How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 53 - AVS Forum
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post #1561 of 1596 Old 04-26-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

It's like speech. Use it or lose it.

I'll see if I can interest Craig is a get together for the purposes of planning a comparison. But like you I will need to relearn REW.

Jeff

Here's an article that's about 1.5 years old comparing REW and XTZ. Both systems have been updated since then, but it's still interesting:
http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/wh...coustic-m.html
(Disclaimer: Nyal sells XTZ. Still, I think he's pretty fair in the comparison.)

Here is another article that explains how to interpret the measurements:
http://blog.acousticfrontiers.com/st...ist.%20Rms.pdf

Here's another one comparing REW and FuzzMeasure:
http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm

Do we know anyone with OmniMic? I could probably borrow Audioguy's system if we wanted to compare that.

New thread time...

Craig

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post #1562 of 1596 Old 04-26-2012, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post


New thread time...

Craig

You start one unless there is already one going that is active.
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post #1563 of 1596 Old 04-26-2012, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

My speculation is that Schulte profiles interested individuals to judge whether or not they are likely to purchase and be happy with their purchase. If you ask too many questions, then he blows you off. If you ask the wrong kind of questions, he blows you off.
Jeff

In other words... no idle chatter, have cash in hand, ready to purchase or else...



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post #1564 of 1596 Old 04-26-2012, 02:09 PM
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[quote=mjaudio;21954362]
Quote:
I have the capability and parts to run REW but if I haven't used it for 6 months I have to re-learn it. All the extra set-up and not knowing if I set-it up correctly is also worry some.

I'm in the same situation as I was able to run REW intially but when I tried it a few months later I was lost. There are so many settings between REW, the mic, the soundcard and my laptop that I eventually gave up.

Quote:
Been debating whether the Omni-mic or XTZ is the way to go as they are both much quicker to set-up and measure. The Omni-mic is cheaper by about $70 over the XTZ because I have to pay tax here in CA. I am hoping someone who owns or has used both can chime in and give there opinion.

Both of these seem to be the best options for my level of knowledge. I have read REW has more capability but most likely I would never use the added features. I just need to set aside the funds for this venture.

Bill

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post #1565 of 1596 Old 04-26-2012, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

In other words... no idle chatter, have cash in hand, ready to purchase or else...

Good: Can I buy one for my brother-in-law, too?

Good: How well will this work with my cryogenic power cords?

Not Good: How much lower is the noise floor?

Really Not Good: I follow a thread on AVS on your products and want to buy one of your modded units to test.
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post #1566 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 11:37 AM
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post #1567 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 12:47 PM
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Thanks for mentioning this thread in the 'other' thread Keith. I'd read this thread back when it was about 5 pages long but never posted or subscribed and had no idea it had gotten this long.

Now I regret not bookmarking a site that I read just a few days ago, about a group of audio enthusiasts who conducted a blind audio equipment test.

They had 2 different sets of equipment hooked up to the same speakers using the same type of speaker cable, 1 set of high-end equipment and the other a set of entry level equipment (I particularly enjoyed the 15' coil of cheap rca cable used as an interconnect for the cheap equipment, which was placed on the "high end, slightly unstable wooden chair"). They allowed the 'reviewers' to listen as long as they liked and the guys conducting the test would switch cables from system A to system B as often as the listener's desired, with the equipment hidden from view. They also swapped system A and B every so often between listeners/reviewers.

Out of approximately 30 some listeners, the results ended up in a near even 3-way split between the 'high end system', the 'low end system' and "can't hear a difference".

In the particular case of this thread, comparative rca line level measurements would be really interesting.


Max
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post #1568 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Thanks for mentioning this thread in the 'other' thread Keith. I'd read this thread back when it was about 5 pages long but never posted or subscribed and had no idea it had gotten this long.

Now I regret not bookmarking a site that I read just a few days ago, about a group of audio enthusiasts who conducted a blind audio equipment test.

They had 2 different sets of equipment hooked up to the same speakers using the same type of speaker cable, 1 set of high-end equipment and the other a set of entry level equipment (I particularly enjoyed the 15' coil of cheap rca cable used as an interconnect for the cheap equipment, which was placed on the "high end, slightly unstable wooden chair"). They allowed the 'reviewers' to listen as long as they liked and the guys conducting the test would switch cables from system A to system B as often as the listener's desired, with the equipment hidden from view. They also swapped system A and B every so often between listeners/reviewers.

Out of approximately 30 some listeners, the results ended up in a near even 3-way split between the 'high end system', the 'low end system' and "can't hear a difference".

In the particular case of this thread, comparative rca line level measurements would be really interesting.


Max

Hi Max - I think you mean this:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

I did have it bookmarked because I find it amusing as well as informative and by coincidence Craig posted a link to it only a few days ago in this thread. Interesting test wasn't it?
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post #1569 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


Now I regret not bookmarking a site that I read just a few days ago, about a group of audio enthusiasts who conducted a blind audio equipment test.

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

edit: beat me to the punch, barnes
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post #1570 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

A couple of interesting articles relevant to this topic:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/ba...x_testing2.htm

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=16295

Most of us don't need any more facts on human psychology and those of us that do won't accept any.
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post #1571 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Max - I think you mean this:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

I did have it bookmarked because I find it amusing as well as informative and by coincidence Craig posted a link to it only a few days ago in this thread. Interesting test wasn't it?

LOL, that's the one! I knew I'd come across the link on one of the audio forums, I just couldn't remember which audio forum or which thread.


Max
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post #1572 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

edit: beat me to the punch, barnes

As much as I suspect most of the conclusions are correct and have in the past referenced that website, I no longer use or recommend it.

Sometime ago in the CD section of AVS, one of the members of matrixhifi visited and made a few posts. IIRC, he was involved in setting things up but did not materially participate in the listening sessions. He noted that these periodic GTG's typically involved families. That means wives, g/f's, kids, dogs, etc. while the guys meet to run their evaluations, often just outside everyone is yakking it up and then some.

So, these guys are trying are trying to conduct tests under noisy and pretty awful conditions. If we are to critique thezaks' room as not being conducive to evaluating the audibility of TUC's mods, it would be hypocritical to not similarly critique those guys over in Spain.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1573 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 05:21 PM
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You know, Chu, I was going to post something similar, but figured I'd be eaten by *certain posters*, who shall remain nameless.

I had some offline correspondence with the spanish engineer to whom you refer. I won't quote any of those private communications, but let's just say that I have little confidence in any testing conducted by the site.
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post #1574 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 05:30 PM
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Fair enough. Objectivity is about the ability to accept data and information for and against (which is what this thread is about isn't it?).


Max
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post #1575 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 05:30 PM
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I should've found a way to get this information a long time ago, RUR. I wonder how many minutes the guys get before one of the wives reminds them they're being antisocial.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #1576 of 1596 Old 04-27-2012, 05:33 PM
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we ran our own 'matrix test' as we called it over here a few years ago. We wanted to se if we could duplicate those results.

Whilst the figures are not exactly the same (duhh) we did in a general sense duplicate the flavour.

We went as cheap and nasty as we could on the 'poor' front end, very much 'upgraded' on the superior. I used house wall wiring for speaker leads on the cheap for example.

One additional thing we did that matrix did not was that for the part of the demo we did (we were supposed to do 'round two'..but due to a fvck up on my part grrrrrr, am so annoyed by tha still grrrr....we did not manage to do it) we had the analog output from the cheap end going into the adc of a behr 2496 (bypassed) and straight back out the dacx then to the speaker.

In other words, unlike the matrix test an additional adc-dac step in the cheap end. (the second part was to engage the 2496 and have room eq etc etc)

MOST who expressed a preference did choose the 'better' one, so in that sense not the same result. Those who want to belive can take comfort from that!

The truth is that all were shocked at how damned close they sounded..and I mean damned close. AFAICT the 'quickest' anyone could even begin to distinguish the two was about twenty minutes of concentration. (unlike the matrix test, each was alone in the LP for as long as they wanted, and could switch at will between the two).

Only one person got to hear the expensive front vs the cheap front with the 2496 activated (ie befoire the fvck up) and he instantly poreferred the 2496 side. He previously had walked away from the first part saying 'they sound the same to me'. I watched him do that, he listened the first time to five or so tracks and could not tell them apart, have the room fixed etc with the behr and he heard and preferred that after ten seconds.

I am still kicking kyself for mucking that second part up. Anyway, all agreed that there was absolutely NO 'night and day' difference. It made more than a few audiophiles very uncomfortable.
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post #1578 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I should've found a way to get this information a long time ago, RUR. I wonder how many minutes the guys get before one of the wives reminds them they're being antisocial.

Not to mention "Hey, Pablo, turn it DOWN will ya! We can't hear ourselves THINK in here!"

I agree that, from what you guys say, the test may have been conducted under less than ideal circumstances. Even so... a $700 system, thrown together, and a $10,000 system, carefully set up.... you might expect to hear *something* different between them...
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post #1579 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Floyd, there's no question that REW provides more functionality and far more flexibility, but....

is IMHO more than a bit of an understatement. I've had all the constituent parts for ~two years and I still haven't begun. I'd like to think I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, but every time I think about setting it up and read the owners manual, I take two aspirin and lay down until the urge passes. One of these days I'll have to bite that particular bullet, but it ain't today.

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Almost spit my coffee out on that one. A lot of truth there, although its not quite as difficult as it might seem . One thing is for sure though, Omnimic is magnitudes easier to use. A monkey could be taking measurements within 5 min of receiving it. Not as much functionality as REW but pretty much has everything most folks will need.

lol, yea... the learning curve for rew is not kind...

given the minor cost difference between buying one of the kits and buying what you need to run rew, a "new user" should spend the few extra dollars, as those dollars are well spent as "frustration avoidance"...

a "cheaper" tool does no good if the user can't figure out how to use it... or had so much trouble learning how to use it that it causes them to not really be sure about their results...

rew was a GREAT tool in it's day (still is, for those that have mastered it)... but similar to hcfr for video cal, more "modern" solutions exist that are significantly easier to learn and use...

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post #1580 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 09:01 AM
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Yet another instance of an outbreak of Greatminditis...

No doubt.........
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post #1581 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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lol, yea... the learning curve for rew is not kind... .

More like a learning curb. Later today I will look at starting - or finding one to contribute to - a thread for a comparison between REW, Omnimic and XTX.... Don't want to take this thread off course.
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post #1582 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

David Schulte and others have been having trouble in logging in. I have been asked to post these e-mails:

[i]Rich,

I respectfully ask you to post the facts..."banned from selling on Audiogon?" No, nonsense...Upgrade Co's Audiogon ID is "MusicNFilms" ....again no complaints have actually been levied against Upgrade Co.

Only the vicious attacks in anonymous forums from manufacturers and their cohorts..

wers
Yours in Music,

David J Schulte
CEO & Chief Engineer
231.242.0946

Been meaning to circle back to this, so...

Mr. S was originally selling on Audiogon as mrhiendaudio, but his current status is "This account was either cancelled by the owner, or suspended by Audiogon". His last post as mrhiendaudio was in 2006 and last feedback in 2010. His new username as per Rich's post, MusicNFilms, was registered only three months ago. So, was mrhiendaudio banned, or did he choose to cancel the account, only to later open a new account under a new username?
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post #1583 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Been meaning to circle back to this, so...

Mr. S was originally selling on Audiogon as mrhiendaudio, but his current status is "This account was either cancelled by the owner, or suspended by Audiogon". His last post as mrhiendaudio was in 2006 and last feedback in 2010. His new username as per Rich's post, MusicNFilms, was registered only three months ago. So, was mrhiendaudio banned, or did he choose to cancel the account, only to later open a new account under a new username?

And, from posts I've read here, been selling "by proxy" on Audiogon in between?

Is feedback available to read?

And while I'm riled up, trouble in logging in sounds like hogwash. He posted not long after that.

Everything is a bit too fishy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

And, from posts I've read here, been selling "by proxy" on Audiogon in between?

Odd, isn't it?

Quote:


Is feedback available to read?.

as mrhiendaudio, only one:

"Ok great" http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fb.p...hiendaudio&&&&

as musicnfilm, he received 17 feedbacks in less than one month. http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fb.pl?user=Musicnfilms

The usual testimonial stuff. I wonder if A-gon knows mrhiendaudio is back with a new username?

Edited to add:

Quick analysis of the feedback for musicnfilms
3 were left by Naturephoto 1 within a span of 7 days
3 were left by Dalecrommie on the same day
2 were left by Jack5525 on subsequent days

Busy buyers.....I guess.
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post #1585 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I doubt that a talented writer could have created better feedback. Has he sold 17 items in three months?? (Even less time as the first feedback is mid Feb.) How would we check? If it is possible to leave feedback w/o actually doing a transaction, then I am even more suspicious that his feedback is so well-stocked.

edit: I emailed them to ask.
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post #1586 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I doubt that a talented writer could have created better feedback. Has he sold 17 items in three months?? How would we check? If it is possible to leave feedback w/o actually doing a transaction, then I am even more suspicious that his feedback is so well-stocked.

He received feedback for 17 items within a hair over two months after opening the account. Almost daily between 2/17 and 3/19 with none before or since.

The system does or did make it possible to leave multiple feedbacks for the same item #. I know this because a couple of sellers have left me feedback twice, with different wording, for the same transactions, simply because they had forgotten they'd already done so.

Personally, Jeff, I'm more interested in asking A-gon if they realize that mrhighendaudio is now musicnfilm.
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post #1587 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 02:19 PM
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I laugh whenever I see DS referring to himself as "mrhighendaudio". Now it is "musicnfilm" what will be next "bluegoop&tinfoil".

Bill

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post #1588 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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That's Mr. Bloogoop to you, Bill!
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post #1589 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post


Personally, Jeff, I'm more interested in asking A-gon if they realize that mrhighendaudio is now musicnfilm.

I will query them on that if I get the opportunity.

Jeff
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post #1590 of 1596 Old 04-28-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I doubt that a talented writer could have created better feedback. Has he sold 17 items in three months?? (Even less time as the first feedback is mid Feb.) How would we check? If it is possible to leave feedback w/o actually doing a transaction, then I am even more suspicious that his feedback is so well-stocked.

edit: I emailed them to ask.

Look at who the posters are.

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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