How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company? - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 1596 Old 05-26-2011, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Well the salesman is wrong, or he just flat out lied to you. Both the 80.2 and the 5508 have the option of Audyssey Pro calibration, either by having Audyssey Pro dealer do the Pro calibration or by buying your own Audyssey Pro installers kit.



Make up your mind, they will sound the same.

But if you bet on the 80.2 being better, it would be a bet that you would also lose.



The Anthems ARC room correction has more options and adjust ability than the standard built in version Audyssey that is offered in the Integra/Onkyo, however if you compare it to the Audyssey Pro version, then if you put them up against each other they are probably more equal than you would think.



And of course he is also going to want to try and sell a person whatever he can to maximize his profits, and likely will start out with trying to steer people towards his more premium products.

My points exactly, with both this sales person and TUC; if they lie about things like this, what else are they lying about?

Jeff
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post #152 of 1596 Old 05-26-2011, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

RobertR where in this post does Jeff state a fact ? plz point that part out to us ?
the "I must say " phrase sounds like a opinion to myself & he goes on to state that it's an observation as well , his observation...

Unscientific observation tends to be unscientific.
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post #153 of 1596 Old 05-26-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

It's a well known fact that the mind perceives differences that are not objectively real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPAjUvvnIc

I have little doubt you'd be one of the people who would perceive a superior taste from one of the "gourmet" waters over tap water, and would deride the "charts and graphs" from the NRDC.

Reminds me of a Penn and Teller episode where they set up a fake gourmet restaurant and served plain, ordinary, and cheap foods and wines to the unsuspecting guests. The waiters would given a big speech on each item to build up their expectations.

I can remember one item was a special gourmet desert made with the best whipped topping that was made from ultra pure cream and hand whipped thousands of times until ultra smooth. (They used Kool Whip)

They served $5.00 wine from grocery store and told customers they were award winning wines from xxx country and were stored for xx years , from the private vineyard of .....

Every person raved about their meal!

barry
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post #154 of 1596 Old 05-27-2011, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Well the salesman is wrong, or he just flat out lied to you. Both the 80.2 and the 5508 have the option of Audyssey Pro calibration, either by having Audyssey Pro dealer do the Pro calibration or by buying your own Audyssey Pro installers kit.



Make up your mind, they will sound the same.

But if you bet on the 80.2 being better, it would be a bet that you would also lose.



The Anthems ARC room correction has more options and adjust ability than the standard built in version Audyssey that is offered in the Integra/Onkyo, however if you compare it to the Audyssey Pro version, then if you put them up against each other they are probably more equal than you would think.



And of course he is also going to want to try and sell a person whatever he can to maximize his profits, and likely will start out with trying to steer people towards his more premium products.

Well

I don't consider myself a gullible person...so clearly I was taking some of what the salesman said with a grain of salt

I simply was stating the facts in this thread to report what I was told...not to what extent I believed him

There is actually a comparison here of the ARC and the Audessey pro system posted in one of the Denon forums...by one the magazines
Bottom line the tester liked ARC for HT and Audessey pro for surround sound music

And frankly...to pay $400 for an Audessey calibration of a piece at this price point would be difficult...I would have to be assured that it was a substantial difference

I was not willing to bet the 80.2 sounded better at all
In fact I like the faceplate of the Onkyo better

So...anyway
I ordered the 5508...should be here next week
Got a little better price than I was quoted a month ago...and according to the salesman..it was their last one
Who know..or I guess..who cares if that was true

Trust me...I report back and see if I share Jeff's opinions about a night and day different between it and the 885..

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #155 of 1596 Old 05-27-2011, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

My points exactly, with both this sales person and TUC; if they lie about things like this, what else are they lying about?

Jeff

The point of subjectivity needs to be added...
The salesman could have said anything he wanted to....doesn't mean I believed him

Hence my reason for listening to the 3 pieces that day with my own ears...I have already pointed out in another post, what my ears told me

Could the next person completely disagree with me...sure they could

Heck...to that end..is it possible someone could buy a basic Onkyo( say $500 variety) receiver and not hear much difference in the 5508...sure

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #156 of 1596 Old 05-29-2011, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
The point of subjectivity needs to be added...
The salesman could have said anything he wanted to....doesn't mean I believed him

Hence my reason for listening to the 3 pieces that day with my own ears...I have already pointed out in another post, what my ears told me

Could the next person completely disagree with me...sure they could

Heck...to that end..is it possible someone could buy a basic Onkyo( say $500 variety) receiver and not hear much difference in the 5508...sure

Warren
Based on the improvement in my system over the 885, and the improvement I've heard in craig's system with the integra variants of those two units, I would question The hearing of anyone who listened to the two (in the same system) and heard no difference.

Jeff
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post #157 of 1596 Old 06-02-2011, 06:50 PM
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With all this talk about whether to buy a high end pre/pro vs a cheaper option such as the 5508 or the 80.2, i would like to suggest for those who have champagne taste and beer money to buy the Onkyo or Integra units and send it to TUC to be upgraded, or buy one directly from them already upgraded. Either way, they offer a 100% money back guarantee. To me, this is a no brainer, win/win situation that should put even the most skeptical mind at ease. If you don't like it, send it back.

I have the TXNR5008 receiver purchased from them and i can honestly say that it handily beats my previous set up which consisted of an Arcam AV9 pre/pro, Arcam C31 2 channel preamp, Arcam P1 monoblocks and P38 power amps. This system retailed at over $15,000. David from TUC told me that his upgraded 5008 would beat my system and he's right, it does. His claims are not at all far fetched and for all you nay sayers who want us TUC owners to prove that these units are what they are cracked up to be, i say to you to grow a set, buy one of his pieces and prove to us that they arent. With the money back guarantee what do you have to lose?
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post #158 of 1596 Old 06-02-2011, 11:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jayman_1975 View Post

His claims are not at all far fetched and for all you nay sayers who want us TUC owners to prove that these units are what they are cracked up to be, i say to you to grow a set, buy one of his pieces and prove to us that they arent.

The onus is on the claimer to provide a proof.
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post #159 of 1596 Old 06-02-2011, 11:25 PM
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Random dude simply replaces a few components, and you think his glowing claims are 'not at all far fetched' ?

At some point, IMO, logic dictates you not waste time on stuff that seems suspicious. If I followed your advice, I would probably have wasted a lot of time on crap, IMO.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #160 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Random dude simply replaces a few components, and you think his glowing claims are 'not at all far fetched' ?

At some point, IMO, logic dictates you not waste time on stuff that seems suspicious. If I followed your advice, I would probably have wasted a lot of time on crap, IMO.

Well first off I wouldn't say that he is just some random dude. They have spent years perfecting different techniques to enhance the abilities of a lot of different equipment.

And second, they are not just swapping out a few components. Can I ask you if you believe separates to be better than all in one box components? Most audiophiles answer will be "yes, absolutely". Well why do you think this is? Could it be that separating/sheilding certain components from others by either putting them in separate boxes or applying perfected shielding methods could be the reason? If most of the audiophile world agrees that by separating components to reduce noise interference produces a better sound, then why is it so hard to fathom that what TUC is doing to further reduce noise interference could be further improving the capabilities of equipment?

I am just posting my findings for people who want to hear them. I really wish I had heard of these guys before I blew 10s of thousands on "high end" stuff.
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post #161 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are used to spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a preamp/processor, then you might be highly motivated to think a $1600 (street) unit with a $1500 mod equals what you had been (over)paying for.

Jeff
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post #162 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:


Random dude simply replaces a few components, and you think his glowing claims are 'not at all far fetched' ?

And then some random customer claims there is a vast difference between the before and after, but was never able to directly compare the two at the same time, relying instead upon aural memory of the two components heard days or even weeks apart. This, despite the weight of evidence suggesting that auditions which are even merely an hour or two apart is already too distant to provide meaningful or accurate comparisons. Ahh, but this is where the reinforcing uber-confidence of the upgrade marketer comes in handy, there to prime the upgrade recipient for the astounding improvement for which they are soon to experience.

As shown in the study of human psychology, we tend to be unduly influenced by those who expresses supreme confidence about themselves and that which they profess. Sometimes even despite our own normally better judgements and inherent skepticisms. Once you've taken the deep plunge of time, monetary and anticipatory commitments to the upgrade process, you're already half-way hooked to be swept off your feet no matter what. With a long pre-post upgrade gestation period, where memory of the prior components sound is now too vague to be useful but the resoundingly positive words of the upgrade purveyor have taken deeper root, you have yourself a gourmet recipe for audiophile wish fulfillment.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #163 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If you are used to spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a preamp/processor, then you might be highly motivated to think a $1600 (street) unit with a $1500 mod equals what you had been (over)paying for.

Jeff

well put...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #164 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 11:13 AM
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it really wouldn't be all that difficult to get people to agree with you jayman, if you are so convinced you are correct...

set up a bias controlled test, and invite a few avs members to be participants... mr. tuc should have no problems providing the necessary units and space to conduct the test, after all, he has nothing to lose, and a whole bunch to gain...

all it would take is the results from one bias controlled test... if indeed his modded unit is proven "better", then i can guarantee you he wouldn't be able to keep up with the orders... and i also guarantee you that everyone who, ummm, doesn't agree with you, will say to you "i am sorry, i was wrong, and i will shut up now" (and many of us would likely order the mod)...

simple enough...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #165 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jayman_1975 View Post

Well first off I wouldn't say that he is just some random dude. They have spent years perfecting different techniques to enhance the abilities of a lot of different equipment.

But how do I know that? Do you think audio is rife with scam artists? I sure as heck do. Do you think audio is rife with subjective, emotional claims with no evidence to back them whatsoever? I sure as heck do.

There are 100's of overpriced products with silly claims attached to them. Many DEFY all known engineering and physics knowledge. Even when they publish some scientific looking white paper, that does not make it true (hence the need for peer review in scientific journals.)

Honestly, what's WRONG with being skeptical? I swear some people on this forum think it's a CRIME to QUESTION some marketing copy. Really? Let's stop thinking and listen to Rush Limbaugh.

(Before I get myself worked up here, and into trouble.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #166 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 12:04 PM
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it's always fun when you knock back a few martinis at lunch michael...

spot on post...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #167 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Might as well make the observation that people frequently confuse beliefs with science, and then accept "facts" that support their belief and reject "facts" that do not.

Google "science of why we don't believe science."
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post #168 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 12:10 PM
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^^^

although confusing beliefs with science is bad enough...

it's when they equate beliefs with science that it becomes a real problem...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #169 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

although confusing beliefs with science is bad enough...

it's when they equate beliefs with science that it becomes a real problem...

"Confuse" is the word that "un-affected" external observers use. The confusor will not even take kindly to having their beliefs characterized as "beliefs."
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post #170 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 12:20 PM
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^^^

ah, gotcha...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #171 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 01:41 PM
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[quote=jayman_1975;20521664]
Quote:
They have spent years perfecting different techniques to enhance the abilities of a lot of different equipment.

Who is they? I thought DS worked by himself. Perfecting? Have you ever seen the quality of the work TUC does? I have seen a number of pictures of TUC's "mods" and it certainly wasn't pretty. Ever wonder why TUC will not divulge what "mods" he is actually doing? Have you ever wondered why TUC places seals on the cases of the components he "mods"? Ever wonder why there is not more mention of people actually comparing stock units to TUC "modded" units?

Quote:
And second, they are not just swapping out a few components. Can I ask you if you believe separates to be better than all in one box components? Most audiophiles answer will be "yes, absolutely". Well why do you think this is? Could it be that separating/sheilding certain components from others by either putting them in separate boxes or applying perfected shielding methods could be the reason? If most of the audiophile world agrees that by separating components to reduce noise interference produces a better sound, then why is it so hard to fathom that what TUC is doing to further reduce noise interference could be further improving the capabilities of equipment?

There you go again with the word "perfected". My question is if TUC's "mods" were so good why isn't the audio world lining up to buy TUC's products? I have seen many professional reviews of ModWright's components. Dan Wright openly discusses his mods and doesn't place seals on the cases of the gear he mods. Why doesn't TUC submit some of his "modded" components for professional review? What does TUC have to fear if the claimed performance improvements can actually be proven?

Quote:
I am just posting my findings for people who want to hear them. I really wish I had heard of these guys before I blew 10s of thousands on "high end" stuff.

No offense but anyone here can post their "findings". Without anything other than your opinion to back up your "findings" it isn't going to impress many here on AVS.

Bill

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post #172 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

it's always fun when you knock back a few martinis at lunch michael...

spot on post...

Nah...was sober. But for some reason, was getting mad at this concept that we should always just 'try stuff out' as if our time were unlimited or something.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #173 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

I am not trying to brag or show off, but if you wish to see the evolution of my present system you can look at this link:

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gal...r=naturephoto1

Rich

Wires, Cryogenic treated Romex, Machina Dynamica receptacle covers, Synergistic Research Acoustic ART, and even a HiFi-Tuning CD Disc Demagnetizer? Tell me, is there anything you don't believe in, or won't fall for?

TUC must love you.
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post #174 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Wires, Cryogenic treated Romex, Machina Dynamica receptacle covers, Synergistic Research Acoustic ART, and even a HiFi-Tuning CD Disc Demagnetizer? Tell me, is there anything you don't believe in, or won't fall for?

TUC must love you.

There is a lot that I do not accept or fall for. As to the Synergistic Acoustic ART I took these as a partial payment for something. I originally was going to try them in my system but never did and sold the system. So, I never did use the ART system. I just posted the photos.

I have made comparisons of stock versus upgraded components as I have previously mentioned, though many will argue that the testing was not adequate. I am hoping to have the opportunity to get together with some of the AVS members sometime in the not too distant future.

As to the cabling, Romex wiring, Oyaide WPZ receptacle covers, Oyaide R1 receptacles, etc. many of us in the High End Community on Audiogon and WBF believe that they do in fact have an affect. As to the HIFI Tuning CD Disc Demagnetizer, it too may work. But this is a very difficult item to make a blind test.

Here is a Professional review of an upgraded pair of Marantz components on Positive Feedback that I am sure many of you will insist was not performed adequately, but it is in print:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue53/marantz.htm

Rich

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post #175 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

As to the cabling, Romex wiring, Oyaide WPZ receptacle covers, Oyaide R1 receptacles, etc. many of us in the High End Community on Audiogon and WBF believe that they do in fact have an affect.

What kind of affect, audible one?
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post #176 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

What kind of affect, audible one?

Some of us have performed listening tests on different cables for comparison, as well as receptacles so yes this is audible. As to comparing cryoed Romex I am not even sure how you could do a blind test.

Some believe that cabling can make an audible difference; we have several threads that we have been discussing this on WBF. Some of the more knowledgeable experts and engineers have been making suggestions as to why there may be differences that we are noting. Some of the engineers have been suggesting that there may be some variations that can be measured (though small at least at times).

Rich

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post #177 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

Here is a Professional review of an upgraded pair of Marantz components on Positive Feedback that I am sure many of you will insist was not performed adequately, but it is in print:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue53/marantz.htm

Rich,

Let me say I respect that way you have handled the comments directed to you and have always been civil when others have not. I would hope that you are able to GTG with some of the members of AVS to compare your modded 885 and 83SE to stock units.

Reading through the above linked review I have to wonder what 150 parts of the reviewers CD were changed out. Was he told what was changed out or is this what TUC told him? How does anyone know how thorough the mods are if you do not know what is being done?

Let's just say that David Schulte and company have pushed these units to their sonic limits in regards to their inherent design. And let it be said here that these upgrades are very thorough. Over 150 parts were changed in my CD player alone, plus high quality shielding and damping were also used.

Bill

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Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #178 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by naturephoto1 View Post

Some of us have performed listening tests on different cables for comparison, as well as receptacles so yes this is audible. As to comparing cryoed Romex I am not even sure how you could do a blind test.

Some believe that cabling can make an audible difference; we have several threads that we have been discussing this on WBF. Some of the more knowledgeable experts and engineers have been making suggestions as to why there may be differences that we are noting. Some of the engineers have been suggesting that there may be some variations that can be measured (though small at least at times).

Rich

Rich,

I have to wonder at times when does one that does so much critical comparisons between numerous components, cables and accessories actually just sit back and enjoy the music? I mean when does it end? I'm not trying to be sarcastic but even with my modest system I just try to relax, sit back and enjoy the music.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #179 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Rich,

Let me say I respect that way you have handled the comments directed to you and have always been civil when others have not. I would hope that you are able to GTG with some of the members of AVS to compare your modded 885 and 83SE to stock units.

Reading through the above linked review I have to wonder what 150 parts of the reviewers CD were changed out. Was he told what was changed out or is this what TUC told him? How does anyone know how thorough the mods are if you do not know what is being done?

Let's just say that David Schulte and company have pushed these units to their sonic limits in regards to their inherent design. And let it be said here that these upgrades are very thorough. Over 150 parts were changed in my CD player alone, plus high quality shielding and damping were also used.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the kind words. I do try to keep a level head when possible and treat others with the care and respect that I believe that they deserve.

I know that when David changes parts in units they can be as low as possibly 60 or 70 to at least 150 or more (I believe sometimes more than 200 parts). These can include caps and resistors in particular. As to the question of the review article, I am not sure off the top of my head if the 150 parts was mentioned by David. Also, I have not read the article in some time and I can not remember if the reviewer had opened the boxes or not. I do know that when the reviewer's Marantz units were upgraded that David did not know that the owner was an audio reviewer.

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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Rich,

I have to wonder at times when does one that does so much critical comparisons between numerous components, cables and accessories actually just sit back and enjoy the music? I mean when does it end? I'm not trying to be sarcastic but even with my modest system I just try to relax, sit back and enjoy the music.

Bill

I do like to listen to music all on its own. I have an assortment of music that I use just for enjoyment as well as to use some particular discs that I know well that are well recorded that I use particularly to listen for comparisons.

I do enjoy particularly listening to well recorded music. But, given the choice of well recorded music that I do not like, or music that I like that is not that well recorded, I will listen to the music that I like.

Rich

Richard A. Nelridge

www.nelridge.com
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post #180 of 1596 Old 06-03-2011, 07:17 PM
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Hello,
I prefer the Onkyo variants due to the inclusion of a hidden door for secondary functions and not having a Silver Volume Knob. Obviously a subjective preference.

I do believe if TUC is advocating the Onkyo over the Integra on sonic merits, the claim is spurious. I really believe it is about the much greater ease in procuring Onkyo over Integra as the latter has much more restrictive distribution.

As for profound differences being made from Cryogenic Applications on key Parts, I am quite skeptical. The thing I would want from Modifications would be the use of higher grade Parts to enhance durability and long term stability. Be it higher grade Capacitors, a higher quality Master Clock, and what I would really want to see from such places an HDMI Board that uses much higher quality Parts throughout.
Cheers,
AD

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