How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 06:43 PM
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I don't know anyone who is able to do that in my area here in the SF Bay Area ,Sure I'd be willing, if anyone wants to come by .More than welcome !
my 5008 is great since the Mod & if it was not Great, then David would be buying it back from me . I bought mine on-line (Amazon)& then had the mod done . David said if I didn't feel it was better after he worked on it then he'd buy it from me.

Mike

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post #392 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Wow, you're on a roll. Copy writer, right?

On a personal level, I feel a bit bad about this. But how do you discuss a scientific issue with someone who has no science or worse, pseudo-science? After we went round and round, patience wore thin as did respect. We ran out of reason and tact. OK, I ran out of tact. Others did as well, but they've had the good sense of not posting about it.

Jeff

No, ad copywriters are schooled in the art of terseness. Clearly I am not. I also thought my occasional poor grammar was a giveaway. My job was making you want to buy it just from looking at it. Amongst other mind bending visual tricks. More recently, I led and motivated those guys and was responsible to concoct the strategic approach and find all new creative ways to mind-funk you. I believe it was an early ad guy in the early to mid 20th century who pioneered the approach of researching the psyche and creating spin terms and buzz words to fool the people that was quickly adopted by our political system. I'd say they are now the masters. I'm so proud of my heritage..

I don't believe this was ever a scientific experiment. Not sure why Nature would need to be scientific. It was a couple of guys with at most, personal vested interest in blind testing with less than perfect perimeters and offering their opinions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slighting you for that. I loved it. Couldn't wait. Don't see any reviewers or manufacturers jumping at the chance to test them. And hey, when I read "notable" magazine reviewers write-ups, they often just replace their own reference gear and write fancifully about their opinions in relation to what they recall their reference gear sounds like. Listening to a bevy of things. So to me, this would have been a better test. And more trustworthy than a magazine with advertisers. But, I'm not sure it was pure science. Don't think we've really invented a way to truly say scientifically whether one component sounds better than another. We're just not that far along.

So although many have you had already made up their mind before the test, (and would have never changed it anyway citing wavering variables) and are content now it's not happening, I am sadly not. It didn't happen. And no one else with lots of business bucks is jumping in to say hey, I'll fund it. It is after all returnable. I find that strange. So quick to talk. Therefore in my mind, it's still possible.

On that, I personally thank you Pepar for trying, and for peaking my interest. And Nature for stepping up (for a while anyway) and putting up with, well, you know.
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post #393 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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oddiogdog, I assure you that we all wanted a $1500 unit with a $1500 worth of mods to sound as good as something costing $10k. When we all got home mice would have clicked and credit cards would have popped out.

The "science" would have been to remove listener bias with a blind A/B/X test. But the judgement would have been made with our ears. To win, the modded unit would have needed to be picked as the better sounding unit 80% or so of the time. By all of us. Blindly.
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post #394 of 1596 Old 11-14-2011, 08:18 PM
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I now have about 220 hours of burn in on the upgraded Onkyo 5508. Additionally, I have installed a series of new power cords into the system. As things have changed I found that I had to fine tune the position of the main speakers.

So, we are closing in on a time when we will be able to make our comparisons. There is no question in my mind that my system both with the upgraded NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE for movies and music and the upgraded Onkyo 5508 for music playback with the system with many other sources sounds better than it did before the changes.

Rich

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post #395 of 1596 Old 11-15-2011, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

I don't know anyone who is able to do that in my area here in the SF Bay Area ,Sure I'd be willing, if anyone wants to come by .More than welcome !
my 5008 is great since the Mod & if it was not Great, then David would be buying it back from me . I bought mine on-line (Amazon)& then had the mod done . David said if I didn't feel it was better after he worked on it then he'd buy it from me.

What mods were done to your 5008? When you say great what are the SQ improvements? I'm assuming you spent time with the 5008 before sending it out to be modded.

Bill

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post #396 of 1596 Old 11-15-2011, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

When you say great what are the SQ improvements? I'm assuming you spent time with the 5008 before sending it out to be modded.

Bill

Great question.

Specific differences would be great. Richer, more dimensional, less thin and bright, more detailed, better surround effects? Any specific movie scene or song sample moments that you can recall hearing differences and what you heard? Which differences if any are more pronounced? Can you list improvements like i did above but in order of importance? In other words, greater effect vs little but some effect would be nice as well.

Fastslappy, (feel funny calling you that seriously, but then again I am oddiodog) can you also tell us about your experience with burn in time?
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post #397 of 1596 Old 11-15-2011, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post

Great question.

Specific differences would be great. Richer, more dimensional, less thin and bright, more detailed, better surround effects? Any specific movie scene or song sample moments that you can recall hearing differences and what you heard? Which differences if any are more pronounced? Can you list improvements like i did above but in order of importance? In other words, greater effect vs little but some effect would be nice as well.

Fastslappy, (feel funny calling you that seriously, but then again I am oddiodog) can you also tell us about your experience with burn in time?

burn in time was about 750 hours @ that time the sound had changed to where it sounded brite/off. I was told that there would be a burn time & to expect this. . I re-ran Audyssey XT32 & then it was clear & detailed even more than when the unit was back from the mod . The mod completely lower the sound floor with a more detailed, seperation of instrument & better dynamics .all this was even better than before the mod .

Mike

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post #398 of 1596 Old 11-15-2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

burn in time was about 750 hours @ that time the sound had changed to where it sounded brite/off. I was told that there would be a burn time & to expect this. . I re-ran Audyssey XT32 & then it was clear & detailed even more than when the unit was back from the mod . The mod completely lower the sound floor with a more detailed, seperation of instrument & better dynamics .all this was even better than before the mod .

Mike,

Please do not take offense but it seems to me that Audyssey XT32 gave you a clear detailed sound not the mods IMO. It would seem to me that the 5008 should have sounded clear and detailed without running Audyssey. As I asked earlier what mods did TUC do? Again no offense but I do not buy the need for 750 hours of burn in time at all. Total BS as far as I'm concerned. How could anyone possibly determine the "improvements" in a component after 750 hours? Can anyone remember how a specific component sounded before it was "modded" 750 hours ago?

Bill

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post #399 of 1596 Old 11-15-2011, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Mike,

Please do not take offense but it seems to me that Audyssey XT32 gave you a clear detailed sound not the mods IMO. It would seem to me that the 5008 should have sounded clear and detailed without running Audyssey. As I asked earlier what mods did TUC do? Again no offense but I do not buy the need for 750 hours of burn in time at all. Total BS as far as I'm concerned. How could anyone possibly determine the "improvements" in a component after 750 hours? Can anyone remember how a specific component sounded before it was "modded" 750 hours ago?

Bill

no the XT32 was done shortly after the mods , then repeated after the burn
in , the calibration is mapped each time i do one . no offense is taken

Mike

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post #400 of 1596 Old 11-15-2011, 10:21 PM
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as for your thinking BS about mods & burn for for high end parts ,Agin no offense offered but you thinking burn-in is BS, THAT is your opinion . I am more than happy with the work done both in SQ & PQ both were a noticeable improvement . My money was well spent as the work has improved my HT experience over what the stock 5008 was when I had it burned-in OR in use if you prefer that term for 6 months before the mods were done . So I know my system well & what it sounds like( room has not changed at all in the time I 1st bought the 5008 ) , SQ has been improved not earth shattering improvements but worth the money that I spent on them . As for what was done on the mod ,the unit is sealed & not having bought a new unit from David the mod warranty is for a year . When a year is up I do intend on opening up the 5008 to see what was done .The unit currently runs 10 hours + a day. I have not had a single problem with the unit . If in the future I feel I need a new Pre-Pro then I'll look at what David is offering at the time , as well looking at other Pre-Pro's as well
I feel this thread is just a Bash thread anyway ,
I really could care less of most of the posters opinions that have been made here.
I did consider the mod carefully before having the work done . I did my home work on David ,researched other modders ,contacted David's customers (past & present), came into the mod work with open eyes . The buy back warranty is iron clad. I have had mods done by various persons , been to this rodeo before with other gear . So I'm not here convince or prove anything to anyone .I got no special treatment from David ,I am NOT shilling his work or products And no I don't buy into the high end audio cables , connectors, speakers wire or any such snake oil gear .
This is all that I will say about this subject .
Bash away !

Mike

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post #401 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Mike,

Please do not take offense but it seems to me that Audyssey XT32 gave you a clear detailed sound not the mods IMO. It would seem to me that the 5008 should have sounded clear and detailed without running Audyssey. As I asked earlier what mods did TUC do? Again no offense but I do not buy the need for 750 hours of burn in time at all. Total BS as far as I'm concerned. How could anyone possibly determine the "improvements" in a component after 750 hours? Can anyone remember how a specific component sounded before it was "modded" 750 hours ago?

Bill

You can improve your memory using techniques known 6,000 years ago and available today here. Rick Perry should've used it, eh?
Now, when your wife tells you to bring milk home on your way from work you won't forget it.

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post #402 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

So I'm not here convince or prove anything to anyone .I got no special treatment from David ,I am NOT shilling his work or products And no I don't buy into the high end audio cables , connectors, speakers wire or any such snake oil gear .
This is all that I will say about this subject .
Bash away !

No bash, but usually the "high end audio cables, connectors, speakers wire or any such snake oil gear" go hand in hand with the mindset that goes for the mods like TUC sells. And some owners even feng shui their cables and elevate them off the floor like the "L" in Chicago.
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post #403 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 10:08 AM
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My favorite snake oil product is the Shun Mook discs that are just placed on top of components or speakers, that was classic.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #404 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

as for your thinking BS about mods & burn for for high end parts ,Agin no offense offered but you thinking burn-in is BS, THAT is your opinion . I am more than happy with the work done both in SQ & PQ both were a noticeable improvement . My money was well spent as the work has improved my HT experience over what the stock 5008 was when I had it burned-in OR in use if you prefer that term for 6 months before the mods were done . So I know my system well & what it sounds like( room has not changed at all in the time I 1st bought the 5008 ) , SQ has been improved not earth shattering improvements but worth the money that I spent on them . As for what was done on the mod ,the unit is sealed & not having bought a new unit from David the mod warranty is for a year . When a year is up I do intend on opening up the 5008 to see what was done .The unit currently runs 10 hours + a day. I have not had a single problem with the unit . If in the future I feel I need a new Pre-Pro then I'll look at what David is offering at the time , as well looking at other Pre-Pro's as well
I feel this thread is just a Bash thread anyway ,
I really could care less of most of the posters opinions that have been made here.
I did consider the mod carefully before having the work done . I did my home work on David ,researched other modders ,contacted David's customers (past & present), came into the mod work with open eyes . The buy back warranty is iron clad. I have had mods done by various persons , been to this rodeo before with other gear . So I'm not here convince or prove anything to anyone .I got no special treatment from David ,I am NOT shilling his work or products And no I don't buy into the high end audio cables , connectors, speakers wire or any such snake oil gear .
This is all that I will say about this subject .
Bash away !

I'm not bashing you or TUC but giving my opinions of the mods done and the claims by owners of TUC modded components. I have not seen or read any actual comparisons done on TUC products by credible (non-owners excluded) reviewers either in print or online.

I have a few questions:

1. Why does TUC place seals on the cases of components that they mod?

2. Why does TUC refuse to divulge what mods they are actually doing?

3. Why does TUC refuse to back up their claims with actual measurements of modded components before and after the mods are done?

4. If TUC modded components were that much of a SQ improvement over the stock components why is there not more talk about their modded components?

These are all questions I would ask any company if I was considering modding any component I owned. I still do not understand how you can discern SQ difference over a 750 hour period. I personally believe it is impossible even if one knows their system very well or not. Again if you feel my comments or those of others questioning TUC products as bashing then thats up to you to think that. You say you don't buy into the high end audio cables, connectors, speakers wire or any such snake oil gear. With that thought do you doubt those people that do when they say their high end cables make a noticable difference in their systems with no measurable proof? If you do then you might have an idea of my reservations about TUC modded components.

Bill

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post #405 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I still do not understand how you can discern SQ difference over a 750 hour period. I personally believe it is impossible even if one knows their system very well or not.

I have recognized voices decades later without ever seeing a face. It's all a matter of degrees...
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post #406 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I have recognized voices decades later without ever seeing a face. It's all a matter of degrees...

Most likely you picked out characteristics that were the same after all that time, not specifically what had changed.
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post #407 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 06:09 PM
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Most likely you picked out characteristics that were the same after all that time, not specifically what had changed.

Probably. However I guess the point is I rejected thousands of other voices as not being them? Which means I could tell the difference after decades...
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post #408 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 06:39 PM
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I have recognized voices decades later without ever seeing a face. It's all a matter of degrees...

I'm not sure how this equates to SQ differences in a sound system after 750 hours of use. A human voice is certainly not as complex as most music played on ones sound system IMO.

Bill

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post #409 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 06:50 PM
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I'm not sure how this equates to SQ differences in a sound system after 750 hours of use. A human voice is certainly not as complex as most music played on ones sound system IMO.

I can't comment on the complexity of either. However I will say this... not long ago I tested four receivers in my den and I felt they all sounded a little different. It was when I heard the music they use to cut to commercials during Poker After Dark I knew they sounded different. So of course one has to be able to focus and knowing those few seconds for years it was easy.

Interestingly do you think she remembers sounds as easily as visuals?

This week on "60 Minutes," Lesley Stahl reported on a very rare ability: to remember each day of your life as if it happened yesterday. It's called "superior autobiographical memory" and scientists have only identified a handful of people in the world who have it. One of them is actress Marilu Henner of "Taxi," oddly enough.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...-10391709.html
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post #410 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 07:17 PM
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[quote=Charles R;21221951]
Quote:


I can't comment on the complexity of either. However I will say this... not long ago I tested four receivers in my den and I felt they all sounded a little different. It was when I heard the music they use to cut to commercials during Poker After Dark I knew they sounded different. So of course one has to be able to focus and knowing those few seconds for years it was easy.

I think the ability to tell if something sounds different is pretty easy if one feels they hear a difference. Being able to consistently tell which one of the four AVRs is which is the hard part. I'm assuming that there was time needed (more than a few seconds) when switching the four AVRs in and out of your system. From what I have read the human audio memory is not very long or very accurate.

As with the ability to recall voices how does being able to tell the differences between four AVRs relate to the ability to discern audio differences of a prepro after 750 hours of use? I'm not trying to be argumentive I just do not see the relevance of your two examples.

Quote:


Interestingly do you think she remembers sounds as easily as visuals?

This week on "60 Minutes," Lesley Stahl reported on a very rare ability: to remember each day of your life as if it happened yesterday. It's called "superior autobiographical memory" and scientists have only identified a handful of people in the world who have it. One of them is actress Marilu Henner of "Taxi," oddly enough.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...-10391709.html

I saw that 60 Minutes show and it was amazing that the people in that segment could remember every detail of every day going back many years. Not sure if the same people would have an autobiographical audio memory as well. Maybe you could contact Marilu Henner and ask her if she does.

Bill

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post #411 of 1596 Old 11-16-2011, 07:22 PM
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I'm not trying to be argumentive I just do not see the relevance of your two examples.

I think they stand on their own if you can't so be it.
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post #412 of 1596 Old 11-17-2011, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

I now have about 220 hours of burn in on the upgraded Onkyo 5508. Additionally, I have installed a series of new power cords into the system. As things have changed I found that I had to fine tune the position of the main speakers.

So, we are closing in on a time when we will be able to make our comparisons. There is no question in my mind that my system both with the upgraded NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE for movies and music and the upgraded Onkyo 5508 for music playback with the system with many other sources sounds better than it did before the changes.

Rich

Sounds like you are still wanting to do this. Terrific. Is it set-up to still happen then? You have made a number of changes to your system though. Did you not find the processor alone made enough of a clear and detectable, difference? I assume you will be using the same standard power cords on both units for the test.

Did DS also recommend to you 750 hours burn in time? That's an awful lot. Like 2 years of movie watching on weekends. I've heard of 50 hours and 100 hours. But never 750. Any explanation for this?
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post #413 of 1596 Old 11-17-2011, 09:10 PM
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Sounds like you are still wanting to do this. Terrific. Is it set-up to still happen then? You have made a number of changes to your system though. Did you not find the processor alone made enough of a clear and detectable, difference? I assume you will be using the same standard power cords on both units for the test.

Did DS also recommend to you 750 hours burn in time? That's an awful lot. Like 2 years of movie watching on weekends. I've heard of 50 hours and 100 hours. But never 750. Any explanation for this?

We still have to make the arrangements for making the comparisons. I have been making changes to the wiring in the system including the replacement of many of the power cords. The usage of the better wiring including the power cords has been noted as to letting more information, more clarity, imaging, etc. through (the wiring can be the limiting factor for the performance). In fact the introduction of the TimePortal Reference Power cords (and the other wiring) that replaced my Analysis Plus Power cords with the Oyaide 079 ends forced me to fine tune the position of my Oswalds Mill Audio OMA New Yorker horn main speakers.

We do intend to use identical Power cords and HDMI cables for the testing. But, due to some concern that the quality of these wires may limit the overall performance of the equipment, it is my/our intent to use 2 identical of my TimePortal Reference Power cords. Additionally, and I do not want to get into a debate about this, but it is also intended that we use 2 of my Wireworld Silver Starlight 5 squared HDMI cables in the 2m lengths (the HDMI cables may have some affect on both the video and the audio performance). We do intend to also do some video performance comparisons (as well as audio) for the Oppo 83 and the upgraded NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE units.

Our intent is to run the testing on the equipment when there is between 200 and 300 hours of burn in time, preferably closer to the 300 hour figure. This is the burn in time to yield the most substantial portion of the audio improvement due to burn in. Though, it should be understood that the audio performance can quite possibly continue to improve beyond that amount of time.

Where the 750 hours of time has come from is from audiophiles that have made such claims when listening to audio components that have improved in performance as parts including Black Gate caps have been noted to improve. To the best of my knowledge, Dave Schulte has installed quite a number of Black Gate caps in the upgraded Onkyo 5508.

Rich

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post #414 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Rich,

What are you feelings now about using that switch Kal offered to loan us? Unfortunately, that would require another set of fancy interconnects. And where are you now on A/B/X?

Jeff
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post #415 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

What are you feelings now about using that switch Kal offered to loan us? Unfortunately, that would require another set of fancy interconnects. And where are you now on A/B/X?

I can supply two sets of matched interconnects but they may not be "fancy" enough to qualify.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #416 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I can supply two sets of matched interconnects but they may not be "fancy" enough to qualify.

As long as they don't strangle the transparency, detail and dynamics of the modded unit.

Jeff
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post #417 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 12:00 PM
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Hi Rich,

What are you feelings now about using that switch Kal offered to loan us? Unfortunately, that would require another set of fancy interconnects. And where are you now on A/B/X?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Are we using ICs as well as HDMI cables? I only have 3 of the HDMI cables- 2 in 2m and 1 in 1m. I have some relatively inexpensive ICs, but they mostly have Balanced connections.

I am still somewhat reluctant to A/B/X testing particularly with the switching box. I am quite honestly more comfortable with A/B testing (particularly due to I believe we can not go back and ask to listen again with A/B/X). But, if nothing else, if Kal is willing we can at least listen with and without the box to try to make sure that there really is no loss due to its usage.

Rich

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post #418 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 12:17 PM
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Just wondering on the power cord upgrades.
Do you upgrade the outlet/romex/pole wiring to match? Delete any ground fault circuit (they have to cut into things!)? Or is that all acceptable as is?
Maybe a new, seperate ground rod driven in as close as possible to the equipment?
I think it would be cool to have equipment made exclusively with gold covered transistor leads. And IC leads. And maybe design circuits to not need a single resistor, because resistance is such a completely bad thing. And certainly any global feedback schemes! All of it BAD Bad bad! Who knows, maybe even find a way to get rid of those pesky caps, hell, they've been known to leak and screw things up too!
We're so close yet so far~!~~!
Does the TUC re-wave the board in gold solder?
Sad.

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
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post #419 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Jeff,

Are we using ICs as well as HDMI cables? I only have 3 of the HDMI cables- 2 in 2m and 1 in 1m. I have some relatively inexpensive ICs, but they mostly have Balanced connections.

I am still somewhat reluctant to A/B/X testing particularly with the switching box. I am quite honestly more comfortable with A/B testing (particularly due to I believe we can not go back and ask to listen again with A/B/X). But, if nothing else, if Kal is willing we can at least listen with and without the box to try to make sure that there really is no loss due to its usage.

Rich

My meaning of interconnects includes HDMI ... any cable that interconnects two A/V devices...

Re the A/B/X or A/B, I just don't expect that the difference between a $2k stock unit and that unit with who-knows-how-much-$$$-in-mods will be subtle. David's website says it isn't, so that is my expectation. If it is subtle, then that will mean something.

Jeff
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post #420 of 1596 Old 11-18-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

Hi Jeff,

Are we using ICs as well as HDMI cables? I only have 3 of the HDMI cables- 2 in 2m and 1 in 1m. I have some relatively inexpensive ICs, but they mostly have Balanced connections.

I am still somewhat reluctant to A/B/X testing particularly with the switching box. I am quite honestly more comfortable with A/B testing (particularly due to I believe we can not go back and ask to listen again with A/B/X). But, if nothing else, if Kal is willing we can at least listen with and without the box to try to make sure that there really is no loss due to its usage.

Rich

Doing it both ways is completely fair. I doubt there a rational reasonable reason not to try it both ways.

PS. The biting sarcasm before the experiment does show a sense of humor. But it also displays a lack of discovery abilities. Scientists wonder about and explore the unknown and untested and concoct experiments to discover new things. They only USE people who are good at researching and retaining knowledge because they think more like a computer than creator. They are good at swirling information around that has already been discovered by someone else. Since they are good at researching existing info and retaining it, they are also good at swirling around verbal sarcasm to help protect their own deficiencies.

Science is about discovery.

Imagine a cell's understanding of existence. It's universe is swimming around an unfathomably large cavern of goup going about it's tasks. That's it's universe. It simply doesn't have the capacity to understand that it's inside a body that lives a life in a greater universe. It has constraints of understanding.

We, as humans, are much smaller and more naive when compared to our (assumed infinite) universe. We are minute and a very new species compared to the age and size of the universe. And I imagine our knowledge is even more limited in our abilities and dimensional constraints. Probably even if we could use more than 5-10% of our brains. We are still limited by an understanding of constraints. We don't really have the ability to understand not having a beginning and an end. Or not existing as a structure.

Try not to display our naiveness too often until after the test has been done. If you haven't done it, you don't know. You simply assume from what you have read. The sarcasm can lead to the test not happening. Unless avoiding the test for some reason, is the goal.
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