The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 191 - AVS Forum
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post #5701 of 5724 Old 10-12-2014, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Keith, what you wrote sounds logical to me. Makes surely sense. However, this raises some more questions for me.
If Audyssey has ceased the development of Pro, why then issuing a new version? Why did Onkyo stop the use of Audyssey? Is there a link between these two developments?
The new version of the software is needed because Atmos requires a special notch filter for use with upfiring speaker modules. If Audyssey wasn't modified to take account of this, it would simply remove the notch in order to hit the Audyssey target curve. As this would then FUBAR the Atmos modules, Audyssey had to take this into consideration, ensuring that when used with Atmos modules, Audyssey respected that notch filter.

Onkyo stopped using Audyssey for, as far as we know, the reason that Atmos and Audyssey both demand a lot of CPU processing power and the Onkyo CPU could handle Atmos or Audyssey but not both. They seem to have decided that Atmos has more market appeal than Audyssey so they dropped the one they saw least beneficial in sales terms. Denon, OTOH, solved the problem by doubling the number of processors in their Atmos units so that they could handle Atmos and Audyssey at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
And something completely different: How to measure ceiling speakers for Atmos with an upright microphone? I think I have to download the new manual from the Audyssey installer site. May be this tells more...
Chris K was asked this directly and said it didn’t matter and we were not to worry about it! I know that we have obsessed in the past about grazing angles and the importance of getting the mic upright and so on, so this latest advice comes as a shock, but that was what he said. And it's moot anyway - with on-ceiling speakers pointing directly down, we have to accept that the mic's orientation is 'straight on' and not at right angles to the speakers as with a conventional setup. I have to say that in my own system it doesn't seem to be a problem - I am measuring and hearing a great result here from the Denon X5200W's built-in Audyssey XT32.
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post #5702 of 5724 Old 10-12-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
FWIW, it takes me just short of 60 minutes to do a full Pro calibration on my Denon 4520 11.1 configuration with the Serial-to-USB interface. This is from the first chirp to the point where the transfer of final filters to the AVR has completed. If it takes 3 hours with an Onkyo network interface, I can see why you would be concerned.
It took me at least twice as long as you when I was using Pro on my Onkyo 5509. It does seem there is a significant difference between the two brands in how they deal with this. I never realised this before. And now I no longer use Pro, a full calibration takes about 20 minutes - bliss!
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post #5703 of 5724 Old 10-12-2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It took me at least twice as long as you when I was using Pro on my Onkyo 5509. It does seem there is a significant difference between the two brands in how they deal with this. I never realised this before. And now I no longer use Pro, a full calibration takes about 20 minutes - bliss!

I have to agree Pro can be a pain for the duration it takes. The Marantz av8801 internal one is fast. Results are very similar, I did the comparison between the two ( pro vs Internal ) and found on my surrounds I was 0.5db different. I guess where the mic was placed could of played a factor in that. I try to get the right spots at times but it's not always the case be a centimetre out.

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post #5704 of 5724 Old 10-13-2014, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It's my interpretation of the facts as we know them. We know that Audyssey needs to work slightly differently with Atmos speaker modules, so the software has to take account of that. We also know that Audyssey seem to have ceased development of Audyssey Pro, hence their failure to fix acknowledged bugs and issues going back years. And we can assume that if Audyssey had improved their room correction algorithms then they would surely not keep this a secret but would announce it to the world!

Hence my conclusion that the sole difference between v4 and v3.6 is the Atmos bit.

It's moot anyway - if someone chooses to believe that v4 will offer better room correction, then they have no option but to upgrade to an Atmos AVR anyway.

Amitiés à toi, comme toujours!
Merci Keith,

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post #5705 of 5724 Old 10-13-2014, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
FWIW, the attached pic shows two of my techniques with the Pro mic.



First, to address the flexibility of the goose neck holder, the key is to relieve the holder from the weight of the microphone cord, which is heavy and which moves around when you are changing mic positions. Simply place a small piece of tape on the boom arm, and secure the mic cable with the tape. This relieves the weight, and protects the holder from the cable tugging on it when moving the stand around.

Second trick is to suspend a weight from the bottom of the mic, like using a plumb bob. By combining this technique with colored dots placed at measured intervals around the MLP, it is very easy to position the mic in close to the same spots for every calibration. While this might be considered obsessive behavior (guilty as charged), I find that a repeatable process, including measuring mic positions, produces consistent, repeatable calibration results. After all, we want to focus on significant changes when we re-calibrate, not have the differences attributable to sloppy mic positioning.

Anyway, just thought I would share some of my techniques...
Jerry & others, How do you deal with measurements around MLP where there is a sofa ? I cannot image that you remove the sofa and measure in an open area with these dots on the floor ? This method would not resemble correct acoustics.

From what I read on Chris' (ADSY) comments, distances or even sequences does not really matter that much as the algorithm is able to work that out.

There seems no real guidelines on the measurements.

I read that also the height of measurement should have some slight variance of couple of inches, while other info tells the horizontal plane should be kept flat - at ear-level or something.
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post #5706 of 5724 Old 10-13-2014, 09:05 AM
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Don't let the picture mislead you. It is intended only to demonstrate the techniques mentioned in the original post. I do not remove furniture when calibrating. That is not recommended. The furniture itself affects sound waves in the room (especially low frequencies), so if it were removed, the calibration would only be valid for when the furniture is not there.

Having said that, I do perform a few "tricks" while calibrating. For example, I lower the back of my reclining chair to ensure that the mic signal path to the rear surrounds is not blocked. And I cover the back of my leather recliner with a sheet of soft material to prevent reflections. Other than that, the room is left in its normal state.

The Audyssey FAQ has guidelines for mic positioning when a couch is involved. If you haven't read the FAQ, I recommend you do so.
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post #5707 of 5724 Old 10-13-2014, 09:09 AM
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While measuring "where the ears are" is a good idea, keep in mind that better speakers have controlled dispersion that is (usually) fairly tight vertically. If you place the mike too high (or too low) it could be off-axis enough to make Audyssey compensate by boosting the HF. My most recent (years ago at this point) seating shift (forward) pushed my front row "down" in the pattern and placing the mic at ear level there resulted in harsh highs. Raising the mic ~6" fixed it.

Yes, that front row is not optimally placed, but my second row is where I sit, and where a guest or two would sit, so I am fine with that row being favored while the first is less than favorable.

In any case, the mic needs to be placed where it can "see" all speakers, and is not subject to reflections from the seat back. Accomplishing all of that can be a balancing act.

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post #5708 of 5724 Old 10-13-2014, 10:45 AM
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The FAQ is pretty OK and I've read it. I indeed perform the measurements as they normally should be done. My seat is rather soft "fabric" so no possible unwanted reflections like from a "hard" leather one.
The tip of the MIC is always in the clear, no obstructions etc.
My listening position is about 1/3 roomlenght from a backwall etc so no adjacent dodgy surfaces that can induce strange measurements etc.

The fact that my Onkyo NR5010 takes some time for the measurements is not really a problem. I'm not in the room while it calibrates and only go in to change MIC-positions and leave it running for whatever time it takes. That is the advantage of a LAN-managed receiver...
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post #5709 of 5724 Old 10-13-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The new version of the software is needed because Atmos requires a special notch filter for use with upfiring speaker modules. If Audyssey wasn't modified to take account of this, it would simply remove the notch in order to hit the Audyssey target curve. As this would then FUBAR the Atmos modules, Audyssey had to take this into consideration, ensuring that when used with Atmos modules, Audyssey respected that notch filter.

Onkyo stopped using Audyssey for, as far as we know, the reason that Atmos and Audyssey both demand a lot of CPU processing power and the Onkyo CPU could handle Atmos or Audyssey but not both. They seem to have decided that Atmos has more market appeal than Audyssey so they dropped the one they saw least beneficial in sales terms. Denon, OTOH, solved the problem by doubling the number of processors in their Atmos units so that they could handle Atmos and Audyssey at the same time.



Chris K was asked this directly and said it didn’t matter and we were not to worry about it! I know that we have obsessed in the past about grazing angles and the importance of getting the mic upright and so on, so this latest advice comes as a shock, but that was what he said. And it's moot anyway - with on-ceiling speakers pointing directly down, we have to accept that the mic's orientation is 'straight on' and not at right angles to the speakers as with a conventional setup. I have to say that in my own system it doesn't seem to be a problem - I am measuring and hearing a great result here from the Denon X5200W's built-in Audyssey XT32.
Thank you so much Keith. This explains nearly everything about this topic for me. As usual, you are a great source of information
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post #5710 of 5724 Old 10-14-2014, 12:57 PM
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Has anyone used the MultEQ Pro 4 with the Denon X5200?

I have tried, and can get all the way to where I start the subwoofer level matching. I never get the test tones... just a pop-up dialog box "Communication Data Error".

Audyssey says the com port driver should be version 2.10.0.0, which I have. If I barge on past the sub level matching to the measurement screen, it then tells me the USB cable is unplugged.

Denon and Audyssey both said to make sure I have the latest firmware, but there is none available that I can find.

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post #5711 of 5724 Old 10-14-2014, 02:22 PM
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Is this Sonnie, formerly of HTS? Good to see you here Sonnie!

Something is fishy with the behavior of Pro. To start the Pro calibration, you would plug in the Serial-to-USB cable into the laptop and the AVR. When you launch Pro, you would choose the AVR model from the list, and click Next. At this time, a pop-up shows which USB port the interface is plugged into. When you click OK, the next pop-up you would see is the box into which you enter the registration key.

If the laptop and Pro software are not communicating properly with the AVR, you would get an immediate error before the registration key box is presented. Pro goes out and makes sure you have the proper AVR selected from the list. So, if you get past this point, that indicates to me that Pro and the AVR are communicating properly (at least at this point), and should indicate that the Prolific drivers used by the serial interface are installed properly.

The only thing I can think of is that the serial-to-USB link has timed out due to inactivity (it has a fairly short timeout setting). To test this out, when you get to the sub level-setting screen and get the error, briefly unplug the USB cable, and then plug it back in. If it is a timeout issue, this will fix it.

Otherwise, time to call Audyssey support.
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post #5712 of 5724 Old 10-14-2014, 02:27 PM
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Sonny, are you using any kind of remote control over IP? If so, turn that feature off in the Denon's settings.

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post #5713 of 5724 Old 10-14-2014, 04:40 PM
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Hey guys... yep... this is Sonnie, formerly of HTS and now with SVS.

Yeah... I could not understand being able to get as far as I did each time and then it timing out. It all happens very quickly though... in a matter of seconds I can get right on over to the subwoofer level matching page. Once I click on it... I get no test tone output and the error pops up. Unplugging the USB cable makes no difference.

I don't intentionally have any remote over IP settings enabled... don't even see any after looking thru the menu.

I am going to do a reset tonight when I get home, maybe that will help.

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post #5714 of 5724 Old 10-14-2014, 09:25 PM
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There was a firmware update available on the X5200 when I checked it tonight. I downloaded it and MultEQ Pro 4 is working fine now. Yay!

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post #5715 of 5724 Old 10-15-2014, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonnie Parker View Post
There was a firmware update available on the X5200 when I checked it tonight. I downloaded it and MultEQ Pro 4 is working fine now. Yay!
Good result.

AAMOI, I happened to know that there was a FW update for my new 5200 when I bought it (my dealer told me so) but the 5200 did not notify me of it even though notifications are turned on. I had to 'force' an update from the settings menu in the 5200 and it then proceeded just fine.

It seems that with the 5200, either the FW update notification isn't working as it should, or it doesn't check very often, causing a delay between the FW update being received and the 5200 actually getting it. You seem to have fallen victim to this. Glad you got it fixed anyway. I believe Audyssey advise on the Pro site to update all the unit FW before using v4 of the Pro software.
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post #5716 of 5724 Old 10-16-2014, 07:47 AM
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Correct... Audyssey and Denon both advised me to update the firmware, but as you stated, the auto notification is not working. I also checked and there was no update until the evening I actually checked it. Not sure if it was available before then or if it just wasn't showing up on my unit. I did reset my unit, so that may be one reason it decided to show up when I checked it.

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post #5717 of 5724 Old 10-16-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Sonnie Parker View Post
Correct... Audyssey and Denon both advised me to update the firmware, but as you stated, the auto notification is not working. I also checked and there was no update until the evening I actually checked it. Not sure if it was available before then or if it just wasn't showing up on my unit. I did reset my unit, so that may be one reason it decided to show up when I checked it.
Two positive outcomes from your experience, Sonnie. First, a FW update is required on the new AVR's for Pro to work properly, and second, make sure your new AVR is reporting available FW updates the way it should be. I am happy for you that all is well now.
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post #5718 of 5724 Old 10-17-2014, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
FWIW, it takes me just short of 60 minutes to do a full Pro calibration on my Denon 4520 11.1 configuration with the Serial-to-USB interface. This is from the first chirp to the point where the transfer of final filters to the AVR has completed. If it takes 3 hours with an Onkyo network interface, I can see why you would be concerned.
FWIW, Dirac Live takes about 20 minutes start to finish with 9 mike positions on a 7.1, single sub system. Pro used to take me about 75 minutes for 11 positions on my Integra 80.2 via Ethernet and about the same on my old Integra 9.8 via USB/serial.

Last edited by fitzcaraldo215; 10-17-2014 at 06:32 AM.
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post #5719 of 5724 Old Yesterday, 04:39 AM
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I may have the opportunity to purchase the audyssey pro mic kit.
I know some said that mic that came with denon x4100/5200 series denon units do great job, but would I notice a difference with the pro kit and same spots of measurements I did with stock mic?


Thanks
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post #5720 of 5724 Old Yesterday, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post
I may have the opportunity to purchase the audyssey pro mic kit.
I know some said that mic that came with denon x4100/5200 series denon units do great job, but would I notice a difference with the pro kit and same spots of measurements I did with stock mic?


Thanks
I answered this, with supporting evidence, in your cross-post, here.
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post #5721 of 5724 Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I answered this, with supporting evidence, in your cross-post, here.
Keith,

I read your answer in the other thread and would like to add my impressions. It may be correct and by the frequency response, that there is only a small difference between the measurement using the stock mike or the calibrated one of Pro, but you can be also just lucky, because you got a very good stock mike.
For me the difference between Pro and standard XT32 is not in the frequency response, it is more in the time domain - if I can express this right in English. It is difficult to describe but with Pro the sound is different, it is more 'clear' than with the standard version. Sorry, but I can only describe this as sound waves arriving at your ear at the same time rather than not aligned with XT32, causing also more interferences - may be the wrong word but my impression.
I have made this experience several times also with other installations, I did the Pro-measurement, means completely different rooms and equipment.
The reason for this could be a more precise calculation of the filters in the PC? I don't know and I guess Audyssey will never tell us. But I can hear a difference and would not say, that the Pro-Kit is only a marketing tool and money making machine for Audyssey. May be it is not so for you, but my listening experience is different.

Cheers Markus
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post #5722 of 5724 Old Yesterday, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Keith,

I read your answer in the other thread and would like to add my impressions. It may be correct and by the frequency response, that there is only a small difference between the measurement using the stock mike or the calibrated one of Pro, but you can be also just lucky, because you got a very good stock mike.
Yes, agreed and I did point that out in my caveats, as it is certainly possible.

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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
For me the difference between Pro and standard XT32 is not in the frequency response, it is more in the time domain - if I can express this right in English. It is difficult to describe but with Pro the sound is different, it is more 'clear' than with the standard version. Sorry, but I can only describe this as sound waves arriving at your ear at the same time rather than not aligned with XT32, causing also more interferences - may be the wrong word but my impression.
I understand what you are saying, but I am not even convinced that Audyssey does any worthwhile correction in the time domain (other than as a by-product of corrections in the frequency domain). If you hear the differences you describe, I respect that, while at the same time saying that I don't hear these differences here. But our ears, our rooms, our calibrations will be sure to be different of course, which may explain all sorts of things. Please don't misunderstand my intention here: it is not to disrespect Pro or to try to persuade anyone not to use Pro - it is just my own finding, supported by listening and measurements, in my own room. Others may well find different conclusions. I just wanted to point out that Pro does not automatically guarantee a better sound than XT32 alone provides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
I have made this experience several times also with other installations, I did the Pro-measurement, means completely different rooms and equipment.
The reason for this could be a more precise calculation of the filters in the PC? I don't know and I guess Audyssey will never tell us. But I can hear a difference and would not say, that the Pro-Kit is only a marketing tool and money making machine for Audyssey. May be it is not so for you, but my listening experience is different.

Cheers Markus
And that is a very good reason for you to keep the Pro Kit and to keep on using it. I respect that and would repeat, as affirmed in my post in the other thread, that this is a personal opinion based solely on my own experience in my own room. Others (AustinJerry and Audioguy) have commented in the other thread that they are in broad agreement with my own findings, so I am not a 'lone voice' on this, but equally there are others who will disagree.
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post #5723 of 5724 Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM
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I fully agree and understand. I also fully respect your opinion and it is, as you wrote. Nobody is the same, especially regarding the hearing experience and I also respect this. Thank you Keith.
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post #5724 of 5724 Old Yesterday, 12:48 PM
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I fully agree and understand. I also fully respect your opinion and it is, as you wrote. Nobody is the same, especially regarding the hearing experience and I also respect this. Thank you Keith.
+1 Markus.
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