How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1596 Old 09-14-2011, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

Hi Jeff,

I am pretty sure that all of the parts perform at spec right after installation and being used.

You have to understand, that the parts used, particularly for hi end equipment were not necessarily designed or intended for this usage. The different parts have different characteristics (audible) even though parts of similar design and equal value are used and substituted either by the designer, DIY, modder, etc. Given time the sound of the unit becomes more open, with better resolution, better imaging, overall sound, etc.

And to the naysayer that feels that modding of equipment by Dave Schulte, or any other company does not have any affect on the sound, consider that many manufacturers, including companies like Audio Research may come out with a Mark II as an example with replacement parts, etc. installed in the circuitry. The 2 versions of the same machine will often sound different. Also, during the course of the run of many audio products, the machine may well go through revision and changes, and as mentioned as an example a Mark II version may come at the end of such revisions during a run of a piece of equipment.

Rich

I understand how reproducing the extreme subtleties in recorded sound .. music mostly ... enables it to approach or even equal live. As I have upgraded my source and control equipment (been a while since I changed speakers or amplification) I have successively noticed one "curtain" after another being raised from between me and the music.

What I haven't yet grasped or, to be honest .. rejected, is how burnin allows the circuitry to pass (?) more and more of the finest detail.

I am looking forward to hearing a properly conducted A/B as that is what is missing from this "debate" among subjectivists and objectivists.

Jeff
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post #362 of 1596 Old 09-14-2011, 07:25 PM
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I am not too sure about burn in on electronic equipment but I know my Halcro SSP did change sonic character after about 50 hours. When I first installed it music was a tad bright and lean, similar to a pre-amp I still had on hand which was disappointing. After watching a bunch of movies which the Halcro was great at I went back to music and found the sound to be much better. The sound was fuller and not bright at all but I wondered if it was just that I had gotten used to it after so many hours. I went back to my old pre-amp and the thin, bright sound was back so the Halcro did change sonic character after about 50 hours or so.

I can't recall which was the other pre-amp but I suspect it was the Integra 9.8 or possibly an older Lexicon pre-pro. After the Halcro changed sonically it became my 3rd favorite pre-pro for music behind the Proceed AVP2 and Meridian G68.

I do think 500 hours of burn in or even more than 50 hours is ridiculous, still not entirely convinced that anything more than a few hours is sufficient. I can see that once circuits warm up they may perform at there peak but that should only be a couple of hours. I do believe in speaker's breaking in as at least there mechanical devices so it's reasonable to think the surrounds and other moving parts would loosen up a bit.

That's just my experience and the only one I can recall after owning at least 20+ pre-amps over the years.

Can't wait until the comparison, should be interesting.

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post #363 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 12:05 AM
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Did the review ever happen?
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post #364 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 12:56 AM
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Thought this thread was dead as a dodo

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #365 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 08:06 AM
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Well the grass sure hasn't been cut in a while. Really hoping they're just on vacation.
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post #366 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 03:03 PM
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Maybe they are still waiting for the "burn-in" period, that they all seem to say it requires, to show even a teeny weeny hint of any real improvement at all over a stock unit....
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post #367 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 06:35 PM
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Why does burn in ALWAYS improve audio gear (with old analog synthesizers, they would drift out of tune, sounding worse in some cases - not sure why people seem to imply burn in is always an improvement?) So the electronic components, that were chosen for their exact specs, were either...

a) WERE in spec, and for some reason the audio engineers KNEW they would drift out of spec and by how much, and planned for that? And what changes are occurring and why don't electronic books mention this? (Of course they explain that heat causes certain change, and they build circuits to MINIMIZE those changes)

b) For some reason they were NOT in spec from the factory, and for some reason burn in magically fixes the components so they ARE in spec?

I just can't figure out how this burn in thing would work, logically.

Can anyone cite actual experiments demonstrating how and why solid state electronics sound better after "burn in" ?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #368 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Why does burn in ALWAYS improve audio gear? So the electronic components, that were chosen for their exact specs, were either...

a) WERE in spec, and for some reason the audio engineers KNEW they would drift out of spec and by how much, and planned for that? And what changes are occurring and why don't electronic books mention this? (Of course they explain that heat causes certain change, and they build circuits to MINIMIZE those changes)

b) For some reason they were NOT in spec from the factory, and for some reason burn in magically fixes the components so they ARE in spec?

I just can't figure out how this burn in thing would work, logically.

Can anyone cite actual experiments demonstrating how and why solid state electronics sound better after "burn in" ?

I don't think so.
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post #369 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post

Did the review ever happen?

It did not.

The mod guy sent his 885 back to TUC for the latest improvements (... I have no idea .. ) and it was damaged in transit on the return trip. It was sent back for repair and the owner decided to buy the modded 5508.

Around then, my 5508 developed the front panel/IDE connector bug and went back to be repaired. I have it back now working perfectly, and I'm sure the modded 5508 is working fine as well.

I don't think a testing protocol was ever agreed upon. The A/B/X switch we were going to be loaned by a professional reviewer was suspected by the mod guy as causing an obscuration of the detail that the modded 5508 (the 885 at the time) has. Pointing out that it is a passive device and would, at worst, obscure both units under test equally made no difference to him.

I will quote the sig of AVS member markus767 who quotes Floyd Toole - "In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence."

And my observation is that this stuff is nearly all "religion."

I'm stopping on this subject ...

Jeff
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post #370 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Why does burn in ALWAYS improve audio gear (with old analog synthesizers, they would drift out of tune, sounding worse in some cases - not sure why people seem to imply burn in is always an improvement?) So the electronic components, that were chosen for their exact specs, were either...

a) WERE in spec, and for some reason the audio engineers KNEW they would drift out of spec and by how much, and planned for that? And what changes are occurring and why don't electronic books mention this? (Of course they explain that heat causes certain change, and they build circuits to MINIMIZE those changes)

b) For some reason they were NOT in spec from the factory, and for some reason burn in magically fixes the components so they ARE in spec?

I just can't figure out how this burn in thing would work, logically.

Can anyone cite actual experiments demonstrating how and why solid state electronics sound better after "burn in" ?

You forgot .........

c) How does the "burn-in" process know precisely exactly when to stop burning-in, and not go too far as to make something sound or perform worse.

d) Why do the burn-in fanatics, always seem to claim that the burning-in process always only makes something sound better, and never makes it sound worse.
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post #371 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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post #372 of 1596 Old 11-13-2011, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

You forgot .........

d) Why do the burn-in fanatics, always seem to claim that the burning-in process always only makes something sound better, and never makes it sound worse.

I did say (d). It was not that clear in my original text, my edit may have improved the clarity.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #373 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 08:34 AM
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This is so disappointing. Can you guys not agree to doing the test without the switcher? Although I agree with the short term audio memory, I also think if you listen to one relatively short sequence of a movie scene, you can engrain the nuances and sounds into your brain for long enough. Just don't complicate it with a test with three, 5 minute scenes and 3 musical sequences. Keep it simple.

For example, I have 2 specific scene in transformers movies that have a good variety of detail and differences from quiet sounds to loud bursts with rocks crumbling all around. I use this sequence whenever I try new gear. I am so familiar with it, that when i hear something new in my system, I believe I am able to detect differences. Whether I like the change or not. In the past I have noticed new sounds I haven't heard before. Extra pieces of rocks breaking off and crumbling. A wind passing by. The location of the effects have also improved. And when a component has broken down, like my main amp and I've replaced it with my back-up amp, I notice the loss in some of those sounds. And more so in this case, the sounds are overall more similar ad brighter.

Point is, I think some of us have enough sound memory to last long enough to switch the cables and restart as long as it's kept simple. (I say some of us, because I think like vision and other forms of memory, people vary in their abilities. Some may have damaged their ears and can't hear certain sounds, or may simply not have the capacity to remember sounds as well as another).

Although I don't believe there will be a night and day difference, (as that's for comparing HT's in a box to a 10 grand+ system) I do think there should be enough detectable subtleties that would satisfy those of us audiophiles searching for improvement in that 95-100% range.

If a person can't spot subtleties in a short scene he is vehemently familiar with that he has listened to over and over again in the same room under the same conditions, (no furniture moved, no new people standing there, same listening position, same components), then either the component or cable, whatever, either has no difference or that person shouldn't be spending money on differences as they have the inability to detect them. Btw, I would suggest you both should listen to the same scene on the non modded unit sitting in the same positions in the one room together a number of times first. Maybe 5 times. Perhaps discuss some of the sounds and things you hear. Then try the modded unit. Try the modded unit maybe 2 more times. Then go back to the non modded unit. That's how I test new gear and decide whether to keep it.

Perhaps to appease yourself Pepar, also do the test with the switcher. Do it both ways. See what happens. Understanding the basic logic of modding the component to use parts than reduce noise interference to achieve better sound, I can agree with the concept of not adding in the switcher if Nature he has tried it and feels it's addition affects the sound. Although it seems logical that it would affect the sound of both units, it may not be so noticeable to the non modded unit, but in that high percentage os noise reduction region that seems hardest to achieve, maybe it would be more noticeable. I don't know. Haven't tried it on these units so I can't say. But I could agree with the possibility. So I suggest doing it both ways.

But in the end, these changes are compared to the best of the best processors. So I think, under above said conditions, you guys should at least be able to detect some form of improvement in subtleties and nuances. Willing? Able?
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post #374 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 08:53 AM
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Obviously this is not true, as many DBTs have shown.

The human brain can't objectively "save" a sound image for comparisons later on without making cross errors. This is because it isn't a scientific instrument but its been "manipulated" / controlled by a lot of subjective psychoacoustic elements (and moods) which will even let the (literally) same sound image appear differently at different times. This is due to the fact, that it interprets, correlates and values what it receives in terms of acoustical information. And this is context dependent.
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post #375 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post

This is so disappointing. Can you guys not agree to doing the test without the switcher? Although I agree with the short term audio memory, I also think if you listen to one relatively short sequence of a movie scene, you can engrain the nuances and sounds into your brain for long enough. Just don't complicate it with a test with three, 5 minute scenes and 3 musical sequences. Keep it simple.

For example, I have 2 specific scene in transformers movies that have a good variety of detail and differences from quiet sounds to loud bursts with rocks crumbling all around. I use this sequence whenever I try new gear. I am so familiar with it, that when i hear something new in my system, I believe I am able to detect differences. Whether I like the change or not. In the past I have noticed new sounds I haven't heard before. Extra pieces of rocks breaking off and crumbling. A wind passing by. The location of the effects have also improved. And when a component has broken down, like my main amp and I've replaced it with my back-up amp, I notice the loss in some of those sounds. And more so in this case, the sounds are overall more similar ad brighter.

Point is, I think some of us have enough sound memory to last long enough to switch the cables and restart as long as it's kept simple. (I say some of us, because I think like vision and other forms of memory, people vary in their abilities. Some may have damaged their ears and can't hear certain sounds, or may simply not have the capacity to remember sounds as well as another).

Although I don't believe there will be a night and day difference, (as that's for comparing HT's in a box to a 10 grand+ system) I do think there should be enough detectable subtleties that would satisfy those of us audiophiles searching for improvement in that 95-100% range.

If a person can't spot subtleties in a short scene he is vehemently familiar with that he has listened to over and over again in the same room under the same conditions, (no furniture moved, no new people standing there, same listening position, same components), then either the component or cable, whatever, either has no difference or that person shouldn't be spending money on differences as they have the inability to detect them. Btw, I would suggest you both should listen to the same scene on the non modded unit sitting in the same positions in the one room together a number of times first. Maybe 5 times. Perhaps discuss some of the sounds and things you hear. Then try the modded unit. Try the modded unit maybe 2 more times. Then go back to the non modded unit. That's how I test new gear and decide whether to keep it.

Perhaps to appease yourself Pepar, also do the test with the switcher. Do it both ways. See what happens. Understanding the basic logic of modding the component to use parts than reduce noise interference to achieve better sound, I can agree with the concept of not adding in the switcher if Nature he has tried it and feels it's addition affects the sound. Although it seems logical that it would affect the sound of both units, it may not be so noticeable to the non modded unit, but in that high percentage os noise reduction region that seems hardest to achieve, maybe it would be more noticeable. I don't know. Haven't tried it on these units so I can't say. But I could agree with the possibility. So I suggest doing it both ways.

But in the end, these changes are compared to the best of the best processors. So I think, under above said conditions, you guys should at least be able to detect some form of improvement in subtleties and nuances. Willing? Able?

Think about it ... what would the owner of an expensive mod have to gain by participating in a fair comparison? He knows his unit sounds much better than a stock one. Nevermind that he never A/B'd them, he just .. knows. What's the best he could expect? That everybody immediately agreed? Well sure, and you would think that that hubris would carry the day and mod owners, left and right, would be submitting to tests. For that matter, the mod MAKERS would be beating the doors down of reviewers across the land. But that's not happening.

What's the worst? Well, of course, that even they would not hear a difference or not much of one. Now they're feeling a bit foolish and conned. Why would they possibly take a chance to feel like that? Better to throw up objection after nonsensical objection ... the switch, not familiar with the content, not familiar with the test system. The idea that the switch would affect the test was planted in his head by David Schulte. And I do mean "planted." Of course, the soil was fertile to begin with. I am thinking "cult" here, folks.

They have one lone "review" on their website. Beyond that is this self-serving tripe: "Hi-Fi salesmen, some magazine reviewers, salesman, and some manufacturers will at times try to diminish the incredible value The Upgrade Company has provided to audiophiles the world over for decades. They want you to keep buying new equipment, they have no interest in your becoming totally satisfied with what you already own. Reviewers and salesman want you to buy whatever they're selling so they can make a buck instead of making you truly satisfied, because once you like what you have, you'll get off the merry-go-round of buying and selling high end audio."

Jeff
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post #376 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Obviously this is not true, as many DBTs have shown.

The human brain can't objectively "save" a sound image for comparisons later on without making cross errors. This is because it isn't a scientific instrument but its been "manipulated" / controlled by a lot of subjective psychoacoustic elements (and moods) which will even let the (literally) same sound image appear differently at different times. This is due to the fact, that it interprets, correlates and values what it receives in terms of acoustical information. And this is context dependent.


Obviously this is a sound comparison done within the time it takes to switch cables and restart a processor.

1 minute perhaps. Immediately after listening repeatedly to the same scene. With one goal in mind. Not too much time for a mood change or change of viewpoint wouldn't you say? Unless maybe one of their wives called and nagged them in that minute. Or an earthquake hit. Or perhaps a real bad fart in the enclosed space. Otherwise I think its safe to say there's not much time for interference to call for a change of mood.

I thought it wasn't worth mentioning before, but I'll add to the requirements not to take a break in between switching to watch any republican debates, go out to parties, reminisce over youth or lost loved ones or call your spouses.
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post #377 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Obviously this is not true, as many DBTs have shown.

The human brain can't objectively "save" a sound image for comparisons later on without making cross errors. This is because it isn't a scientific instrument but its been "manipulated" / controlled by a lot of subjective psychoacoustic elements (and moods) which will even let the (literally) same sound image appear differently at different times. This is due to the fact, that it interprets, correlates and values what it receives in terms of acoustical information. And this is context dependent.

I will cite my own recent experience. Earlier this year I upgraded from an 885 to a 5508. I had owned the 885 for about three years. It took a whole thirty seconds for me to hear the improvement in sound quality. Transparency, detail and dynamics - all quite noticeably improved. And that was a not-yet-Audyssey'd 5508 versus a Pro-calibrated 885.

TUC's website it not bashful about how much of an improvement there is over stock units. I do not think we would have needed a DBT to put the lie to this marketing bs - "Right out of the box, your new Upgrade Company "Signature Edition" upgrade competes or beats showroom models costing as much as 10 times or more."
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post #378 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post

Obviously this is a sound comparison done within the time it takes to switch cables and restart a processor.

1 minute perhaps.

First, swapping 6 output cables as well as the source cables will probably take more than a minute, Second, the flurry of activity and noise in doing so will complicate the comparison effort, especially if it is performed so that the listeners cannot see what is being done. Third, a minute is a long time interval for a subtle (at most) comparison under strange conditions (for all but the resident).

FWIW, the passive switch has been completely transparent in my experience.

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post #379 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

First, swapping 6 output cables as well as the source cables will probably take more than a minute, Second, the flurry of activity and noise in doing so will complicate the comparison effort, especially if it is performed so that the listeners cannot see what is being done. Third, a minute is a long time interval for a subtle (at most) comparison under strange conditions (for all but the resident).

Yep, and that's why I was willing to be less rigorous; TUC's claims are such that the claimed improvement is not close to subtle.

Quote:


FWIW, the passive switch has been completely transparent in my experience.

Of course, so we are left to speculate as to whether Schulte did not want a fair comparison, or simply no comparison at all.

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post #380 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I will cite my own recent experience. Earlier this year I upgraded from an 885 to a 5508. I had owned the 885 for about three years. It took a whole thirty seconds for me to hear the improvement in sound quality. Transparency, detail and dynamics - all quite noticeably improved. And that was a not-yet-Audyssey'd 5508 versus a Pro-calibrated 885.

TUC's website it not bashful about how much of an improvement there is over stock units. I do not think we would have needed a DBT to put the lie to this marketing bs - "Right out of the box, your new Upgrade Company "Signature Edition" upgrade competes or beats showroom models costing as much as 10 times or more."

Pepar, I wish we lived close. I'd buy one from DS to do this test. Then send it back to DS since I can't afford one right now either way.

There's nothing like doing it yourself to put it to rest. For yourself. Doesn't mean someone else won't have a different experience. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if many of these folks that use data only and not experience to argue and name call, simply don't have the hearing or mental ability to discern much difference in sounds. Possibly. I'm not discounting well conducted tests. And the more individuals the better, as there is still room for error. When I hear about cable tests conducted on folks walking into a new room, listening to a bevy of different scenes and music on a completely unfamiliar system, then waiting to listen to the same barrage of samples. Once. And not given the opportunity to A/B a second time because of time constraint. No surprise at all that it's no better than a 50/50 result. Too much new information at once. We're not talking about a true night and day difference. They are subtle differences important to those with a discerning ear. Yet I read so many commenting with their usual biting sarcasm on this test as if it's proven science. Please.

Again, to be neutral, it is possible an individual happy with their purchase from DS, doesn't want to be ridiculed as fools being taken by a charlatan from the very types of folks I discuss here and therefore not want to weigh in or offer up their testimonials. And maybe probable, since DS is still in business, I have to assume their are content purchasers out there. Whether justified through their own testing or simply happy with their placebo.

And it's almost a certainty that manufacturers and magazine reviewers have their own interests in mind. I spent 18 years as a creative in advertising. I'm quite familiar with the game. The skew. Spinning BS as far as lawyers will let you and then some. The R&D performed on the "target" physche and then playing on those fears or desires and hiding the regulated truth as best as you can legally. If you ever buy a garage heater thinking it will heat your garage, think twice. Just because it appears to say it will on the box or website and has some kind of professional tested looking stamp on it, doesn't mean it will work in your garage. Those things are tested in places like Florida in insulated garages on a 60 degree winter day. Not your uninsulated 30 degree garage. And they don't mention your heating bill is going to double or triple or that you'll have to have an electrician install a 220 watt electrical outlet for it to work. MAybe in the legal in the instructions because that's all they are mandated to do, but not in big bold copy on the front like the fake "WINTER TESTED" Logo. I have had to design a professional looking "tested" or "guaranteed" logo or two in my past. I worked for an agency early on that created a magazine division to create a medium for their biggest client to advertise in. You'd never find a bad review in there on them. And of course, the best reviews were advertisers reviews. And we were nice people at this small agency. It this way, it's a sad place we call home really. It's a plutocracy we live in, not a democracy. Democracy is just another one of Platos lies to the people. Yet the irony is although I believe that, i still enjoy reading my monthly subscriptions and watching the news. Hypocritical human nature. And I'm aware of it. But I will never be closed minded enough to believe in anything 100%. Because it is currently "proven" or unproven by man. Or man's science. People would have been beaten or hung at one time for proclaiming the world wasn't flat. Have you noticed recently pharmaceutical drug commercials don't use that fast talking voiceover to spew out the mountain of potential negative harm the drug can do to you? That's because it stopped working. Although it was designed to be read so fast and monotone people wouldn't take much notice, peoples minds adapted and they found through focus groups that although folks didn't know specifically what harm the drug did, they still associated that long list of rambling with negative affects. So they've all now eliminated the voiceover and use the "trusted" actor doing the main testimonial, to calmly and mesmerizingly tell you that your sperm could rot or you could get cancer and die. While they display light, calm, happy life images, or some mesmerizing stick figure walking over superimposed happy people. Just where they want us. Mindlessly, mesmerized and spending our money on there wares. I've seen good people do bad things for business and money.

Anyway, sorry for that. Just trying to get people to keep an open mind. And avoid the name calling. Maybe we would have enjoyed reading about the results right now, if so. Sophisticated humor and verbal gymnastics is still fun reading though, I admit. But wait until the test is done at least. I'd hoped that by not bombarding Nature in sarcasm but emparting pride in his willingness, we could have accomplished this test with two individuals not in it for the money. To be honest, I do see a positive outcome if Nature does the test. If he doesn't end up actually hearing a difference. He would take a little egg on his face but put be able to put his hard earned money towards other things in the future. And if you found a difference that could be great in many ways. Sadly though, I think there may be as many or more people out there who are glad this test wasn't completed in case they actually found there was a difference. They would never be able to admit to themselves that it's possible they were wrong or fooled by what they read either. Not all of them. But I'm sure there are many.

KR, I don't discount what you say about the time delay possibility. But I do discount it's inevitability.
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post #381 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 12:29 PM
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Are people still "waiting up nights" for TUC to provide test results based on accepted scientific method?

Really?

It's never going to happen, as it would expose them to all manner of legal claims once the ridiculous hyperbole on the web site is, to quote the title of this thread, debunked.
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post #382 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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To quote a famous A/V reviewer, they provide faith-based upgrades.
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post #383 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 12:47 PM
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To quote a famous A/V reviewer, they provide faith-based upgrades.

LOL

Well if that's the case, I should open a business and undercut TUC's prices. I can spray on blue goop and wrap tin foil with the best - and I'll use only Teflon coated foil, which will make my products better than any off the shelf product costing 20x as much as the original unit.
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post #384 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Sophisticated humor and verbal gymnastics is still fun reading though, I admit. But wait until the test is done at least. I'd hoped that by not bombarding Nature in sarcasm but emparting pride in his willingness, we could have accomplished this test with two individuals not in it for the money.

Wow, you're on a roll. Copy writer, right?

On a personal level, I feel a bit bad about this. But how do you discuss a scientific issue with someone who has no science or worse, pseudo-science? After we went round and round, patience wore thin as did respect. We ran out of reason and tact. OK, I ran out of tact. Others did as well, but they've had the good sense of not posting about it.

Jeff
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post #385 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 02:20 PM
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Wow, you're on a roll. Copy writer, right?

On a personal level, I feel a bit bad about this. But how do you discuss a scientific issue with someone who has no science or worse, pseudo-science? After we went round and round, patience wore thin as did respect. We ran out of reason and tact. OK, I ran out of tact. Others did as well, but they've had the good sense of not posting about it.

Jeff

So let's just say that we recognize bull$hit when we see it and put this issue to bed.

Cheers,
SB
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post #386 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't we owe it to our fellow enthusiasts to puncture the myth?
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post #387 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 03:08 PM
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Don't we owe it to our fellow enthusiasts to puncture the myth?

Jeff, that's a good point but is it really worth the time and effort? In any case I won't argue about it

Cheers,
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post #388 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 03:30 PM
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Don't we owe it to our fellow enthusiasts to puncture the myth?

Theoretically, at least up to a point.

But everybody may not perceive the puncture. Thus:

"It's only flesh wound!"

At some point we ride on . . . because there's something good waiting at Camelot.
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post #389 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 03:56 PM
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soo just cause the guys didn't do a test yet then it's all BS ??

Mike

JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #390 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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soo just cause the guys didn't do a test yet then it's all BS ??

Would you be willing to participate in an blind A/B/X test against the same model you have without the mods?

Jeff
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