The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 194 - AVS Forum
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post #5791 of 5802 Old Yesterday, 10:42 AM
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I don't have Golden Ears like SoundofMind (where has that guy been lately?), so other than the difference in bass response that I have already mentioned, I can't with any certainty tell a difference.

Crossovers are 80Hz for both calibrations.

I may have wasted a lot of time on an analysis that doesn't seem to prove anything.
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post #5792 of 5802 Old Yesterday, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't have Golden Ears like SoundofMind (where has that guy been lately?), so other than the difference in bass response that I have already mentioned, I can't with any certainty tell a difference.

Crossovers are 80Hz for both calibrations.

I may have wasted a lot of time on an analysis that doesn't seem to prove anything.
Does the Denon provide a sub channel graph?
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post #5793 of 5802 Old Yesterday, 10:56 AM
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post #5794 of 5802 Old Today, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
My bone of contention seems to be getting lost ... or ignored. If there is no measurable difference on your system, then there is no difference on your system. Ditto for Jerry's. Jerry seems agnostic on what, if anything, that means for the rest of us whereas you seem to be on a crusade.
No crusade Jeff. Just pointing out that the measurements do not lie. There is no significant (audible) difference between Pro and XT32 when measured. If you want to do your own measurements and they show a difference, please do so.

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Keith, the scientific rigor is not mine, it is SCIENCE'S.
Yes - you demand it of me but you expect me to go along with your "I hear a difference so there is a difference" schtick. It is odd and ironic that you seem to have such regard for scientific rigor while at the same time relying solely on subjective "I hear a difference". Or does scientific rigor only apply to me?

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Again, you miss (or ignore) my point. Just because you and Jerry don't hear/measure a difference does not mean that there will be no difference for anyone. Where is your evidence to support that leap of logic?
OK - show me the measurements where there is a difference. If you can't, then we have to work with the evidence we have.

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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Well, duh. How many times have you schlepped your test gear to a home theater gathering or to an audio store to test for a difference you hear between two pieces of kit?

Jeff
There is zero point in listening to gear in a store, so it is something I don't do. Total waste of time.

Last edited by kbarnes701; Today at 02:48 AM.
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post #5795 of 5802 Old Today, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
In any case I applaud Jerry for taking the time do do the tests as I am sure it was very time consuming.
Yes, we all owe a debt to Jerry for his sterling work in this and other threads.

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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Having the ability in Pro to save calibrations.
Serves no purpose if you have a Denon or Marantz (and they are the only makes now that support Audyssey XT32). With D&M you can save and load configurations at will.

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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Revisit the calibration to change crossovers at will without having to re-run 11.2 channels and 8 positions.
True - how often does anyone do that?

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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Also having a before and after graph even if it is arguably of little benefit is IMHO a very useful tool.
It would be useful if there actually was an after graph, but there isn't. It is just a graph showing, in graphic form, what Audyssey intended to do.

But these features are very minor IMO considering the high cost of the kit. If we are looking to spend 700 bucks to get an audible difference, then spend it on something that actually makes a huge audible difference, not on something which, at best, makes a tiny difference or none at all.

$700 of acoustic treatments will bring a significant audible difference - one that can be as easily heard as measured. So would a $700 subwoofer upgrade in many cases.
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post #5796 of 5802 Old Today, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Still. There is enough evidence that the filter calculation quality is not an issue on the non-Pro version (or at least it is not more an issue than the Pro). The difference are only features (for someone may be essential) and flexibility.
Agreed. This is all that I am saying, even though it has sparked the evangelist in Jeff Little or no audible difference between XT32 and Pro 'out of the box', but some additional convenience features. Are those convenience features worth $700? No in my view.

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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

I think the standard version is too much limited artificially... There is nothing preventing it to accept F3 target that is set in bass-management by the user prior to calibration. And it it would do that the quality of calibration would be a lot better in many cases, negate the need for pro.
That would be a good feature.
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post #5797 of 5802 Old Today, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I was surprised to see more differences below 100Hz than I expected, and I don't have any theories about what might cause the differences. Note that the sub channel trims for the Consumer calibration were 3.5 dB lower than the Pro calibration, also unexplained. In general, the Pro cal looks better below 100Hz. So Keith, since you value your bass response, better get cracking on that Pro calibration!
You've seen my XT32 measurements - how would Pro improve on essentially flat from 7-125Hz? Here is the XT32 graph from my Denon X5200 again:



Once you introduce the room into the discussion, IMO all bets are off. If the preout measurements show that the correction filters created by Pro and XT32 are essentially the same, then they are essentially the same. If the in-room measurements show something different, then the room is the factor. As we all have different rooms, I can't quite see how this fits in with the subject of 'is a Pro calibration doing more than an XT32 calibration?' when the preout measurements show that it isn't (significantly).

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
My theory is that differences in the EQ graphs have something to do with the fact that Pro assigns crossovers before the filters are applied, and with a Consumer cal, crossovers are assigned after the filters are applied. For my calibrations, the LCR speakers are all set to Large by the Consumer cal and changed to 80Hz after the fact, while in Pro the crossovers are set to 80Hz before saving to the AVR.
You may be on to something there. However, Pro never assigned my crossovers correctly anyway, almost always offering Large as the first option, and never offering the same choices twice in different calibration runs. The crossovers offered seemed almost random to me. I have kept full notes of all my Pro calibrations so I can show these if anyone wants to see them - but the offered crossovers are all over the place. As a consequence I personally never attached much significance to the fact that the crossovers are assigned before the filters are applied. As Igor says though, this should help give a better blend at the splice. But I have still always had to manually adjust that anyway when using Pro, and I always, always improved on what Pro could do.
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post #5798 of 5802 Old Today, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't have Golden Ears like SoundofMind (where has that guy been lately?), so other than the difference in bass response that I have already mentioned, I can't with any certainty tell a difference.

Crossovers are 80Hz for both calibrations.

I may have wasted a lot of time on an analysis that doesn't seem to prove anything.
I don't think the time was wasted, Jerry, FWIW. Like Edison is alleged to have said after he had failed on his 10,000th attempt to make a light bulb: "I now know 10,000 ways not to make a light bulb."

The telling point seems to be that someone can spend $700 on a Pro kit and calibrate their system/room or they can use the 'free' XT32 that comes with their AVR, and they may not hear any difference between the two calibrations, nor indeed measure any significant differences at the preouts. I think this is worthwhile, even if all it does is cause people to hesitate before spending $700 and to consider if that same money might be better spent on things which are guaranteed to make an audible difference. There will always be 'believers' and that is fine - it is their own money they are spending after all. And there will always be those who are more swayed by an evidential approach. Without your efforts towards the latter, there would be no progress and all we would have are purely subjective "I hear a difference" and "I don't hear a difference" reports. As we know, it took Edison some time, but he did get there in the end
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post #5799 of 5802 Old Today, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
What other "measurable aspects"?
2 spring to mind; distortion & phase. Obviously you need a loudspeaker to play back that filtered signal to see what the effects are though & then you get into the question of relating a measurement like that to what we hear.
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post #5800 of 5802 Old Today, 05:25 AM
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I also agree strongly, that your time, AJ, was not wasted. We have a very interesting discussion here, but by showing the Denon graphs, a somehow inconclusive result - imo.

If I may summarize, what I am thinking after reading all the arguments here and also looking at the graphs:

1. It only counts what you hear!
2. A single or MCH frequency graph/s do not tell you what you will hear
3. A presumably better looking graph cannot tell you if something sounds 'better' or 'different'
4. A graph can only tell you the obvious and is only one part of the whole story - in acoustics

Thus said, I can only say thank you again for your work! Keith included.

But personally, I would not rely too much on frequency graphs. Your measurements give me a good indication, which is not too surprising for me. But to draw the conclusion, that the Pro-Kit is a superfluous gadget, is not the right conclusion for me.
I understand very well, why you say so and it is plain because you don't hear a difference. I can hear a difference but I am using it in a non-treated room.

But what is also for me absolutely true: The differences are not breathtaking and the Pro-Kit is NOT a must have. For most people standard XT32 will do and this is also the intention of Audyssey.
And, if you have invested a lot of money in the acoustic treatment of your room, the Pro-Kit may not improve the sound quality. Whereas in a non-treated room it might show more effect. But this really depends on the room.

Whether you are spending the money for the Pro-Kit or not is your own decision and as it is with all things, some think it is not worth it and some think that it is worth it.
My personal opinion is that I am happy with it and it does for me what I expect.

And one more thing, in fact you should not use Audyssey. Instead you should invest thousands of Dollars in acoustic treatment, excellent speakers and electronics, if you can.
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post #5801 of 5802 Old Today, 05:54 AM
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Thank you for your kind words, Ganymed, and for a well-worded summary, with which I agree. I think our interesting and spirited discussion has been worthwhile, and has improved our overall knowledge of Pro. Perhaps suggesting it was a waste of time was a bit of an exaggeration.
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post #5802 of 5802 Old Today, 06:16 AM
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Keith, based on column inches, you have won the debate.
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