How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

barry, are they serious? i can't tell.

Are you referring to the review or the company that makes the resonator? I believe the company is serious but I am not sure on the review as it seems he was having some fun with it.

barry
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post #992 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post

Are you referring to the review or the company that makes the resonator? I believe the company is serious but I am not sure on the review as it seems he was having some fun with it.

barry

The sad thing is that someone could market a product purely as a joke (while pretending to be sincere), and there are people who would buy it and swear up and down as to the efficacy of the "improvment".
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post #993 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

barry, are they serious? i can't tell.

I'm never entirely sure if Stereophile is serious or tongue-in-cheek. (I hope Kal isn't lurking... if you are, you are the exception that proves the rule, Sir).
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post #994 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

barry, are they serious? i can't tell.

I was wondering the same thing after looking at the website...

I seriously got into the wrong business - apparently you can make and market ANYTHING to the audio crowd and people will swear by it if you tell them it makes a difference.

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post #995 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

The initial justification is (pseudo)scientific, but they always fall back on mysticism when the pseudoscience is challenged--"scientists don't know everything, the human ear is superior to mere measuring instruments", etc etc.

Some of them think it arrogant that the skeptics would dare to think that they know what others can or cannot possibly hear. But then some of these believers will turn right around and assert that "I know what I hear is true" so the available science must therefore be incomplete and flawed, subject to eventual revision that will then confirm what we already "know" to be true.

Now, that's what I would call arrogance.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #996 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 01:05 PM
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But only the science crowd has peer review with others in the field stepping up to challenge ... remember cold fusion? Only the science crowd even considers where the bulk of the evidence lies.

Yes, the question of preponderance of evidence is important, I think. On a case-by-case basis, they may be able to muster up some spirited opposition. But looking at the larger picture, in my view, an awful lot of things would have to be overturned for them to be right.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #997 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

We had been talking to the mod owner for some time and some others in our group were spearheading the effort to organize the test. We had proceeded with scientifically endorsed procedure until we got to the switch, and then you would have thought we had proposed ... I find myself here attempting to come up with something so far-fetched so as to make my point, but words fail me ... it's all so far-fetched ...

Let's just say the switch was the bogeyman, and for the "reasons" I have already posted. That was pretty much the end and some of us threw up our hands in disgust. Unbeknownst to the disgusted among us, one of us continued talking. I was delighted to hear that it was going forward. Only at the last moment did I learn that the mod owner did not know we were going to use the switch.

It is my belief that he wouldn't have brought his modded unit anywhere near a blind A/B/X test had he known. And that would exactly for the reason you cite, though he would have believed it was because the switch would destroy all the fine detail that he knew was there.

I'm sure he thinks he was ambushed and betrayed, but that's always the reaction when belief is met with science. I would never consider questioning someone's religious beliefs as those are, well .. sacred. But this flat earth stuff, this the universe revolves around the earth stuff is fair game.

Guys, I was away for a few days, so I had to catch up on about 4 pages. Just to clarify, my intention was to have the switch available for evaluation by Rich before we did any testing.

Rich was first to arrive, so I helped him bring the gear in, showed him my system and told him about the switch we had available from Kal. I explained that it was the only practical way to A/B the units, Kal had graciously provided 6 pairs of identical ICs, we all agreed to use identical TUC power cables and matching Wireworld HDMI cables that Rich brought on the DUTs, and that we would spend time A/B'ing the units sighted, with familiar material before conducting the actual test.

This was all done to allow Rich to become comfortable with the idea of using a switch instead of plugging/unplugging 6 cables every minute for 33 trials. He told me that David just wanted everything to be identical for both units, down to placing the DUTs on the same plane, identical cables, etc, etc. (Which we did to the best of our ability).

After the sighted listening, Rich was sure he heard a difference, but he was nervous about whether he could pick it out in the test. He did settle down for the multichannel tests, but did no better on either set of trials.

And, yes, I did get an attack call at 9:20 the next morning from DS, but I thought it best not to fan the flames by posting about it. It was to be expected, given stories I had heard before, so let's just say I wasn't surprised. Details now would really serve no purpose other than gossip.

DS and everybody needs to understand that we all were hoping to hear major improvements, and we would have been the first in line to plunk down $$ for mods if we had heard (and be able to prove in a blind test) significant improvements.

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post #998 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 04:50 PM
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David just wanted everything to be identical for both units, down to placing the DUTs on the same plane.....

Just when I thought I'd heard it all. What in heavens name is Mr. S' supposed rationale for this?
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post #999 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

Just to clarify, my intention was to have the switch available for evaluation by Rich before we did any testing.

Sorry, Dennis, for outing you, and thanks for posting the background story. I get very riled up in the face of mumbo jumbo winning out over logic.

For example, when I get nervous I can't hear the differences I've just heard ten minutes earlier when I knew which was the stock 5508 and which was my sooper-dooper modded 5508.

Jeff
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post #1000 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post


DS and everybody needs to understand that we all were hoping to hear major improvements, and we would have been the first in line to plunk down $$ for mods if we had heard (and be able to prove in a blind test) significant improvements.

And there's the real proof in my mind of how powerful the psychology is that is at work here, when I knew which unit was operating, I heard significant differences and I preferred the modded unit.
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post #1001 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

And there's the real proof in my mind of how powerful the psychology is that is at work here, when I knew which unit was operating, I heard significant differences and I preferred the modded unit.

It's invariably the case in sighted tests. Blind is the only way to go. The power of the human mind to deceive itself is amazing isn't it?
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post #1002 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 08:08 PM
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I have to say, I went back and read the initial posts in this thread, and then the posts from when Jeff did the test with Rich, and I think this is one of the most educational threads I've ever read on this subject. I think Jeff seemed to have about as "open" a mind on the subject as one can have, and his experiences were fascinating. It's also apparent to me that Rich's experiences clearly demonstrate why "believers" are utterly loathe to participate in DBTs. How difficult it must be to be confronted with cold hard reality that clashes with their beliefs.

I also have to say that I don't see how anyone with a semblance of objective rationality can do business with TUC, given all the information about it.
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post #1003 of 1596 Old 04-16-2012, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Sorry, Dennis, for outing you, and thanks for posting the background story. I get very riled up in the face of mumbo jumbo winning out over logic. Jeff

No worries... I just wanted everyone to know there wasn't any kind of "master plot" to trick anyone.

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post #1004 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 03:03 AM
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I have to say, I went back and read the initial posts in this thread, and then the posts from when Jeff did the test with Rich, and I think this is one of the most educational threads I've ever read on this subject.

I agree. It is also one of the few similar threads that has not degenerated into childish, ad-hominem attacks and arguments.

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I think Jeff seemed to have about as "open" a mind on the subject as one can have, and his experiences were fascinating. It's also apparent to me that Rich's experiences clearly demonstrate why "believers" are utterly loathe to participate in DBTs. How difficult it must be to be confronted with cold hard reality that clashes with their beliefs.

Especially when the reality begins to dawn that all that cold, hard cash was almost certainly wasted.... I can see why people don't want to confront the facts.

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I also have to say that I don't see how anyone with a semblance of objective rationality can do business with TUC, given all the information about it.

Yes, that is difficult to understand. Unless they bought first and researched later...
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post #1005 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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We should have some more testing of the stock 885 vs stock 5508 to post on over the next few days. Dennis and I are going to spend time Wed evening doing sighted comparisons to select more song passages and then do the blind A/B/X with those songs. I think Craig might be by Thursday.

Jeff
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post #1006 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, that is difficult to understand. Unless they bought first and researched later...

I think the "research" that results in someone buying from TUC is limited to reading their website and having encounters with one of their evangelists. Before that, though, my theory is that they are "pre-wired" to accept without question the things that most of us scoff at as "CBS" - complete BS. And they've probably already purchased something in the CBS category ... interconnects strike me as the likely "gateway drug" ... and are looking for additional "improvements."

Jeff
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post #1007 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I think the "research" that results in someone buying from TUC is limited to reading their website and having encounters with one of their evangelists. Before that, though, my theory is that they are "pre-wired" to accept without question the things that most of us scoff at as "CBS" - complete BS. And they've probably already purchased something in the CBS category ... interconnects strike me as the likely "gateway drug" ... and are looking for additional "improvements."

Jeff

Old PT was a shrewd judge of human nature....
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post #1008 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

interconnects strike me as the likely "gateway drug" ... and are looking for additional "improvements."

I was just trying to relax man, my new silver speakers cables made me feel a real euphoria man, I was feeling no pain man

Why you trying to harsh my mellow man

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post #1009 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 12:52 PM
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I was just trying to relax man, my new silver speakers cables made me feel a real euphoria man, I was feeling no pain man

Why you trying to harsh my mellow man

Some of us just enjoy taking on the role of dream killer

Cheers,
SB
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post #1010 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 01:10 PM
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OK, I won't leave you hanging here. I am surmising that you're talking about the random vs. not-so-random jitter issue, the latter being more potentially audible and the Ashihara data being flawed because it mainly or only addressed the random jitter audibility aspect.

I am not sure where you were intending to go with all this, Nick. I expect you will fill us in when you are able. In the meantime, here are a few of my thoughts which may or may not be touching upon where you were intending to go.

Yes, some people believe what they read when it looks convincing, and this paper seems to have done a lot of damage. Many skeptics have offered suggestions about why we shouldn't accept its conclusions, but they haven't been able to see the glaring hole in the methodology.

So there's a difficult decision - do you accept the scientific findings, or do you think you know better? And if you do, is it simply because you're a Dunning-Kruger candidate? In this thread, I think there's a lot of supposition about who sits on which side of the fence. So here's a little test - do you accept the scientific conclusion, and if not, why not?

Random vs correlated jitter? A lot of people have suggested that before now, but it's much simpler and more fundamental than that.

Nick
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post #1011 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post

All my life I have never understood why humans insist you must believe as I believe instead of believe what you like.There is always someone saying your belief is wrong, no matter what the subject is, involving way more money than an upgraded electronic.Humans have this need to prove others wrong, themselves right, I'm a live and let live guy myself.People have died for beliefs that I don't understand, I find no reason to try to prove them wrong, I have lots of hobbies.......

I think this dude believes that humans should believe what he believes, and that is, to believe what you believe, and not believe what everyone else believes...unless you believe in that. That to me is what it means to be human. I believe Elmo C must not be human then.
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post #1012 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 01:48 PM
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I think this dude believes that humans should believe what he believes, and that is, to believe what you believe, and not believe what everyone else believes...unless you believe in that. That to me is what it means to be human. I believe Elmo C must not be human then.

I believe you lost me there somewhere....
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post #1013 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 02:23 PM
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Some of us just enjoy taking on the role of dream killer

Cheers,
SB

Bummer man

I actually do own upgraded cables mixed in with Monoprice goodies and worst of all upgraded power cables I like to refer to them as my "Audio Jewelry" as they serve no other purpose than looking good over standard well built cables IME. I actually broke a power socket socket in the back of a component with one of my upgraded "aligator grip" power cables trying to plug it in I guess I deserved that. They do look cool though but I always mention to friends that they just look good and I have personally never noticed a difference in SQ.

I do like well built cables and am willing to spend more for them. I am not going to try and fool my-self into thinking they make a huge sonic improvement though to justify the expense. I just enjoy quality made products and am willing to pay a premium.

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post #1014 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 02:38 PM
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Bummer man

I actually do own upgraded cables mixed in with Monoprice goodies and worst of all upgraded power cables I like to refer to them as my "Audio Jewelry" as they serve no other purpose than looking good over standard well built cables IME. I actually broke a power socket socket in the back of a component with one of my upgraded "aligator grip" power cables trying to plug it in I guess I deserved that. They do look cool though but I always mention to friends that they just look good and I have personally never noticed a difference in SQ.

I do like well built cables and am willing to spend more for them. I am not going to try and fool my-self into thinking they make a huge sonic improvement though to justify the expense. I just enjoy quality made products and am willing to pay a premium.

I also like well made cables, but don't for a minute believe that the SQ improves as the price goes up. My HT system uses Kimber in-wall for all of the speakers, but for the interconnects and HDMI cables I'm using everything from some Monster stuff that I found in a yard sale to Monoprice.

I'm spoiling myself with the wires on the tube audio system that I'm now putting together. Speaker cables are the entry level models from Signal Cable, while the interconnects are AudioQuest Black Mamba II, on sale from Audio Advisor. My excuse - I had to buy cables anyway, and these are well made, look good, and the price was right. But I'm not fooling myself, not even for a minute. I know that there's no way I could pick them out over the garden variety stuff available from Monoprice and others in an ABX test. I bought 'em just because I wanted to

Cheers,
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post #1015 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Full disclosure: I bought some upgraded power cords a number of years ago, but only to the extent that the gauge is bigger and the "connectors" hospital grade, and I bought them from a company who prices their products not much more than the cost of the parts, i.e. some $$$ for labor to assemble, but none for ... a fancy ethereal website.

I also own some Richard Gray Power conditioners ... which seemed to have lowered the black level on my projector and seemed to have revealed a bit more detail in the sound. "Seemed" to, but then 1) I bought them used, 2) they do provide needed surge suppression, 3) I do not mention them when I speak about my system and 4) I could probably sell them for what I bought them for.

I think my in-wall speaker wire is Kimber, but am not sure as I built it 22 years ago. So there is the extent of my journey to the twilight zone.

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post #1016 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I think the "research" that results in someone buying from TUC is limited to reading their website and having encounters with one of their evangelists. Before that, though, my theory is that they are "pre-wired" to accept without question the things that most of us scoff at as "CBS" - complete BS. And they've probably already purchased something in the CBS category ... interconnects strike me as the likely "gateway drug" ... and are looking for additional "improvements."

Jeff

I think this is the first time that I've heard "gateway drug" and "interconnects" in the same sentence. What does that make the $600 Denon Link cable? Refined heroin

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post #1017 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 03:17 PM
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What does that make the $600 Denon Link cable? Refined heroin

Refined herion? More like highway robbery

Cheers,
SB
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post #1018 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 03:33 PM
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I have a few Richard Gray 400S models around as well. Never been much of a power conditioner kind of guy making a difference but when I sold my RGPC 1200 and put my API power wedge back into my system the sound definitely got worse, mainly in the bass and this was before room correction. I actually just thought someone had messed with my system and thoroughly vetted my girl friend to see what she did. It could be that the API was actually bad or suffered some damage which led to the difference but when I took it out and got another RGPC the system returned to normal.

We all need cables and protection from power spikes and what-not. The only way it would be the same as what is being discussed here though is if we then sent in our cables and PC's to have upgrades done. There are upgrades for these things too, remember cryogenic freezing of components.

I don't know about you guys but when I get home I am going to add a solvent made from baby dear tears to all my cables. This is said to be an upgrade as the baby dears are said to feed off a very rare plant and the tears contain rare electromagnetic properties. What you get is an expanded sound stage and improved micro dynamics, like a Buck's head has been removed from your speakers. You do need to burn in the cables for a minimum of 4,000 hours but after 6 months of continuous burn in if you don't hear a difference then your money back. I can offer it in limited quantities (sourcing the baby dear tears is not easy) but I have an introductory rate of only $500 for all your cables. If you spent $50K on your system that is a measly 1%, I am almost giving my proprietary secret away for free!

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post #1019 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

HDMI cables I'm using everything from some Monster stuff that I found in a yard sale to Monoprice.

I drank the kool-aid and bought an expensive HDMI cable in the infancy of HDMI. A friend asked me if there was a difference and either I am deaf and blind but it looked sounded the same as the $8 Monoprice HDMI I had on hand. Oh well, lesson learned, at least I didn't lose a finger or something.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #1020 of 1596 Old 04-17-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Bummer man

I actually do own upgraded cables mixed in with Monoprice goodies and worst of all upgraded power cables I like to refer to them as my "Audio Jewelry" as they serve no other purpose than looking good over standard well built cables IME. I actually broke a power socket socket in the back of a component with one of my upgraded "aligator grip" power cables trying to plug it in I guess I deserved that. They do look cool though but I always mention to friends that they just look good and I have personally never noticed a difference in SQ.

I do like well built cables and am willing to spend more for them. I am not going to try and fool my-self into thinking they make a huge sonic improvement though to justify the expense. I just enjoy quality made products and am willing to pay a premium.

This is one of those rare occasions when someone talks sense about expensive cables. Audio jewellery is spot on. If you like the way they look and can afford them, and know they won't improve your SQ, then why not?
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