The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 148 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4411 of 6023 Old 06-17-2013, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Unfortunately, Jeff, complaints to Audyssey about the bugs and shortcomings in Pro fall on deaf ears, assuming there are still ears there to listen with in the first place these days wink.gif  I believe it was Jerry who compiled a meticulous report (as he invariably does) and submitted it to Audyssey to no avail. IIRC they even acknowledged some of the submitted problems but said they would not be fixed!

Over on the Emotiva threads, Emo is constantly bashed because of the poor quality of their instruction manuals. But at least they actually have some! What possible excuse can there be for having no up to date documentation at all for Pro and many of the Pro-capable units such as my own 5509. If it hadn’t been for this thread I would never have been able to use Pro at all simply because there is no documentation of how to wire it up let alone use it. Some Pro units use network connectivity, some use serial connectivity, some connect the preamp output to the AVR's Aux terminal, some to the PC terminal etc etc... no documentation, so how does anyone know what to do with their $700 kit?  They rely on a bunch of generous guys on AVS who freely give their time and expertise, that's how. Does that sound to you like the way a professional company operates?  No, nor to me neither.

Gosh, when Audyssey sent out my kit with a vital component missing ("each kit is triple checked before dispatch" - yeah, right), and I asked for reassurance that the replacement would operate correctly with my calibrated mic, instead of being given an answer, Luke told me "not to worry" as though I was a 5 year old asking where babies come from. And now Luke isn't even there in a patronising capacity it appears.

Yes, there is much to complain about - and if I thought any action would be taken, I would indeed complain.

Not knowing what is happening at Audyssey leaves us to speculate. Those of us whose configuration works perfectly seem inclined to take it all with a grain of salt along with some concern. Those of us who are having problems, or had problems just getting to the party are more vocal. Not that anything you said isn't true and doesn't deserve commiseration from all of us, but I don't see anything to gain from dwelling on it. Technology comes and then is superceded by other technology. Companies come and go as well. That we had almost intimate contact with one of the driving forces behind the technology we all love(d?), and then lost it and have slowly seen deterioration in support, is disturbing.

Jeff
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post #4412 of 6023 Old 06-17-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Unfortunately, Jeff, complaints to Audyssey about the bugs and shortcomings in Pro fall on deaf ears, assuming there are still ears there to listen with in the first place these days wink.gif  I believe it was Jerry who compiled a meticulous report (as he invariably does) and submitted it to Audyssey to no avail. IIRC they even acknowledged some of the submitted problems but said they would not be fixed!

Over on the Emotiva threads, Emo is constantly bashed because of the poor quality of their instruction manuals. But at least they actually have some! What possible excuse can there be for having no up to date documentation at all for Pro and many of the Pro-capable units such as my own 5509. If it hadn’t been for this thread I would never have been able to use Pro at all simply because there is no documentation of how to wire it up let alone use it. Some Pro units use network connectivity, some use serial connectivity, some connect the preamp output to the AVR's Aux terminal, some to the PC terminal etc etc... no documentation, so how does anyone know what to do with their $700 kit?  They rely on a bunch of generous guys on AVS who freely give their time and expertise, that's how. Does that sound to you like the way a professional company operates?  No, nor to me neither.

Gosh, when Audyssey sent out my kit with a vital component missing ("each kit is triple checked before dispatch" - yeah, right), and I asked for reassurance that the replacement would operate correctly with my calibrated mic, instead of being given an answer, Luke told me "not to worry" as though I was a 5 year old asking where babies come from. And now Luke isn't even there in a patronising capacity it appears.

Yes, there is much to complain about - and if I thought any action would be taken, I would indeed complain.

Not knowing what is happening at Audyssey leaves us to speculate. Those of us whose configuration works perfectly seem inclined to take it all with a grain of salt along with some concern. Those of us who are having problems, or had problems just getting to the party are more vocal. Not that anything you said isn't true and doesn't deserve commiseration from all of us, but I don't see anything to gain from dwelling on it. Technology comes and then is superceded by other technology. Companies come and go as well. That we had almost intimate contact with one of the driving forces behind the technology we all love(d?), and then lost it and have slowly seen deterioration in support, is disturbing.

Jeff

 

Amen to all that.

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post #4413 of 6023 Old 06-17-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Not knowing what is happening at Audyssey leaves us to speculate. Those of us whose configuration works perfectly seem inclined to take it all with a grain of salt along with some concern. Those of us who are having problems, or had problems just getting to the party are more vocal. Not that anything you said isn't true and doesn't deserve commiseration from all of us, but I don't see anything to gain from dwelling on it. Technology comes and then is superceded by other technology. Companies come and go as well. That we had almost intimate contact with one of the driving forces behind the technology we all love(d?), and then lost it and have slowly seen deterioration in support, is disturbing.

Jeff

All true - for what it's worth, Chris K. still posts fairly frequently on the Audyssey Tech Talk page on Facebook. You can try posting more specific functionality (as opposed to general) questions there and see if he'll respond. That's where he confirmed that they were using 1/3 octave smoothing on the Pro Certificates when I'd asked about it.

By the way, the Pro license agreement states that all the accessories are "free of defects in workmanship and materials" and that it will perform in accordance with published specifications for up to one year from the date of purchase. I'm no IP lawyer, but I wonder if legally speaking, the software is separate from accessories, i.e. it covers things like the pre-amp or mic rather than the software per se. And if so, if they have no legal obligation to do more than provide the software on an "as is" basis.

Good thing we have each other wink.gif.

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post #4414 of 6023 Old 06-17-2013, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

All true - for what it's worth, Chris K. still posts fairly frequently on the Audyssey Tech Talk page on Facebook. You can try posting more specific functionality (as opposed to general) questions there and see if he'll respond. That's where he confirmed that they were using 1/3 octave smoothing on the Pro Certificates when I'd asked about it.

By the way, the Pro license agreement states that all the accessories are "free of defects in workmanship and materials" and that it will perform in accordance with published specifications for up to one year from the date of purchase. I'm no IP lawyer, but I wonder if legally speaking, the software is separate from accessories, i.e. it covers things like the pre-amp or mic rather than the software per se. And if so, if they have no legal obligation to do more than provide the software on an "as is" basis.

Good thing we have each other wink.gif.

Eeyewww ...

Does it give the consumer's remedy if it is not free of defects? Does it give a definition of "defect?" wink.gif

Jeff
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post #4415 of 6023 Old 06-17-2013, 12:33 PM
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Eeyewww ...

Does it give the consumer's remedy if it is not free of defects? Does it give a definition of "defect?" wink.gif

Jeff

Not that I can see. But it does say that "Any necessary adjustments or repairs will be provided at no cost to the purchaser", and the warranty covers "parts, labor, shipping costs from the service center to the purchaser, and if necessary, packing materials".

See page 38 on this guide:
http://installer.audyssey.com/files/Audyssey%20MultEQ%20Pro%20User%20Guide%20for%20Denon%20AVP-A1HDCI_5308CI_4308CI_3808CI.pdf

I imagine the language is similar, if not identical, on the other Pro Guides on the Installer sub-site.

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post #4416 of 6023 Old 06-17-2013, 04:18 PM
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I'm pretty sure that there is something wrong with the MIC PREAMP. It is running very hot and the light does not turn on.

I skipped the sub matching screen and went to the speaker tests. It ran the test tone for all the speakers and then reported that none of the speakers were detected.

Just to be sure - I have made the following connections:

- Laptop to Marantz via USB=>RS232 cable

- MIC to MIC PREAMP via long red cable that comes with the kit

- MIC PREAMP to Marantz via long red cable with the small cabe that converts the tip to an RCA style tip

- MIC PREAMP connect to DC power adapter and power connected to the wall


That's it - am I missing anything?
Just one last thing. Did you set the # of speakers up in the AV8801? If you did, never mind.

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post #4417 of 6023 Old 06-18-2013, 12:47 PM
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Hi guys, I am not a 4520 owner but you guys are the ones who have experience with XT32 which has just now trickled down to the X4000. RIght now I have XT on my 2313 and considering I have the worst possble room acoustics I love it. But for only $300 more I can get the X4000 with XT32. When I get my next set of loud speakers I was planning dropping the cash on a pro calibration.



My quesiton is: If I plan on doing the pro in about a year, and I am not working with the amazing amp section and build quality of the 4520, then do I negate any benefit of having XT32 and Sub EQ (X4000) over just XT (2313)? Baically, does the pro calibration have the same capabilities (# of points/filters) regardless of model? I have some other reasons to want to go to the X4000 considering it has 9 channel processing now, still only 7 powered, and if I am not mistaken the dual sub outputs are actually discrete as well as being able to have different video/audio sources and All Zone Stereo . Basically everything the 4520 has except the robust amp section, processing, and the overall better build quality (Japan vs. China) which is a very big deal but the X4000 will go for about $1k so that is literally half and I would say I would get about 80% of the 4520. I just imagine it breaking a few years earlier in which case I will pick up the 4530 or whatever it is then

In case that was confusing: Does pro calibratio have the same capability on any pro-ready model?

I would have brought this to the X series thread but those guys have only been using XT32 for about a week so i figured you would have a better idea. Thanks guys
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post #4418 of 6023 Old 06-18-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by shidfar1 View Post

My quesiton is: If I plan on doing the pro in about a year, and I am not working with the amazing amp section and build quality of the 4520, then do I negate any benefit of having XT32 and Sub EQ (X4000) over just XT (2313)?

Pro calibrations on X4000 and 4520 would be equivalent, as both receivers have Audyssey XT32 (unlike 2313 with XT).
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post #4419 of 6023 Old 06-18-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post

Pro calibrations on X4000 and 4520 would be equivalent, as both receivers have Audyssey XT32 (unlike 2313 with XT).

My take on the X4000 is that for most 'typical' HT use, such as 5.1/7.1 speaker configurations with one or two subs, 8 ohm speakers, and just HDMI or digital audio input, you're getting at least 90% of the value of the 4520 if the savings to your A/V budget could be used in other ways. YMMV, but IMO the difference between 32-bit and 24-bit 192 Hz processing is subtle. Good speakers/subs and room treatments likely matter more.

I wouldn't say that if it didn't have XT32 and Sub EQ, though.

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post #4420 of 6023 Old 06-18-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by shidfar1 View Post

Hi guys, I am not a 4520 owner but you guys are the ones who have experience with XT32 which has just now trickled down to the X4000. RIght now I have XT on my 2313 and considering I have the worst possble room acoustics I love it. But for only $300 more I can get the X4000 with XT32. When I get my next set of loud speakers I was planning dropping the cash on a pro calibration.



My quesiton is: If I plan on doing the pro in about a year, and I am not working with the amazing amp section and build quality of the 4520, then do I negate any benefit of having XT32 and Sub EQ (X4000) over just XT (2313)? Baically, does the pro calibration have the same capabilities (# of points/filters) regardless of model? I have some other reasons to want to go to the X4000 considering it has 9 channel processing now, still only 7 powered, and if I am not mistaken the dual sub outputs are actually discrete as well as being able to have different video/audio sources and All Zone Stereo . Basically everything the 4520 has except the robust amp section, processing, and the overall better build quality (Japan vs. China) which is a very big deal but the X4000 will go for about $1k so that is literally half and I would say I would get about 80% of the 4520. I just imagine it breaking a few years earlier in which case I will pick up the 4530 or whatever it is then

In case that was confusing: Does pro calibratio have the same capability on any pro-ready model?

I would have brought this to the X series thread but those guys have only been using XT32 for about a week so i figured you would have a better idea. Thanks guys

 

Pro 'builds on' the underlying version of MultEQ, so a unit that has MultEQ XT32+Sub EQ HT plus Pro is as good as it gets. Plenty of people here believe, rightly, that XT32 alone, for example, will give a better result than XT + Pro.  Long story short - you have the ultimate Audyssey setup, or will have when you get your Pro kit. 

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post #4421 of 6023 Old 06-18-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Pro 'builds on' the underlying version of MultEQ, so a unit that has MultEQ XT32+Sub EQ HT plus Pro is as good as it gets. Plenty of people here believe, rightly, that XT32 alone, for example, will give a better result than XT + Pro.  Long story short - you have the ultimate Audyssey setup, or will have when you get your Pro kit. 


Until the reciever stops working with Pro but XT32 is still good.
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post #4422 of 6023 Old 06-18-2013, 04:45 PM
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Until the reciever stops working with Pro but XT32 is still good.

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post #4423 of 6023 Old 06-19-2013, 02:34 PM
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Integra DHC-80.3 Connection Errors using MultEQ Pro calibration

I have been trying to perform a Pro calibration on an Integra DHC-80.3 unit with no success. Basically, i get one of three different errors in the MultEQ software sometimes before it even begins the first test tones, but never going beyond Measurement #1, Left Channel. I've read most of the posts on this thread, and spoken with both Audyysey's technical and QA staff along with tech support at Integra and both point to the other as the problem.

Error Message that appear in windows:
  1. On the Zone Configuration page, when Clicking on the Right arrow (next), get an error: “Communication timeout during response transfer, please check the LAN cable
  2. On the Measurement screen, for position 1 (eg), it usually does generate one test tone, and then get this error: “MultEQ Error: Communication with the device failed. Please check the connection and try again”.
  3. And this error when we try again: “Fail to measure response, error message: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

Details:
  • Integra has latest firmware (maybe the problem?): 2012-07-05 - Version 1081-0700-0210-5103
  • Have tried MultEQ v3.5 and v3.6 software on 4 computers (Win7pro, Windows XP laptop, Windows XP desktop, Windows 8) -- all produce same result
  • Have done both microprocessor reset and ALL CLEAR on the Integra
  • Have tried both DHCP and Static IP addresses / have connected through LAN via Router as well a direct-connect with a Crossover cable

Audyysey technical staff says that the 80.3 in their lab works just fine, so recommended we replace the Integra unit. We did that. Surprisingly, we are getting the same exact errors on an entirely different Integra DHC-80.3! That's why we rebuilt a new laptop with a clean install of Windows XP -- presuming it must be a software issue -- but the same errors appear.

Talking with Audyssey further, they said that for the new Integra units, the calibration part of the MultEQ software--because it now uses the LAN port on the pre--is written by Integra. So, my only guess is that the latest firmware introduced some bug that prohibits Pro calibration. Has anyone experienced any of these issues? Please help!

BTW--it seems like Audyssey might be going through a reduction in force--most of their most recent senior technical staff (VP Engineering, Director of Development, Luke, etc.. have all recently left the company between December 2012 and April 2013. Concerning!

SOLVED!
I figured the terrifically smart folks on this thread would have seen or heard of this issue before and have a solution! I certainly didnt think that after 3 weeks of fussing with this i'd find the answer myself, but in doing more readings on a post that was very early on in this thread, someone mentioned removing all other external (ie, IR,...) inputs to the Integra DHC-80.3 when running a Pro calibration.

So, it turns out, we had an RS-232C connection to an RTI controller set up to the Integra (since the unit is physically about 100 feet from the media room) but just the fact something was connected in the serial port at the same time that the MultEQ Pro software is communicating via the LAN port causes either the Integra internally, or the MultEQ software, to throw these types of communication/IO errors and exceptions. Once removing the serial connector, everything appears to be running completely fine!

I did report this back to Audyysey's head of QA, so i hope they include this basic step in their procedures around pro calibration on the new Integra line of pre/pro receivers (perhaps this also applies to Onkyo). Of course, someone at Integra should fix this flaw in their products in future firmware releases but i dont have a good contact there to pass along this information.
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post #4424 of 6023 Old 06-19-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthwestMedia View Post

Just the fact something was connected in the serial port at the same time that the MultEQ Pro software is communicating via the LAN port causes either the Integra internally, or the MultEQ software, to throw these types of communication/IO errors and exceptions. Once removing the serial connector, everything appears to be running completely fine!

I'm starting to feel better about my 4311's inability to communicate with MultiEQ Pro software over the network...
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post #4425 of 6023 Old 06-19-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post

I'm starting to feel better about my 4311's inability to communicate with MultiEQ Pro software over the network...

I don't understand your comment. The 4311 communicates with Pro over an RS-232 connection, not the network.
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post #4426 of 6023 Old 06-19-2013, 02:53 PM
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I don't understand your comment. The 4311 communicates with Pro over an RS-232 connection, not the network.

I guess I should have worded it better. I'm feeling better about 4311 not having this feature. In an ideal world it seems very convenient compared to serial cables, but apparently it can also introduce some bugs as well.
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post #4427 of 6023 Old 06-19-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post

I guess I should have worded it better. I'm feeling better about 4311 not having this feature. In an ideal world it seems very convenient compared to serial cables, but apparently it can also introduce some bugs as well.

OK, never mind. That's for clarifying. smile.gif
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post #4428 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 02:16 PM
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Hello all,

So I've finally taken all the accumulated wisdom/advice into account and am upgrading receivers so I can stepup from MultiEq to Xt32 pro ready. My receiver doesn't actually arrive till next week, but already I am salivating to get it setup and running. The pro readiness of it had me meander over to this thread to get an idea what types of benefits I might achieve with the pro kit. However, I was a bit surprised by the narrative I've briefly skimmed over here in that I haven't seen a single 'WAHOOO - this thing is freaking awesome way better than plain xt32" like post (not saying its not buried in here).

So, basically looking for a realistic view on what benefit the pro kit might give me versus all the investment and "issues' with it - or is this one of those things where I'm likely better off just letting xt32 Auto detect everything? I'm running a 5.1, soon to be 5.2 later in the year, system.
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post #4429 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 02:30 PM
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Hello all,

So I've finally taken all the accumulated wisdom/advice into account and am upgrading receivers so I can stepup from MultiEq to Xt32 pro ready. My receiver doesn't actually arrive till next week, but already I am salivating to get it setup and running. The pro readiness of it had me meander over to this thread to get an idea what types of benefits I might achieve with the pro kit. However, I was a bit surprised by the narrative I've briefly skimmed over here in that I haven't seen a single 'WAHOOO - this thing is freaking awesome way better than plain xt32" like post (not saying its not buried in here).

So, basically looking for a realistic view on what benefit the pro kit might give me versus all the investment and "issues' with it - or is this one of those things where I'm likely better off just letting xt32 Auto detect everything? I'm running a 5.1, soon to be 5.2 later in the year, system.

Well, get the AVR and run XT32 for your WAHOO (not in my vocabulary).  The point is that XT32, done properly is excellent and a major step up from XT for a number of reasons.  Adding Pro is then an incremental advance.  


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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #4430 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Hello all,


So, basically looking for a realistic view on what benefit the pro kit might give me versus all the investment and "issues' with it - or is this one of those things where I'm likely better off just letting xt32 Auto detect everything? I'm running a 5.1, soon to be 5.2 later in the year, system.

I agree with Kal, the benefits are incremental. I suggest reading the FAQ (see post #1). Benefits include better mic, more measuring positions, save and re-load measurements, curve editor, among others.

For the most part, the issues with Pro are reasonably minor, with workarounds. Many of us tend to be perfectionists, so any issues can be irritating, but should not be considered show-stoppers.
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post #4431 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 02:44 PM
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I share Kal's unbridled and rampant enthusiasm.

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post #4432 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 03:10 PM
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Thanks all for your input. I did read the FAQ's before posting and they gave me that feeling that I might spend a good amount of time driving either my wife, myself, or both of us crazy one weekend (or many knowing myself)....so I'm a bit timid on jumping in and becoming a full born perfectionist in this area.


- Regarding the 32 measurements versus the 8 that xt32 commercially has: If you only have two listening positions you care about (on one couch) does the increase in positions matter all that much if you are just clustering more spots in that general vicinity or is their a paradigm shift on how you measure the room (ie you start measure points well outside the MLP)?

- Anyone exclusively use the hometheater for film (ie no music) that felt the incremental gain in SQ was worthwhile?
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post #4433 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

...So, basically looking for a realistic view on what benefit the pro kit might give me versus all the investment and "issues' with it - or is this one of those things where I'm likely better off just letting xt32 Auto detect everything? I'm running a 5.1, soon to be 5.2 later in the year, system.

I'll put in my two cents. NB: it's a given that those posting here are a self-selected group of hobbyists who really appreciate Audyssey.

As to Pro's SQ improvement on XT32, that has been consistently reported here on the thread as clearly audible but not of the same magnitude as the nice big step-up in SQ from XT->XT32. But then again, XT32 plus Pro is as good as Audyssey gets. As to whether Pro is worth it, that depends on you, your gear and your objectives. For ex., perhaps the $ could be better spent on measuring gear and acoustic treatments, perhaps on better speakers, perhaps not.

We've only seen one or two guys sell their Pro kit over the past couple of years. And pretty much to a man, when it comes time to upgrade, Pro users select a new processor based on Pro capability and invest in a new Pro license for the new unit. So it is not WAHOO but it is apparently worth it for most who are fairly serious about good SQ but are unwilling to invest in price-is-no-object gear that could outperform XT32+Audyssey Pro. I am squarely in that category.

That said, the benefits of adding Pro to an XT32 processor follow the Audio Law of Diminishing Returns. Say one spends $1.5-3K on the XT32 processor- you'll not get the same bang-for-the-buck in SQ improvement when you then pop $700 on Pro.

One more point- Audyssey Pro adds some customization features to Audyssey otherwise unavailable and that is of added value to some but not all Pro owners.
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Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #4434 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

- Regarding the 32 measurements versus the 8 that xt32 commercially has: If you only have two listening positions you care about (on one couch) does the increase in positions matter all that much if you are just clustering more spots in that general vicinity or is their a paradigm shift on how you measure the room (ie you start measure points well outside the MLP)?

You need not do 32. There is generally a diminishing return after doing say 12-16 mic positions, especially if you're only going to sample around two seats. With Pro I'd use the same guidelines as to sampling area and mic positions. Most here don't usually use Pro to expand the sampling area in the horizontal plane much if at all. But it's nice to have the capability to add a few measurements an inch or two above and below ear level.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #4435 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 03:55 PM
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Thank you SOM for adding to that, as always you've given me much more to think about. Although I'm slipping down the rabbit hole a bit more, I appreciate being reminded that I may have some other weaker areas I should probably be thinking about and 700$ could very well help pay for at least one more speaker.

I had a notion that I would get the kit along with the receiver and just tweak it all in one sitting, but I'm starting to think I'm better off getting my WAHOO from the xt32 upgrade. I'm coming from multieq, not XT, so this should be amazing.

I'm sure I'll be back in the future biggrin.gif

Thanks!
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post #4436 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post


- Anyone exclusively use the hometheater for film (ie no music) that felt the incremental gain in SQ was worthwhile?

Hmm, do we know anyone who might fit this description? Let me think....
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post #4437 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 04:13 PM
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Does pro provide benefits for a stereo only no sub setup, I.e., two full range speakers?
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post #4438 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Does pro provide benefits for a stereo only no sub setup, I.e., two full range speakers?

I think MultEQ XT32 provides benefits to any system in a room, and Pro provides benefits to MultEQ XT32.

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post #4439 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 05:27 PM
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Yes this would be a 80.2 that I would be using input 24x25 living room with my old B&W 801s.
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post #4440 of 6023 Old 06-20-2013, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post


- Anyone exclusively use the hometheater for film (ie no music) that felt the incremental gain in SQ was worthwhile?

Hmm, do we know anyone who might fit this description? Let me think....

This is very funny! I literally just caught up in the audyssey thread and saw that Keith just said something like this. Another strange coincidence is that SOM used the rabbit hole reference as well in there and I hadn't got that far yet - funny timing.
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