to go analog input into the Cinema 12, wouldn't pretty much any prepro do as it's your source device that determines the sound quality?
I asked that very question of a tech person at Classe. I wanted to get
a SSP600 and run analog through it. I did not see paying over $2500 for
a prepro that just handled volume level control. He told me the SQ is
as good as the weakest link in your system. So not just any prepro would be
as good as the next. Its what that prepro does with what it receives. In
my case the SSP600.
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post #69 of 379 Old 06-22-2011, 01:29 AM
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I have to thank Blem for starting this thread so that I can compare my Cinema 12 problems with others. I try to post for the last few days but my posts always gone missing when I press "Submit Reply". Don't really know what happened !
I have most of the problems that Blem had except that only problem number #3 and #4 really bother me the most. I can bypass those problems if I use the OPPO 95 to process all the digital sources and use the Cinema 12 as 5.1 pass through but that will defeat the purpose of buying the Cinema 12 as a good sounding AV pre/pro.
Now on the bright side, the analog audio on the C12 is excellent and right up there with the Classe SSP800. I could have purchased the Classe if the C12 does not sound just as good and cost a bit less since I can get better local service from Classe than Cary should anything goes wrong. I have nothing at hand to compare with at home except a Marantz AV7005 which I bought as a demo. Yes, it only cost about 1/3 of the C12 but the C12 is far better in the sound department. In closing my post I hope Cary Audio will work a little bit harder to fix the problems. It seems that all those problems are with the Cirrus Logic CS49700 series of chipsets and perhaps they can work together to find a solution. After all an unhappy customer will not be a return customer.
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post #70 of 379 Old 06-22-2011, 02:07 AM
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Hi JimP, Sorry for the repeat posts because I thought it was lost during submit. Somehow I cannot see my post if I did not login, is that normal occurrence in this forum ?
I have made detail comparisons between using Cinema 12 as 5.1 pass through and the Marantz AV7005. The Cinema 12 does sound better, I don't know why but perhaps Cary use better parts and designs. I use three floor full range speakers on the front channels and two at the back. I have subs too but I don't use them for music, it just don't sound natural, so as 7.1 settings.
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post #71 of 379 Old 06-22-2011, 05:31 AM
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YTW...thanks for posting.
For a member to be able to post, they do have to be logged in but I thought anybody could see a post whether they are logged in or not.
Its interesting that with analog passthrough that there is a difference. I would suspect one (probably the Marantz) isn't a true analog passthrough or as you said, they use better parts/design in the Cary.

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post #72 of 379 Old 06-22-2011, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Its interesting that with analog passthrough that there is a difference. I would suspect one (probably the Marantz) isn't a true analog passthrough or as you said, they use better parts/design in the Cary.

Possibly the latter.

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post #73 of 379 Old 06-23-2011, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

YTW...thanks for posting.
For a member to be able to post, they do have to be logged in but I thought anybody could see a post whether they are logged in or not.
Its interesting that with analog passthrough that there is a difference. I would suspect one (probably the Marantz) isn't a true analog passthrough or as you said, they use better parts/design in the Cary.

need to keep in mind the basis of a marantz av7005 is a denon 3311. a pretty basic bottom range avr. it does have a true analog pass through. every denon design has. but you need to go a lot further up the denon range for better analog performance. even one of the older denon 3808/4308 are better over analog in my opinion

as far as the cary processor its still silicone chip city vs any of the cary pure analog tube pre-amps. so if thats what you want theyre probably worth considering

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post #74 of 379 Old 06-23-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

need to keep in mind the basis of a marantz av7005 is a denon 3311. a pretty basic bottom range avr. it does have a true analog pass through. every denon design has. but you need to go a lot further up the denon range for better analog performance. even one of the older denon 3808/4308 are better over analog in my opinion

as far as the cary processor its still silicone chip city vs any of the cary pure analog tube pre-amps. so if thats what you want theyre probably worth considering

Thank You for your suggestion but I was looking for an AV pre/pro that can do 5.1 , I had thought about the Audio Research MP1 but it was 7 years old design and still cost over 7000 dollars here in Canada if I buy it new, besides as far as tube goes, it comes with a lot of maintenance, so Cinema 12 seems to be the logical choice and I haven't regret about that descision yet. Just hope that Cary will do something about the bugs.
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post #75 of 379 Old 06-24-2011, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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First the good new! (at last)

I received the 1.01 version code today and have tested it and the phantom centre problem is sorted - hurrah !

I tested using:
  • Dolby Digital 5.1 - The Last Samurai (both DVD and Blu-Ray)
  • Dolby Surround EX 6.1 - Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (DVD)
  • DTS 5.1 - The Fifth Element (DVD and Blu-Ray)
  • DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 - The Lord Of The Rings: Extended Editions (DVD)
  • Dolby TrueHD 5.1 - The Matrix Trilogy (Blu-Ray)
  • Dolby TrueHD 7.1 - Nightmare Before Xmas (Blu-Ray)
  • DTS HD Master Audio 5.1 - Bourne Trilogy (Blu-Ray)
  • DTS HD Master Audio 7.1 - Tron Legacy (Blu-Ray)

And they all perform flawlessly.

The bad news is that none of the other problems have been addressed, for example issue #2: matrixing 7.1.

What is *supposed* to happen is the application of either Dolby Pro Logic IIx (to Dolby encodings) or CES 7.1 (to everything else) produces a 7.1 channel result from (most commonly) a 2.0 or 5.1 source.

Only it still doesn't work

As far as I can tell the centre channel is completely missing still, and I'm not convinced the surround channels are at the right level either.

Nor are the various digital handshaking/locking onto signals problems resolved; but at least it's a step forward...

BTW, when it works, the 12 continues to sound amazing; I ended-up watching the last 20 minutes of 'LOTR: Fellowship of the Ring (Extended)' because the sound was so immersive and engaging. And that was on DVD...- can't wait for the Blu-Ray !

...'til next time - cheers !
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post #76 of 379 Old 06-24-2011, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YTW View Post

Thank You for your suggestion but I was looking for an AV pre/pro that can do 5.1 , I had thought about the Audio Research MP1 but it was 7 years old design and still cost over 7000 dollars here in Canada if I buy it new, besides as far as tube goes, it comes with a lot of maintenance, so Cinema 12 seems to be the logical choice and I haven't regret about that descision yet. Just hope that Cary will do something about the bugs.

The MP1 is not an AV prepro. It is a 5.1 analog preamp. Also, it has no tubes.

Take a look at the Parasound P7 for a modern analog 5.1 preamp with the added facility for bass management.

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post #77 of 379 Old 06-24-2011, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The MP1 is not an AV prepro. It is a 5.1 analog preamp. Also, it has no tubes.

Take a look at the Parasound P7 for a modern analog 5.1 preamp with the added facility for bass management.

Thanks for the information, I thought Audio Research products are usually tube base. If I haven't got the Marantz already, the P7 should be a good choice. I sure hope that it won't sound better than the Cinema 12 !
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post #78 of 379 Old 06-25-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post


Take a look at the Parasound P7 for a modern analog 5.1 preamp with the added facility for bass management.

That's a 7.1 analog preamp.....that you reviewed.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/ViewLarg...P7_2-Large.jpg

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post #79 of 379 Old 07-02-2011, 10:30 PM
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I have the Cinema 12 breaking in for over 100 hours by now but could not noticed any obvious change in sound quality. It sounds the same to me as it was new. Perhaps it don't need any breakin period at all. I have replaced the cheap looking power cable that came with the unit with another cable that I bought from Cary Audio online store. For those who lives outside US, the cost of the cable would almost be double as UPS charged a very high brokeage free plus the shipping cost, it would be cheaper to buy local. The Cinema 12 is assembled in Hong Kong, the cable that came with it is made in China and the cable that you could buy in Cary online store is made in Taiwan. I have also try 3D movies through the only HDMI output and it seems working fine. Besides the problems that Blem mentioned, everthing else looks ok so far
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post #80 of 379 Old 07-03-2011, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

That's a 7.1 analog preamp.....that you reviewed.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/ViewLarg...P7_2-Large.jpg

Yup. However, I think in terms of 5.1 because that is all I have.

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post #81 of 379 Old 07-04-2011, 02:58 AM
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I am still very interested in the Cinema12 but have a question regarding the use of extra channels.

I have an interest in the Audyssey DSX setup, using either front wides or front heights. I wish to use the front wides as well as the conventional 7.2 setup bringing it to a 9.2 setup.

I know that the Cinema12 does not do Audyssey DSX and is only a 7.1 setup.
So my question is if i purchase the Cinema 12 how do i go about adding the extra channels and utilising the Audyssey DSX.

Please remember that i am new to all this and it is my first home theatre. I'm a little confused about this but do i need a pre amp with Audyssey DSX to enable this type of setup or can it still be achieved somehow with the Cinema12.
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post #82 of 379 Old 07-04-2011, 01:25 PM
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I have a Cinema 12 coming to me to demo, it just left the factory a few days ago. We'll see which firmware version it has on it (I would assume 1.01, the latest that Blem mentions).

Blem, where did you download the new firmware from? I do not see a firmware update for the 12 yet on Cary's site....

I am glad to hear that the phantom center issue has been fixed, as I primarily listen in 2 CH, but when I listen in full surround, I have to have a phantom center...

I hate center channels in the home! Unless you have a perforated screen, to put an identical speaker (good luck with finding a high end speaker maker that sells 1 speaker at a time) behind the screen!
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post #83 of 379 Old 07-04-2011, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian13 View Post

Please remember that i am new to all this and it is my first home theatre. I'm a little confused about this but do i need a pre amp with Audyssey DSX to enable this type of setup or can it still be achieved somehow with the Cinema12.

You "need a pre amp with Audyssey DSX to enable this type of setup."

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post #84 of 379 Old 07-04-2011, 09:57 PM
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Blem, could you take a picture of the small remote that coes with the Cinema 12? Thanks...

Looks like that little remote is only for Zone 2.... or can it be used as the main remote?

I am not looking forward to using a plastic remote.... I have been using a heavy/chunky metal remote for my Classe all theses years, and a metal remote for my $99 Apple TV....

Maybe one of the old basic Cary remotes will work with this new Cinema 12?
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post #85 of 379 Old 07-06-2011, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capwkidd View Post

Blem, where did you download the new firmware from? I do not see a firmware update for the 12 yet on Cary's site...

I have a beta copy of the code as it hasn't been officially released yet.

I'll try to find out if there's a release date for you.
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post #86 of 379 Old 07-06-2011, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capwkidd View Post

Blem, could you take a picture of the small remote that comes with the Cinema 12? Thanks...

Looks like that little remote is only for Zone 2.... or can it be used as the main remote?

I am not looking forward to using a plastic remote.... I have been using a heavy/chunky metal remote for my Classe all theses years, and a metal remote for my $99 Apple TV....

Maybe one of the old basic Cary remotes will work with this new Cinema 12?

Here ya go: Attachment 216895

I know what you mean about metal remotes... my old Bryston one was the same.

BTW, as far as I can tell, the second Cary remote is Zone 2 only.

I too would like to know if, for example, a Cinema 11 remote would work as it'd be alot easier to use than the programmable one supplied with the 12.
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post #87 of 379 Old 07-06-2011, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blem View Post

BTW, as far as I can tell, the second Cary remote is Zone 2 only.

I too would like to know if, for example, a Cinema 11 remote would work as it'd be alot easier to use than the programmable one supplied with the 12.

Chances are pretty good I think Blem ;the zone 2 remote is identical[note the 2 only hdmi buttons] and the menu's and dsp modes are replicasThe extra hdmi switching may mitigate things though;maybe compare the codes with the old one?

http://www.caryaudio.com/products/ac...salremote.html
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post #88 of 379 Old 07-08-2011, 11:17 PM
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Quick question:

Does the display the Cinema 12 is attached to via HDMI have to be on in order to playback MC music (SACD or DVD-A) from the source though the HDMI connection to the 12?

Also, can you turn off HDMI CEC in the 12 or the ARC function of HDMI 1.4

There is an issue with this in the 1.4 upgrade on the Cinema 11A

Thanks
Mark
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post #89 of 379 Old 07-15-2011, 11:33 PM
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How can I tell what firmware is on the Cinema 12?
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post #90 of 379 Old 07-16-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capwkidd View Post

How can I tell what firmware is on the Cinema 12?

Press 8521 on the remote, should be the same as the 11A
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