The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 200 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5971 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I remember you saying that ages ago in the Audyssey thread. We have the same speakers but I don't want the MRC dip at all. And M&K and THX would agree with me that none is needed with the S150s. But I respect your personal judgement, in your own room, even though it is the opposite of my own. FWIW my room is well treated too.
Normally, I'd be OK with Chaka Khan biting my ears.

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post #5972 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I agree. I use the curve editor to shape a mild to moderate house curve and smooth the treble rolloff, and I use it without midrange compensation or dynamic EQ. Here are couple of examples:

Mild:

24000Hz +3

Moderate:

24000Hz +2
I just noticed that you were boosting at 24KHz. When I allowed my 15KHz 2dB lift to have whatever effect it would normally have on 20K and above, my ears bled. So I dialed in a 0dB handle at 20KHz.
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post #5973 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Normally, I'd be OK with Chaka Khan biting my ears.

Jeff
Could she get close enough to bite your ears, given her assets?
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post #5974 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I remember you saying that ages ago in the Audyssey thread. We have the same speakers but I don't want the MRC dip at all. And M&K and THX would agree with me that none is needed with the S150s. But I respect your personal judgement, in your own room, even though it is the opposite of my own. FWIW my room is well treated too.
Keith, I am confused. Back when you still had your Onkyo and were using the Pro Kit, were you defeating the MRC? And since upgrading to the Denon and now using the consumer Audyssey calibration, you have reported on a number of occasions that you think the sound has improved over what you were getting with Pro. Even to the point that you have hypothesized that Audyssey has implemented some enhancements without telling anyone. But your current calibration is using the MRC. Can you see how this might be viewed as a contradiction? Or, heaven forbid, could the current calibration sound better because the MRC has been reinstated?
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post #5975 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I agree that getting rid of an arbitrary distortion to the FR is a good thing. My Onkyo defeated the MRC dip when used in Audyssey's 'Music' mode, but the Denon retains it. Of course it isn't correct to say that only Audyssey Pro can bypass these problems (miniDSP 10x10, Behringer FBD etc can do the same) but in this context I take your point.



I'd more or less agree with all of your points there, although of the three only the MRC dip is an issue here. The treble rolloff isn't an issue here - the room is well treated and my hearing at high frequencies is not what it was when I was in my 20s. I find DEQ works well for me, but I always watch movies at -5dB, so DEQ isn't doing much anyway. At more or less Reference levels, no additional bass boost is needed IME but is often added as a preference thing.
Agreed. My reasons for saying only Audyssey Pro can eliminate Audyssey's midrange comp is that Audyssey adds the comp in all the channels, so one would need to have parametric EQ for all channels, tuned to the exact frequency, Q, and level to defeat it. Those exact settings could come with enough trial and error; but, unless the owner is really smart and well equipped, more likely it wouldn't be an exact boost to fill in the exact dip Audyssey puts in, just an approximation.

The treble rolloff shape Audyssey implements doesn't match established research from what I've found, though I do admit that research was more hi-fi and pro sound oriented. Back when I first got interested in audio, I devoured a big book I got from the library that was an authoritative book on sound engineering. It suggested a rolloff starting around 1-2KHz at approximately 1.5 dB/oct. Years later, I pulled out all my old Stereophile issues (probably over a decade's worth) and noted all the positive speaker reviews (I didn't consider the negative reviews, because I wanted to limit my findings to only well designed speakers) where they took an in room spatially averaged response at the listening position and looked at the trends. Of course they each had their own specifics, but they seemed to average a rolloff of 1.25-1.5 dB/oct above 2KHz with a mild bass lift. Unfortunately, Audyssey's curve isn't like that; it starts the rolloff above 4KHz and has a more distinctive, severe shape, so my beef with their chosen rolloff isn't necessarily just with the amount of top octave "air" it rolls off. That's why I say Audyssey's target may arguably be a more authentic average of the way some movie theaters measure in the high frequencies but does not sound quite natural IMO.
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post #5976 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I just noticed that you were boosting at 24KHz. When I allowed my 15KHz 2dB lift to have whatever effect it would normally have on 20K and above, my ears bled. So I dialed in a 0dB handle at 20KHz.
Yeah, I just put a handle at the highest frequency allowed, which gave the smoothest controlled rolloff in the top octave. That might not be ideal for every listener or system, particularly for tweeters that have a resonant peak near or slightly above 20 KHz.

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post #5977 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 01:15 PM
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post #5978 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I had not seen it before.


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post #5979 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Keith, I am confused. Back when you still had your Onkyo and were using the Pro Kit, were you defeating the MRC? And since upgrading to the Denon and now using the consumer Audyssey calibration, you have reported on a number of occasions that you think the sound has improved over what you were getting with Pro. Even to the point that you have hypothesized that Audyssey has implemented some enhancements without telling anyone. But your current calibration is using the MRC. Can you see how this might be viewed as a contradiction? Or, heaven forbid, could the current calibration sound better because the MRC has been reinstated?
There are some misunderstandings in your comments, Jerry.

I used Pro with and without the MRC dip enabled. On movie soundtracks I could never really hear very much difference between them TBH. My objection to the MRC dip is more conceptual. I do not want an arbitrary dip imposed on my expensive speakers at the whim of someone's (mistaken) belief that the BBC designed-in this dip over 50 years ago in order to correct some perceived problem around the frequency region where the crossover of a speaker handles the transition from tweeter to midrange driver unit. For one thing, the BBC never encountered that issue, despite what Audyssey say. The BBC Dip was designed to correct a problem with the driver cone material of the day. Here we are 50 years later, using speakers with totally different drivers, designed with the aid of computers, using components from the 21st century, also designed with the aid of computers. Audyssey has no idea how my speakers have been designed and I prefer to follow their maker's wisdom and experience in designing a speaker that does not require deliberately induced distortion in order to satisfy the preferences of Chris K and his team. (And it is a matter of their subjective preferences: they repeatedly say that the MRC dip "sounds" better or "smoother" or "less harsh". They have offered no supporting measurements to objectively justify their subjective claims AFAIK.)

For the record, I never hypothesised that XT32 has been improved surreptitiously. What I said is that the latest version of XT32 in my Denon X5200 is achieving the same sonic and measured results as I used to get from using Pro. This is true. I have not the faintest idea if this was true for the version of XT32 in my former Onkyo 5509 because I started to use Pro before I had learned how to use REW, so I never measured one against the other. It is quite likely that XT32 has always given the same audible results as Pro, but I can only speak for the XT32 in my Denon vs Pro.

The current calibration (with XT32 alone) does not "sound better" than the former calibration using Pro. It sounds the same. And it measures the same.

This is what Audyssey have to say about MRC, from their own 'Ask Audyssey' site:

Midrange compensation is an intentional dip in the 2 kHz region where the vast majority of tweeter-to-midrange crossovers are. In that region the tweeter is at the low end of its range and the midrange at the high end of its range and the directivity of the speaker goes through major changes. We found that if that region is equalized to flat, the change in direct to reflected ratio that happens because of the directivity variations causes voices to sound harsh (among other things). So, we have this implemented in the Audyssey target curve. With MultEQ Pro you can choose to turn it off, but we don't recommend it. This notion was observed 40 years ago by BBC speaker designers in their studio monitors. They designed their speakers with this "BBC dip" intentionally in the speaker response.

The last two sentences are a figment of Audyssey's imagination, as quick research into the BBC Dip will verify.
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post #5980 of 5992 Old 01-08-2015, 04:09 PM
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post #5981 of 5992 Old 01-19-2015, 12:49 PM
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Hello everyone using Pro version 4.0. Did they resolve any of these known issues? ;

Loading a measurement file, re-calculating filters and saving the results to the AVR results in incorrect subwoofer distance and level settings. (Workaround: always make a note of the default sub distance and trim settings before re-calculating filters, and set the correct values in the AVR after completing the re-calculation.)

On some AVR's, when performing a new Pro calibration, sub distances do not change. (Workaround same as above.)

Adding new measurements to existing measurement files is no longer supported by Audyssey for users with dual subs. Audyssey has confirmed the issue, but has reported that a fix is not currently planned. This is because the fix requires more AVR resources than are currently made available for Audyssey use. Note: this issue does not impact single-sub users.

Loading a measurement file and re-calculating filters may result in a different priority to the crossover recommendations.
Anyone? I plan on getting the AV8802 and running the pro cal on it. Maybe anyone who has an AV7702?

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post #5982 of 5992 Old 01-19-2015, 01:23 PM
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The workarounds for these issues still work.
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post #5983 of 5992 Old 01-19-2015, 04:00 PM
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The workarounds for these issues still work.
LOL. I meant if we still have to do the workarounds, or have they been fixed/resolved in the new Atmos processors. I know one reason for these issues was that there were not enough resources allocated to do some of these things.

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post #5984 of 5992 Old 01-19-2015, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC View Post
LOL. I meant if we still have to do the workarounds, or have they been fixed/resolved in the new Atmos processors. I know one reason for these issues was that there were not enough resources allocated to do some of these things.
There is no evidence that Audyssey has been working on any of the issues, or ever plan to. I think they are in a mode of doing as little as possible to just keep the Pro software running as new AVR hardware becomes available.
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post #5985 of 5992 Old 01-30-2015, 10:22 PM
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Anyone? I plan on getting the AV8802 and running the pro cal on it. Maybe anyone who has an AV7702?
I just ran v4 on my AV7702. Currently a single sub in this system.
I'll confirm when I get back in town but I don't recall issues related to sub distances and levels.
Only had a brief listen with my test films & music. I thought the results were very good.
Overall noticeably better dynamics, higher level of transparency and localization than the Integra DHC80.3 it replaced.
I still despise the fact that you can't assign a mode to a specific signal by input. Dumb, dumb, dumb!!
Also miss PLIIX. Again only a quick listen but IMHO DSU is not a suitable replacement
Note: I only use/used PLIIX for 5.1 content or movies that are native multichannel but are only available in 2-channel formats. For mono classics and music I listen in the native modes.

These issues were present when I calibrated my Wisdom's using their SC-1 and a modified version of the software.

It been so long I don't remember Is/was the Integra DHC80.3 affected by these issues as well?

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post #5986 of 5992 Old 01-30-2015, 11:17 PM
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I just ran v4 on my AV7702. Currently a single sub in this system.
I'll confirm when I get back in town but I don't recall issues related to sub distances and levels.
The issues come into play with two subs.
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post #5987 of 5992 Old 01-30-2015, 11:18 PM
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The issues come into play with two subs.
Hum the Wisdom system only has a single sub.
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post #5988 of 5992 Old 01-30-2015, 11:21 PM
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Hum the Wisdom system only has a single sub.
And XT32?
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post #5989 of 5992 Old Yesterday, 07:42 AM
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And XT32?
At the time XT
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post #5990 of 5992 Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
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At the time XT
Sub distances and levels flakiness, and not being able to add more measurements to a saved AMD file only came with XT32.
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post #5991 of 5992 Old Yesterday, 09:29 PM
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Any XT64 in sight? ...Monsieur Jeff.
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Any XT64 in sight? ...Monsieur Jeff.
Don't think so. They seem to have squeezed everything out of the resources that the AVR manufacturers allotted them.

That said, I honestly don't know if they are working on a next gen room correction system that does not have to use a DSP onboard the receiver/pre-pro.
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