The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 5642 Old 07-10-2011, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

I had a tough time with my subs as well counsil. Never really had a problem before with normal XT. I always go back and check the response via my Velodyne SMS-1, mainly for the transition between the subs and speakers. On occasion I would even rune REW but I have to drag the XP laptop over for that. I did notice the response wasn't as good as I was expecting but only varied slightly so I left the SMS-1 out of the mix but it took time to get it right.

I want to just post the graphs of how horribly Audyssey Pro calibrated my Denon 4311 (consistently even after moving my subs around multiple times).

Before using the DCX (Audyssey off (green) and Audyssey on (light blue))...



After using the DCX (again Audyssey off (green) and Audyssey on (light blue))...



The above sweeps were taken with my mains crossed over at 250Hz.

As you can see, using the DCX to perform the time-alignment and level-matching before running Audyssey Pro has achieved far superior results.

I have the SW1 output of my Denon connected to the Input A of the DCX, then outputs 1, 2, 3, and 4 of the DCX connected to my subs. Therefore Audyssey sees all of my subs as one and corrects them as one.

I just wanted to share my experiences just in case it helps someone else or if someone sees me doing something glaringly wrong (most likely ).

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post #32 of 5642 Old 07-10-2011, 09:33 PM
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Also, just for full disclosure, when I ran Audyssey Pro on my Denon (before using the DCX) I essentially had 3 subs. One in each front corner (symmetrical and equidistant from the MLP) and one in the rear. I had the two subs in the front connected to SW1 on my Denon and the rear sub connected to SW2.

Again, Audyssey Pro never had a problem with this when I was using the Audyssey Sub Equalizer (supposedly the same technology as in the Denon 4311). Its MultEQ XT32 in my Denon that seems to be the *problem*.

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post #33 of 5642 Old 07-10-2011, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

The only thread I could find on this topic on AVS is defunct so I thought I'd try starting a new one.

For future reference, all you need to do to defuncticate a thread is post to it, unless it was locked.

Noah
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post #34 of 5642 Old 07-10-2011, 09:56 PM
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Here is my latest Audyssey Pro certificate for everyone's viewing pleasure...

Attachment 217310

I need to lower the gains on all my sub outputs in the DCX by a few dBs then re-run Audyssey Pro. Right now Audyssey is setting my sub trim at -12 (the max).

What's weird is that Audyssey Pro read my subs as ~80dB during the level-matching screen. I would have expected Audyssey to set my sub trim to -5 dB or so. Using the old RatShack SPL meter my subs only read 68/69 dB while all my other speakers read 73/74 dB so something is still fishy there. But that's a whole different can of worms.

 

Denon4311SubMersivesEpikEmpiresAudysseyProTake4.pdf 381.6044921875k . file

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post #35 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 03:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

So when you got to the sub volume level prior to calibration were the levels still within the 71.5 to 75db level that audyssey wants? I actually ran my last calibration with the subs barely hitting... the minimum. I just looked at my sub levels and they are at -12...

Yes, correct, IIRC each was at 73-75. I'd contact Luke for advice.

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post #36 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

For future reference, all you need to do to defuncticate a thread is post to it, unless it was locked.

Ah, OK. I've had no luck getting responses to such threads in the past. My apologies to council if the old thread was dedefuncticatable.

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post #37 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Regarding the different crossover options, I have experimented with both 60 Hz and 80 Hz (all speakers with the same xover). The differences to me are very subtle, both in listening tests, and using REW measurements. So I have settled for 80 Hz all around.

Everyone who has tried turning mid-range comp off has immediately turned it back on. If you experiment, listen particularly to male voices. With comp turned off, I hear a definite decrease in vocal quality, sort of a "tubby" sound.

I haven't experimented with the curve editor. I am quite pleased with the current calibration results, and am not sure my ears are trained well enough for me to trust curve editor tweaking. What I have learned over the past year is the importance of 1) careful speaker placement, and 2) a consistent, repeatable process for placing the microphone during the calibration process.

Having admired pictures of your setup, I would be interested in hearing your feedback regarding improvements you have seen with XT32 and the Pro Kit.

I am primarily a classical music listener to SACD and Blu-ray Mch. I use Martin Logan electrostat hybrids all around. I go to a lot of live concerts. I have experimented with "midrange compensation" with one fellow concert-going listener. We distinctly prefer the midrange dip OFF. Leaving it on subtracts some natural air and ambience from the sound in our view.

With XT, I had increased all sub x-overs to 80 Hz, except my center which Audyssey had pegged at 100 Hz. With XT/32, all x-overs were set lower by Audyssey at 40 - 60 Hz. I have left them at those lower settings, since the sub channel no longer has higher filter resolution. I now hear slightly less artificial bass localization that way on my single JL Fathom f113 sub, although it is possible XT/32's other advantages may be significant in causing this.

So, my calibration is to just default to what Audyssey says except for the elimination of "midrange compensation". I use 11 mike calibration positions around a 3 seat sofa in a large room, including 3 extra center-weighted positions around the center cushion sweet spot. I have never been happier with my sound. It compares very favorably to the very best and costliest Mch systems I have heard and it greatly exceeds any purist stereo at any price in terms of reproducing the sound of a live concert. My processor is an Integra 80.2. My player is an Oppo 83.
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post #38 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 07:31 AM
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I have a Pro Kit that I only used twice for an Integra DTC-9.8. I now have a Pioneer Elite SC-37 and will probably not need the Pro kit again. Please contact me if you are interested in purchasing my Pro kit.

Thanks,

Mike
Wilmington, NC

*** Update ***

Pro Kit has beem sold.
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post #39 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 07:48 AM
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I got hooked on what the Pro Kit added to my system and, as long as there are Pro-ready pre/pros available, I will own one.

Jeff


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post #40 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobkbusch View Post

Anybody care to PM me with a reliable source for the kit?...

I had contacted several local dealers (who are listed on the Audyssey website) but none had a kit in stock and none could even quote me a price! Luke clarified that the going price for non-professionals is $550. I didn't ask if he'd actually sell me one, as I happened to find a nearly-new kit for sale at significant savings. The seller simply contacted Luke and had him transfer the kit registration to me. Note that for kits that are several years old, there is a FW update charge so get the kit# and check with Luke first before buying used.

Also, note that any license ($150) that has been keyed (used on) a unit is forever attached to that unit and is not transferable. On the other hand, buying a used piece of gear that has a license keyed to it means you don't have to buy another license for that unit.

Well whaddya know, someone just posted a used kit for sale right on the thread.

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post #41 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Here is my latest Audyssey Pro certificate for everyone's viewing pleasure...

Very nice. Dang, those subs are flat to 20!


Please walk me through the steps to posting my cert here on AVS, I am technically challenged.

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post #42 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobkbusch View Post

Anybody care to PM me with a reliable source for the kit? I know I can call Audyssey and ask, but I'd rather go with a recommendation from a member with a good experience from a dealer.

You have a PM.
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post #43 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Here is my latest Audyssey Pro certificate for everyone's viewing pleasure...

Attachment 217310

I need to lower the gains on all my sub outputs in the DCX by a few dBs then re-run Audyssey Pro. Right now Audyssey is setting my sub trim at -12 (the max).

What's weird is that Audyssey Pro read my subs as ~80dB during the level-matching screen. I would have expected Audyssey to set my sub trim to -5 dB or so. Using the old RatShack SPL meter my subs only read 68/69 dB while all my other speakers read 73/74 dB so something is still fishy there. But that's a whole different can of worms.

Counsil, if each sub was measuring approximately 80 dB, then when all subs are driven, the output level would normally increase by about 6 dB, resulting in 86 dB. To get it back down to 75 dB, Audyssey would need to set the trim to -11/12 dB, which is what you are seeing. Each of my subs measured 75 dB, which when combined would have yielded 81 dB. And Audyssey sets my sub trim at -6, which seems to support my theory.

And the RS SPL measures approximately 3 dB low for bass frequencies, so your SPL measurement doesn't seem to be that far off.

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post #44 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 08:58 AM
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post #45 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

...Having admired pictures of your setup, I would be interested in hearing your feedback regarding improvements you have seen with XT32 and the Pro Kit.

You talkin to me?
If you're not confusing me with one of the guys who has a nice a dedicated HT, thnx! For the past 9 months I have been working on improving my acoustically difficult family room HT in terms of SQ. I added curtains, a bigger thicker rug with padding, and replaced every single piece of gear except the att HDDVR.

To make a long story short, over the past month I upgraded from the Denon AVR4310 (XT) to the A100 and added a second Velo DD10 sub. I ran XT32 and it was transformational. It took the SQ to a level I had come to doubt was even obtainable in my room as is (I had been seriously thinking about formal acoustic treatments despite the wife's holding her veto pen at the ready). After I ran Pro, the end result was significantly better yet, and I guess I'd describe it much like what Jeff (pepar) and fitzcaraldo have posted here and elsewhere, even more integrated, detailed and polished. But since you want juicy details, let me briefly wax poetic...

Of course, source matters but with well-recorded material, stereo offers a broader, more integrated soundstage with better detail and precise placement of instruments, and yet more ambiance. The impact and dynamics are palpable and thrilling, adding to the realism. For acoustic material, it's almost as though I have the best seat in the house. For studio material, it is not hard to imagine myself sitting right at the control board.

For good MC material, it's all that and more. The integration of all the satellites and subs is seemless. This results in the 3D effect being more pronounced, with an impressive surround bubble and instruments clearly placed at various distances and angles in all planes. Steely Dan Gaucho DVDA is a good example of where considerable thought and attention was put into the recording and production and every detail comes alive. With good film soundtracks, it's more immersive. There's such dynamics throughout the surround bubble, with convincing impact I'd never heard from my surrounds. It used to be that thunder and rain sounded impressively real, but now one drawback is that many other sounds are so realistic and so independent of speakers that they occasionally momentarily jar me out of suspended disbelief. ("Is that someone in the kitchen? Was that something outside?")

Dang, I'm an Audyssey fanboy!

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post #46 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 12:44 PM
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I am using my own midbass comp for the surrounds and center. I tune it for the treble xover in each case using the editor in the pro kit and the published xover specs for speaker.

Much better to leave off the mid comp with my Vantages which have no treble xover.
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post #47 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Counsil, if each sub was measuring approximately 80 dB, then when all subs are driven, the output level would normally increase by about 6 dB, resulting in 86 dB. To get it back down to 75 dB, Audyssey would need to set the trim to -11/12 dB, which is what you are seeing. Each of my subs measured 75 dB, which when combined would have yielded 81 dB. And Audyssey sets my sub trim at -6, which seems to support my theory.

And the RS SPL measures approximately 3 dB low for bass frequencies, so your SPL measurement doesn't seem to be that far off.

I am only using one sub out from my Denon. Therefore my Denon *thinks* there is only one sub.

I use a Behringer DCX2496 to individually time-align and level-match my subs. It can individually time-align and level-match up to 6 subs!

I do not use any of the EQ features of the DCX because I don't want any double EQ'ing going on.

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post #48 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Ah, OK. I've had no luck getting responses to such threads in the past. My apologies to council if the old thread was dedefuncticatable.

I'm glad you started this thread. When I tried to start another Audyssey Pro thread Chris K. was still heavily involved in the Audyssey thread which I believe kept Pro users from *leaving* that thread.

Now that Chris K. will no longer be participating in the Audyssey thread I bet this thread with thrive. I haven't been reading the Audyssey thread because it's been not of interest to me for quite some time.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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post #49 of 5642 Old 07-11-2011, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Please walk me through the steps to posting my cert here on AVS, I am technically challenged.

First off, you need a way to print your certificate to pdf. I use CutePDF. You can download it from here...

http://www.cutepdf.com/download/CuteWriter.exe

But first you need to download and install the GPL GhostScript from here...

http://www.cutepdf.com/download/converter.exe

After you install both of them you can print anything directly to a pdf file by selecting CutePDF as your printer.

After printing your certificate to CutePDF (thus creating a pdf file) you can upload it here by clicking on the paperclip.

I hope this helps.

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post #50 of 5642 Old 07-12-2011, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I had contacted several local dealers (who are listed on the Audyssey website) but none had a kit in stock and none could even quote me a price! Therefore I'm pretty sure Luke would've sold directly to me and the price he quoted direct from Audyssey is $550.

When I called them he seemed to be quite clear that they wouldn't handle the sales paperwork. After I called the closest US places he referred me to a fellow in eastern MA who cheerfully took my order at the price I said I got from Audyssey -- he didn't know the current retail price. The kit was drop shipped directly from Audyssey.


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post #51 of 5642 Old 07-12-2011, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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^Oh, I'll edit my post.

And thnx for the cutepdf stuff! I'm working on getting some graphs up. I really should get more "day job" work done...

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #52 of 5642 Old 07-13-2011, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Hi mj, here's an interesting tidbit. When I first ran autosetup on the A100 ( without Pro) I set both Velodyne DD10 subs vol to 11/99, which was apparently fine and sounded good. When I ran Pro the first time, I left them at that level as it appeared each just made it under the max level per the sub level test screen. It sounded good but the Pro Combined Subs curve on the Certificate looked real goofy with significant peaks and dips. I called Luke at Audyssey CS and he advised me that because the combined sub ch trim was now -10.5, that limited what Audyssey could do to smooth the overall FR. He also told me to ignore the phase warning on the subs, which are positioned half way down the front and back walls. I turned them each down to 8 and it completely smoothed the subs curve and trim is now at -6. And it sounds quite good indeed. It makes sense but seems confusing and contradictory to the old "if the channel trim's not at +/-12, it's OK" adage.

I checked this out with Chris at "Ask Audyssey" and here was his response:

"Sorry.. there is no technical reason that keeping the subwoofer trim to smaller range has any benefit. Unless of course the subwoofer somehow is not linear and performs poorly at higher settings of its volume control (very unlikely). There is certainly no harm in running the calibration again after lowering the subwoofer volume control. Just don't expect any miracles!"

In other words, he completely contradicts what Luke said.

Mark

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post #53 of 5642 Old 07-13-2011, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark, I have no clue. As I posted, it seemed contradictory to what we'd been told by Chris.

I explained the situation in detail to Luke, he looked at my certificate, he told me what to do and I did it->much smoother sub curve.

BTW that is a very cool HT you have there.

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post #54 of 5642 Old 07-13-2011, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

...
After printing your certificate to CutePDF (thus creating a pdf file) you can upload it here by clicking on the paperclip...

Everything works except the last step. I have posted many pics etc but these 100KB pdfs won't upload for some reason.

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post #55 of 5642 Old 07-13-2011, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

I checked this out with Chris at "Ask Audyssey" and here was his response:

"Sorry.. there is no technical reason that keeping the subwoofer trim to smaller range has any benefit. Unless of course the subwoofer somehow is not linear and performs poorly at higher settings of its volume control (very unlikely). There is certainly no harm in running the calibration again after lowering the subwoofer volume control. Just don't expect any miracles!"

In other words, he completely contradicts what Luke said.

Mark

Follow up on Ask Audyssey with what Luke said; one of them is wrong.


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post #56 of 5642 Old 07-13-2011, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Follow up on Ask Audyssey with what Luke said; one of them is wrong.

I don't really want to follow up because in my query at Ask Audyssey, I actually quoted what SOM said. My take is that Chris acknowledges that Luke made a mistake.

Having said that, how come SOM got a much smoother curve by following the "incorrect" advice of Luke? Dunno.

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post #57 of 5642 Old 07-13-2011, 08:28 PM
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Look at my Audyssey Pro certificate above. I had a sub trim of -12 (the max) yet my subs were fully equalized.

I call BS

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post #58 of 5642 Old 07-14-2011, 02:06 AM
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I recently purchased the integra dhc 80.1. Is it worth investing in the pro kit. I am bit hesitant since the cost of the pro kit is half of what i paid for the ssp. Any advise!!!!!
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post #59 of 5642 Old 07-14-2011, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rockydj View Post

I recently purchased the integra dhc 80.1. Is it worth investing in the pro kit. I am bit hesitant since the cost of the pro kit is half of what i paid for the ssp. Any advise!!!!!

Let me take a stab at this. If we don't consider the source, my own priority list for audio improvement is as follows:

1. Speakers
2. Acoustic treatment
3. Speaker and Listener placement
4. Good electronic EQ (your Integra 80.1)
5. Even better electronic EQ -- Audyssey Pro kit
6 and worse --- Power amps, cables, interconnects, snake oil, voodoo dolls, etc etc

Within the constraints of your circumstances (WAF, room, whatever), if you've done everything you can for items 1 to 3, I guess you *should* get the pro kit.


Mark

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post #60 of 5642 Old 07-14-2011, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Let me take a stab at this. If we don't consider the source, my own priority list for audio improvement is as follows:

1. Speakers
2. Acoustic treatment
3. Speaker and Listener placement
4. Good electronic EQ (your Integra 80.1)
5. Even better electronic EQ -- Audyssey Pro kit
6 and worse --- Power amps, cables, interconnects, snake oil, voodoo dolls, etc etc

Within the constraints of your circumstances (WAF, room, whatever), if you've done everything you can for items 1 to 3, I guess you *should* get the pro kit.


Mark

I guess I should bite the bullet and order it. I have a earthquake cinenova grande 7 amp. I really don't want to go interconnects, cable and voodoo route. thanks mate.
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