The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 185 - AVS Forum
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post #5521 of 5614 Old 06-07-2014, 04:27 PM
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I have been using the kit for years and never have had an issue with the USB-to-serial adapter. I think you are making a general conclusion based on your isolated issue.
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post #5522 of 5614 Old 06-07-2014, 05:45 PM
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I made no "assumptions" at all, seems you might be though as your ignoring factual evidence. I have a MS in EE and I've also written dozens of serial based home automation modules/drivers. I have never had any serial issues until trying this kit, which works fine with the legit Prolific cable that I already had.

Google "prolific usb to serial counterfeit error code 10" and read up.

The error code I'm getting is very common with certain counterfeit cables as prolific states on their site:
http://www.prolific.com.tw/US/ShowProduct.aspx?p_id=225&pcid=41

From Prolific's site:
Please be warned that counterfeit (fake) PL-2303HX (Chip Rev A) USB to Serial Controller ICs using Prolific's trademark logo, brandname, and device drivers, were being sold in the China market. Counterfeit IC products show exactly the same outside chip markings but generally are of poor quality and causes Windows driver compatibility issues (Yellow Mark Error Code 10 in Device Manager). We issue this warning to all our customers and consumers to avoid confusion and false purchase.

Of course, some counterfeit cables may work fine. I suspect my kit is from a much newer batch than yours and has the counterfeit chip as I get the same error code 10 when I use it. I guess if you want to ignore solid evidence and the numerous folks in the thread who've had to have serial cables replaced by Audyssey, you're entitled to your opinion. But don't say someone is making assumptions when they're basing things on fact, not fiction.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been using the kit for years and never have had an issue with the USB-to-serial adapter. I think you are making a general conclusion based on your isolated issue.

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post #5523 of 5614 Old 06-07-2014, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

Am I the only one who thinks Audyssey packaged a counterfeit Prolific USB to serial adapter?

What crappy "pro" kit. Do they even check this stuff before selling it? If I paid retail for the kit, I'd be very angry. Luckily I scored a deal from a distributor who discontinued selling Audyssey.

My issue is your claim that Audyssey willfully is sending out devices with counterfeit chips, and your disparaging comment about the "crappy" Pro kit. Regardless of your issues with the Prolific chip, this seems to be a cheap shot.
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post #5524 of 5614 Old 06-07-2014, 07:27 PM
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The "prolific" adaptor that came with Audy Pro needed A certain Driver to work correctly, no Timeout or error 10.. I assume the Driver can still be downloaded from Audyssey..

I use FTDI Based Adaptors with Zero issues inc with Audy Pro, Just plug & Play..
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post #5525 of 5614 Old 06-08-2014, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

I have a MS in EE and I've also written dozens of serial based home automation modules/drivers.

Really?

If your first post on this issue had been like this post, and not troll-like, the response would have been entirely different.

I had driver issues when I moved from Win XP to Win 7 x64. In that case I needed to chase down the correct driver as the one supplied by Audyssey did not work. I have seen some others have problems getting the USB-to-Serisl device working and they too involved using the correct driver. I think most of us chalked it off to a Windows/driver issue. Like none of us had had *those* before. rolleyes.gif

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post #5526 of 5614 Old 06-08-2014, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Alrighty, I am awake now but might have only a small window before the Dark 'n' Stormy in front of me changes that. wink.gif

Everything you describe with respect to sound quality with Pro is *exactly* what Pro brings. On the bottom end, ringing/overhang is reduced and that makes EVERYTHING sound cleaner and clearer. On the top end, it brings uncanny timbre-matching so that sounds panning from screen to side/rear and around the room are unchanged.

THX setting on a sub ... subs don't have crossovers, so no "hole" is created. My guess is that THX mode extends the bottom end as is required to be THX certified. To AJ's position of getting the settings out of the way ... with which I wholeheartedly agree ... I would say that THX mode falls into that category.

The other posts on the late night dialog level are probably right, but I would want to rule out room acoustics first. Snap and post some pics of your room ... the center speaker location, the side walls, the floor between you and the center channel speaker and the ceiling.

Jeff

Again, big thanks to Austin Jerry, Lesmore, Ganymed4 and Jeff for the feedback.

Jeff, this was my room back in the UK;



It was all acoustically treated and sounded great. Sadly I had to give it up when we moved to Australia in to our rental however I brought all my kit with me and its lashed up on a temporary basis;



The house is VERY basic with timber frame construction single glazing and no insulation whatsoever!

As you can see my system is the old B&W THX system but without the passive Toblerone subs which I replaced with active B&W ASW800s The whole system must be 20 years old but I love them!. I replaced the front tweeters (the old ones seized) but other than that it's never missed a beat.....literally.

I have an old Cinepro 3k6 driving the system.

Lee.
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post #5527 of 5614 Old 06-08-2014, 04:38 AM
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Guys,

My limited understanding on the crossover issue is this;

First Multi EQ Pro samples all responses from each speaker and the way it interacts with the room and then compensates for peaks and troughs in those responses to get a flat response for as much of the frequency range as is possible. Those compensations then are 'fixed'

It then suggests crossovers based on the lowest value that the satellite speakers can still produce a flat response. (assuming not full range)

The user can then decide to increase the crossover values without any loss of information up to the point where the Sub response, as shown in the graphs, starts to tail off. So if you for example increase the satellite crossover from 40 to 80 hz and if the sub starts to 'roll off' at 200hz then you still achieve flat responses across all speakers.

However if you decrease the crossover value of surround speakers from 200hz to 80hz and your sub rolls off starting 150hz then there will be some loss of surround information between 150 and 200hz.

Is that correct?

Lee
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post #5528 of 5614 Old 06-08-2014, 04:49 AM
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Nearly all of my viewing is done late at night so the best I will get away with is a volume of -7 from reference. My 50 plus year old ears struggle on occasions with dialog during loud scenes at this value. Rarely will I be able to get to reference level so I was wondering if a 'custom curve' could help. Whilst there is a limit to the change in values on the custom curve it is possible to create a 3/5db 'bump' between 500hz and 2khz which I have read will cover most of the 'talking' ranges.

I'm not sure if this has been covered before so apologies but I was wondering if any of you guys have tried it?

Lee
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post #5529 of 5614 Old 06-08-2014, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 008 View Post

Guys,

My limited understanding on the crossover issue is this;

First Multi EQ Pro samples all responses from each speaker and the way it interacts with the room and then compensates for peaks and troughs in those responses to get a flat response for as much of the frequency range as is possible. Those compensations then are 'fixed'

It then suggests crossovers based on the lowest value that the satellite speakers can still produce a flat response. (assuming not full range)

It suggests crossovers based on the splice between mains and sub(s). I think it varies with the manufacturer, but good response down to 40Hz yields "Full" as an option. But even if Full is offered. there will never be an offering at every 10Hz up to the top limit of the sub. Again, it's all about the response of the main speaker and how smooth the splice between it and the sub(s) will be.
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The user can then decide to increase the crossover values without any loss of information up to the point where the Sub response, as shown in the graphs, starts to tail off.

The user can select any of the crossover options offered by Pro. The first one on the list would yield the best splice while moving down the list we are told that the splices become less optimal. (Notice that even if 60Hz, 70Hx, 80Hz and 90Hz are on the list, rarely will they be in ascending or descending order.) We were never given any way to quantify the difference between #1 and #2, etc, or how to weigh the other criteria that is used make a crossover decision. I try to stay at the top two of three options, and I really try to have L, C and R the same.
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However if you decrease the crossover value of surround speakers from 200hz to 80hz and your sub rolls off starting 150hz then there will be some loss of surround information between 150 and 200hz.

Well, the other way around on the 200Hz/80Hz, but yes ... but a speaker that needed a 200Hz crossover should not be used!

It seems that Dynamic Volume is something that you should experiment with.

Lee, we are all glad to help!
Jeff
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post #5530 of 5614 Old 06-08-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

I made no "assumptions" at all, seems you might be though as your ignoring factual evidence. I have a MS in EE and I've also written dozens of serial based home automation modules/drivers. I have never had any serial issues until trying this kit, which works fine with the legit Prolific cable that I already had.

Google "prolific usb to serial counterfeit error code 10" and read up.

The error code I'm getting is very common with certain counterfeit cables as prolific states on their site:
http://www.prolific.com.tw/US/ShowProduct.aspx?p_id=225&pcid=41

From Prolific's site:
Please be warned that counterfeit (fake) PL-2303HX (Chip Rev A) USB to Serial Controller ICs using Prolific's trademark logo, brandname, and device drivers, were being sold in the China market. Counterfeit IC products show exactly the same outside chip markings but generally are of poor quality and causes Windows driver compatibility issues (Yellow Mark Error Code 10 in Device Manager). We issue this warning to all our customers and consumers to avoid confusion and false purchase.

Of course, some counterfeit cables may work fine. I suspect my kit is from a much newer batch than yours and has the counterfeit chip as I get the same error code 10 when I use it. I guess if you want to ignore solid evidence and the numerous folks in the thread who've had to have serial cables replaced by Audyssey, you're entitled to your opinion. But don't say someone is making assumptions when they're basing things on fact, not fiction.

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but for anyone who is concerned that Audyssey is shipping counterfit chips in the USB cable, go to:  http://www.prolific.com.tw/US/ShowProduct.aspx?p_id=225&pcid=41

 

You can download driver package 1.9, which has a utility to verify the authenticity of the Prolific chip.  Running on my system, I get this:

 

 

While this is only a single data point, and I do not mean to question whether etc6849 actually has a counterfeit chip, by running the test yourselves, you can put this issue to rest.  If anyone else finds a counterfeit chip, please report back.

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post #5531 of 5614 Old 06-09-2014, 03:54 PM
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While I have no way of knowing what your driver issue was, in general, the reason folks in the thread have to "track down" older versions of the Prolific driver is because Prolific changed their drivers so that they would no longer work with the counterfeit chips. In other words, Prolific took some of the counterfeit chips and reverse engineered them, deliberately figuring out how to ensure their driver would no longer work -and who can blame them? If you google, you can read technical articles that discuss this driver change in more detail.

I'm not sure how my post was troll like, but OK. Had anyone followed my signature, they'd realize I'm pretty technically competent though. Besides, what troll goes out and buys this kit for hundreds of dollars and then pays a license fee on top of that? Call me stupid, but if I was going to bash a product just for the sake of bashing it, I definitely wouldn't spend my own money to do it!
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Really?

If your first post on this issue had been like this post, and not troll-like, the response would have been entirely different.

I had driver issues when I moved from Win XP to Win 7 x64. In that case I needed to chase down the correct driver as the one supplied by Audyssey did not work. I have seen some others have problems getting the USB-to-Serisl device working and they too involved using the correct driver. I think most of us chalked it off to a Windows/driver issue. Like none of us had had *those* before. rolleyes.gif

Jeff

I never said any thing about willfulness. To quote what I said: "Do they even check this stuff before selling it?" This is 100% a valid point. No company is safe from counterfeit parts, but I'd expect some sort of quality assurance batch testing on all components in a kit this expensive. What Audyssey did was charge lots of money plus a licensing fee and failed to do basic batch level testing on the serial cables before putting the kit together. When the drivers they supply give a "Code 10" error, that should be a huge clue something is wrong. Further, had they read the manufacturers site or even googled the error code, the problem would have been obvious.

As much as I love Audyssey's product overall, I think I have every right to say what I said. I'm not wealthy, but paid $$$ for the kit plus another $150 for the license. Had I not wasted several hours of my time before I realized the cable was counterfeit, I would have been much happier. Think about this, how would you feel if you bought a new car with a counterfeit battery that didn't work right because the manufacturer failed to do any sort of capacity tests on the batch of batteries they bought?

On the bright side, the kit worked great after supplying a different usb to serial cable and I like the results, given the amount of money I spent. The software really does optimize crossover frequencies for each channel (while XT32 by itself didn't do this very well for my set up). For once, I didn't have to use REW to figure out correct crossover settings! I only did 12 points, but may do more when I move next. Once I figured out the serial cable issue, things went very smoothly too.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

My issue is your claim that Audyssey willfully is sending out devices with counterfeit chips, and your disparaging comment about the "crappy" Pro kit. Regardless of your issues with the Prolific chip, this seems to be a cheap shot.

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post #5532 of 5614 Old 06-09-2014, 04:34 PM
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I think it would be interesting, just to close on this topic, if you could run the chip version checker on the cable you claim to be counterfeit and post the results here. If it indeed shows to be counterfeit, you should report it to Audyssey.
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post #5534 of 5614 Old 06-09-2014, 06:06 PM
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Please. You both still wouldn't believe me or would want to argue.

I guess obvious stuff like the manufacturer explicitly saying what error code 10 means is not enough? Maybe one should explore what error code 10 means on Prolific's site or contact their support team directly then.

Now I have to provide screen shots, otherwise what I'm saying couldn't possibly be correct... I have better stuff to do than to quibble with folks who provide nothing (except to link to the site I already linked to), but feel the need to call folks trolls, quote them out of context, say they're making assumptions, etc...
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I think it would be interesting, just to close on this topic, if you could run the chip version checker on the cable you claim to be counterfeit and post the results here. If it indeed shows to be counterfeit, you should report it to Audyssey.
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+1

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post #5535 of 5614 Old 06-09-2014, 06:17 PM
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You are being unnecessarily defensive. My reason for asking was to be able to have a screen shot showing what it looks like when a cable is counterfeit. We participate in this thread in order to provide guidance for others, but if you don't want to help out, no problem.
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post #5536 of 5614 Old 06-10-2014, 01:58 AM
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Hi Everyone,

Has anyone on here successfully got Audyssey to carry out a license transfer to another installer? I have sold my Marantz AV8801 with its license but Audyssey won't allow it to be transferred to another installer. They say I should administer the license for him but as I no longer have the AV8801 I also have no need for the kit so I am selling it. I was led to believe by the FAQ it could be transferred, and therefore I believe that somebody must have been successful in doing this at some point! I have obviously expressed my disappointment to them but they don't seem to be very helpful, and also don't seem to be able to understand that I don't want to keep my kit just to administer his license as it has a significant financial value. Does anybody on here have a contact at Audyssey who might be able to help me?

Thanks,

Tom
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post #5537 of 5614 Old 06-10-2014, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

Please. You both still wouldn't believe me or would want to argue.

Really?? A simple "+1" post is an indication to you that I want to argue? rolleyes.gif
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post #5538 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 08:35 AM
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Confession: I did not do a thorough search prior to asking this: If I rerun Audyssey Pro with a modified target curve, it does not seem to change distances but did seem to change the trim. I know if I do a hard reboot of my Integra, it all gets changed. So my concern is that when I load the new filters, are they loading appropriately ??
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post #5539 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomScrut View Post
Hi Everyone,

Has anyone on here successfully got Audyssey to carry out a license transfer to another installer? I have sold my Marantz AV8801 with its license but Audyssey won't allow it to be transferred to another installer. They say I should administer the license for him but as I no longer have the AV8801 I also have no need for the kit so I am selling it. I was led to believe by the FAQ it could be transferred, and therefore I believe that somebody must have been successful in doing this at some point! I have obviously expressed my disappointment to them but they don't seem to be very helpful, and also don't seem to be able to understand that I don't want to keep my kit just to administer his license as it has a significant financial value. Does anybody on here have a contact at Audyssey who might be able to help me?

Thanks,

Tom
Nope, no chance - as far as I know. This is their business model and I don't know, where you gained your information, but it was very clear to me, that you cannot transfer a license, once used on a device. The license is bound to the hardware and this is - in my understanding - clearly stated on the installer web-site. If you want to discuss this with the CTO try to contact Chris Kyriakakis. He is also answering questions on Ask Audyssey.

Good luck.
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post #5540 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Confession: I did not do a thorough search prior to asking this: If I rerun Audyssey Pro with a modified target curve, it does not seem to change distances but did seem to change the trim. I know if I do a hard reboot of my Integra, it all gets changed. So my concern is that when I load the new filters, are they loading appropriately ??
Why shouldn't they load correctly? It is the same procedure as if you would do a microphone measurement except that you start later in the process. The distances are determined only in the live measurement by calculating the distance of the microphone by using the test tones. If you load a measurement you start later in this process and the distances are not changed - logical for me.

I also did this several times - loading the measurements, changed the x-over, the filters were calculated and finally stored on the AVR. I have no doubts that this is working.
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post #5541 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 09:27 AM
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Agree completely. I have re-loaded saved measurements many times in order to change crossover values, use the target curve editor, etc. and the revised filters are always loaded successfully. Not sure why the trims would be different, but if you establish a new target curve, Pro may decide the trims need to be adjusted accordingly. The distances won't change, of course, because they are calculated during the initial measurement, as Ganymed4 has pointed out.

Be advised, if you did not know this already, that if you load a previously-saved measurement file, you cannot add new measurement points. This is a known limitation of the current Pro version. If you want to add new measurement points, you need to start from scratch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomScrut View Post
Hi Everyone,

Has anyone on here successfully got Audyssey to carry out a license transfer to another installer? I have sold my Marantz AV8801 with its license but Audyssey won't allow it to be transferred to another installer. They say I should administer the license for him but as I no longer have the AV8801 I also have no need for the kit so I am selling it. I was led to believe by the FAQ it could be transferred, and therefore I believe that somebody must have been successful in doing this at some point! I have obviously expressed my disappointment to them but they don't seem to be very helpful, and also don't seem to be able to understand that I don't want to keep my kit just to administer his license as it has a significant financial value. Does anybody on here have a contact at Audyssey who might be able to help me?

Thanks,

Tom
Nope, no chance - as far as I know. This is their business model and I don't know, where you gained your information, but it was very clear to me, that you cannot transfer a license, once used on a device. The license is bound to the hardware and this is - in my understanding - clearly stated on the installer web-site. If you want to discuss this with the CTO try to contact Chris Kyriakakis. He is also answering questions on Ask Audyssey.

Good luck.
I think you are misunderstanding me, I didnt want the license transferring to another device, I wanted control/administration of the license transferring to another kit to be used with the same AV8801. As I sold the AV8801 who wanted to use his installer to do the calibration, and I am selling my kit so I couldn't generate keys for him. This I believe is stated as possible on the FAQ on this very thread IIRC, unless I misinterpreted its meaning!
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post #5543 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomScrut View Post
I think you are misunderstanding me, I didnt want the license transferring to another device, I wanted control/administration of the license transferring to another kit to be used with the same AV8801. As I sold the AV8801 who wanted to use his installer to do the calibration, and I am selling my kit so I couldn't generate keys for him. This I believe is stated as possible on the FAQ on this very thread IIRC, unless I misinterpreted its meaning!
Yep sorry for me reading too fast. But this also doesn't work as far as I know. However, this is a special case and I don't remember that I read something about transferring licenses.
I mean, you can keep your account and give the new owner the updated codes or give your installer account to this person. You don't write this but I understand from your writing that you sold the 8801 to one person and the Pro-Kit to another. Correct?
Unfortunately, I forgot what is necessary to open the account at the installer web-site. If you don't need to have your unique Pro-Kit number, the new owner of your Pro-Kit can open his own and new account and you can give your account to the owner of the 8801.

However, Audyssey should offer a procedure for this. But if you give your account to the 8801 and Pro-Kit owner, this might solve the problem also.

Just thinking loud and just some ideas to help you. Don't know, if anyone of them is suitable for you.
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I have refunded the 8801 buyer the cost of a license now as Audyssey were adamant that it could (i read would) not be done. Once a kit has been registered on an account it cannot be registered on another unless the original account is deleted. Once a license is on an installer account they have to administer the license for a new installer, or the owner of the processor can buy a new license for another account/kit. This is why I am really angry at Audyssey as they have basically got another 150 USD for nothing, when they could have had a happy customer by crediting the account of the 8801 owners installer with the appropriate license and deleted my account which would allow the new kit owner to set up his own account!
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post #5545 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TomScrut View Post
I have refunded the 8801 buyer the cost of a license now as Audyssey were adamant that it could (i read would) not be done. Once a kit has been registered on an account it cannot be registered on another unless the original account is deleted. Once a license is on an installer account they have to administer the license for a new installer, or the owner of the processor can buy a new license for another account/kit. This is why I am really angry at Audyssey as they have basically got another 150 USD for nothing, when they could have had a happy customer by crediting the account of the 8801 owners installer with the appropriate license and deleted my account which would allow the new kit owner to set up his own account!
Yeah, as I wrote already, this is their business model. I can understand that you are upset and you have no choice. I also faced the same problem, when I sold my Onkyo 5509. But I was writing this into the text for the offer and told the buyer he can contact me for license renewal.
At this time I was also quite disappointed that there was no way to transfer the license.

I guess the idea behind this is to generate a bond between an installer and his customers. The customer always has to return to the same installer and this benefits the installer and Audyssey. However, it is not good for the customer but I guess this is also not the intention of Audyssey, that private people buy their Pro-Kit and use it. I mean as long as you keep your AVR or pre/pro, everything is nice but in the moment you sell it, better forget the license.
But this is all just a guess and I have no information about Audyssey's business plan.
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post #5546 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 02:05 PM
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Yeah I made my thoughts known to them about the fact that I suspect a high percentage of kits, at least here in the UK are not owned by pro installers
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post #5547 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 02:52 PM
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Let me share what I went through back in October 2012. I sold a Denon 4308, and the unit had a Pro license associated with it. I opened a case with Audyssey (case 6768 in case you need to refer to it), requesting that the license be transferred to the new owner of the AVR. Audyssey responded that this was indeed possible, but that first the new owner needed to purchase a Pro kit and register the kit on the Installer web site. Once that was done, the license could be transferred. Don't know if this helps in your situation, but I thought I would share it anyway. the actual ticket and the several exchanges back and forth are included in the file below.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ansf___%27.zip

BTW, I never actually transferred the license, because the new 4308 owner decided not to proceed with the Pro kit purchase.
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post #5548 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 02:57 PM
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Thanks. Well that's exactly what I was wanting them to do albeit transfer the license to his installer rather than himself, he couldn't afford my kit that's why he didn't buy that! No use now as they won't give me my money back and the guy who I refunded has probably spent the money now on a new license!
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post #5549 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 03:44 PM
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What am I missing here? I have been an Audyssey Pro user for at least 5 years for multiple processors and have no idea what you are referring to when you talk about a USB to serial adapter. I have no such device nor does my kit need one. All connections are single ended (mic to mic pre-amp, mic pre-amp to Integra; and then the PC is connected via Ethernet cable to the network switch to which the Integra is also connected.

Consider me confused
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post #5550 of 5614 Old 06-16-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Let me share what I went through back in October 2012. I sold a Denon 4308, and the unit had a Pro license associated with it. I opened a case with Audyssey (case 6768 in case you need to refer to it), requesting that the license be transferred to the new owner of the AVR. Audyssey responded that this was indeed possible, but that first the new owner needed to purchase a Pro kit and register the kit on the Installer web site. Once that was done, the license could be transferred. Don't know if this helps in your situation, but I thought I would share it anyway. the actual ticket and the several exchanges back and forth are included in the file below.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ansf___%27.zip

BTW, I never actually transferred the license, because the new 4308 owner decided not to proceed with the Pro kit purchase.
Didn't read your link, but that sounds correct. Each license is associated with a unit, however it is also asso with the "installer" who got the license in the first place. An "installer" is someone who owns a Pro kit. Only an installer can use the license and do the calibration, the assumption is the user would call the same installer to have any rework done. If the user wanted to have a different installer do their rework on the same unit, then either:
a) the old installer could generate a new activation code for the new guy to use (short term, I have done this several times for customers), or/and then
b) Audyssey can move the license to a new/different installer. They'd need the "to" installer obviously. The "new" installer could be the customer themselves if they got a pro kit.
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