The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 201 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6001 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 01:12 PM
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It sounds good was just wondering why I can't change it.


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post #6002 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by d4g View Post
It sounds good was just wondering why I can't change it.


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Most AVRs have a limit on the difference between speaker distances (delay times) so that if one of your speakers measures about 2m, then you will be limited to a maximum distance of approx. 8m for the furthest, giving a difference of 6m. This is the case with my Denon 4520, so I would expect the Marantz to be similar.
Is this the case with your setup?
And Pro may be able to measure the actual distance, but not be able to fully set it.
Regards, Mike.
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post #6003 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 01:44 PM
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Yep sounds exactly as my setup have one speaker at 1.76 and the sub dist is 7.76 but Audyssey pro is 8.76


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post #6004 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 01:44 PM
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So it looks like I need to have a greater distance with that one speaker.


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post #6005 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by d4g View Post
Yep sounds exactly as my setup have one speaker at 1.76 and the sub dist is 7.76 but Audyssey pro is 8.76


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One sub or two?

Using line in / LFE in?

Have all onboard processing in the sub defeated/bypassed?

What are the physical distances of your speakers including your sub(s)?
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post #6006 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 02:53 PM
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One sub lfe in XLR sub 15 paradigm studio line

F C R approx 3.6m sub dist approx 4.6m

All proceeding in sub off except I did the onl adjust before Audyssey rest as normal


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post #6007 of 6023 Old 02-08-2015, 02:53 PM
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Sub is facing wall so I guess the delay make it sound further.


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post #6008 of 6023 Old 02-09-2015, 10:16 AM
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Sub is facing wall so I guess the delay make it sound further.
Not with sub frequencies.

If it sounds good, I'd forget it.
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post #6009 of 6023 Old 02-20-2015, 04:51 PM
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Did anybody know where i can get a promo code for receive pro license ?
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post #6010 of 6023 Old 02-21-2015, 06:56 AM
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Slowly making my way through the thread. Building a couple of subs, only previously had one. What exactly are the issues related to two subs with the pro kit? I have an Onkyo 5010 btw.
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post #6011 of 6023 Old 02-21-2015, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markymiles View Post
Slowly making my way through the thread. Building a couple of subs, only previously had one. What exactly are the issues related to two subs with the pro kit? I have an Onkyo 5010 btw.
It is an obscure issue that should normally not affect you. If you run a calibration, save the measurements, and then later load the measurements and attempt to add additional measurement points, Pro will set the distance and trims for both subs to the same values. The simple work-around is to make note of the sub distances and trims before attempting to add additional measurements, and then restoring the proper values manually. Of course, adding measurements to an existing calibration is in itself something that you would not do very often, if ever.

In other words, not a big cause for concern.
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post #6012 of 6023 Old 02-21-2015, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
It is an obscure issue that should normally not affect you. If you run a calibration, save the measurements, and then later load the measurements and attempt to add additional measurement points, Pro will set the distance and trims for both subs to the same values. The simple work-around is to make note of the sub distances and trims before attempting to add additional measurements, and then restoring the proper values manually. Of course, adding measurements to an existing calibration is in itself something that you would not do very often, if ever.

In other words, not a big cause for concern.
Ah ok, I'll make note should I ever decide to expand on a set of measurements then. Cheers
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post #6013 of 6023 Old 02-21-2015, 09:16 AM
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Did anybody know where i can get a promo code for receive pro license ?
I have never heard anything about license promo codes.
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post #6014 of 6023 Old 02-27-2015, 09:23 AM
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measurements

The following is the measurements excerpt from my upcoming evaluation of the Marantz AV7702:

The AV7702 includes Audyssey XT32 audio calibration, and it is also Audyssey Pro calibration capable. I began the calibration procedure by running a simple XT32 calibration, positioning the mic included with the AV7702 on a tripod at the ear height of 3 listening positions. Audyssey, as usual, did a good job with speaker distance calculations; and it also correctly identified a speaker that was wired out of phase. It also had me adjust the individual level of the subwoofers, making level matching between the subs easy. XT32 identified the front stage as all large speakers, which is not optimal for these speakers. While in theory they can reproduce bass down to around 30 Hz in room, the speakers are not designed nor able to handle the bass dynamics of movies or demanding music.

I used REW software and my Crossland Labs calibrated measurement microphone at the same 3 positions used during the XT32 setup, to measure the spatially averaged frequency response of each speaker with XT32 equalization bypassed and then with XT32 EQ set to reference, which is the recommended setting for normal use. Image 1 shows the measured response of the entire system with the XT32 settings but with EQ bypassed. The results are shown with 1/3 octave smoothing for clarity, and the LFE channel was measured at a -10 dB relative level for correct behavior with multichannel PCM signals. Dynamic EQ and Volume were disabled, as was loudness management.

We can see the level matching is not particularly good, with about a 5 dB variation among the channels. The front stage, as mentioned previously, has low level bass extension to around 30 Hz, but the center speaker in particular had audible distortion playing the bass portion of the test sweeps. The subwoofers show reasonably good extension but with a significant suckout from 50-60 Hz. The overall response trend is very good for an unequalized system, however, showing a slight midrange prominence in some channels but a fairly well behaved high frequency rolloff which is desirable in listening position measurements. However, mainly because of the suckout, the average subwoofer levels were lower than ideal. The 2 surround channels share the suckout since they were crossed over to the subs at 100 Hz by XT32.

The average of all speakers over all positions is shown in image 2.

It shows good performance overall for an unequalized in room response, but with a slight lower midrange prominence and somewhat weak bass. The HF rolloff beginning just above 2 KHz is fairly close to the ideal in room rolloff of 1.5-2 dB/oct above 1.5-2 KHz, but the ideal in room response should also feature a gently elevated bass of 3-6 dB below around 200 Hz.

The next round of measurements shown in image 3 were made with XT32 set to reference EQ, again with the calibrated microphone at the same positions used in the XT32 setup.

The level matching is better with the exception of the left surround, which measured a few dB higher than the other speakers. The subwoofer response is improved, though there is now a slight peak just above 40 Hz.

The average of all channels at all positions is shown in image 4.

It's interesting to note that, while the slight jogs of the unequalized response have been smoothed, the overall response still shows some problems. For instance, the bass range, instead of having the desired gentle lift below 200 Hz, instead shows a slight depression. There is a depression around 2 KHz, and above that the lower treble is a bit higher than ideal and the upper treble is rolled off too steeply.

I then ran the Audyssey Pro calibration, which requires the Audyssey Pro kit and license, neither of which is inexpensive, unfortunately. The Pro calibration allows more flexibility than XT32, allowing mild curve shaping. In addition, the Pro microphone is a higher grade and individually calibrated, and bass management is handled better and with more options.

As is my normal practice, I used the curve shaping feature to get the responses closer to an ideal in room response of a gently elevated bass and controlled HF rolloff. Also, not unusually for me, I was not entirely happy with the results from my first Pro attempt, so I made some modifications to the curve editor and channel levels until I was happy with the results. The response after the tweaked Pro calibration, again taken with my calibrated mic at the same positions as the Pro mic, is shown in image 5.

The level matching is very good, although both surround speakers are elevated by about 1 dB. The subwoofer response no longer shows the strange peak just above 40 Hz, though understandably the suckout from 50-60 Hz is not completely filled in. This is actually a good thing, because trying to completely fill in bass range suckouts often leads to more problems than it's worth. The dip at 2 KHz and peak just above is replaced with a nicely shaped, smooth HF rolloff.

The average of all speakers at all positions is shown in image 6.

The response shape is excellent, with a 3-6 dB lift at the low end and a 2 dB/octave rolloff from 1850 Hz to 11 Khz, increasing slightly above 11 Khz.

The Audyssey Pro calibration certificate is shown in image 7.
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ISF/THX calibrator with Jeti 1211 reference spectro
Latest reviews:UN85HU8550, LG 55EC9300, Marantz AV7702

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Last edited by Chad B; 02-27-2015 at 09:43 AM.
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post #6015 of 6023 Old 02-27-2015, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
The following is the measurements excerpt from my upcoming evaluation of the Marantz AV7702:

The AV7702 includes Audyssey XT32 audio calibration, and it is also Audyssey Pro calibration capable. I began the calibration procedure by running a simple XT32 calibration, positioning the mic included with the AV7702 on a tripod at the ear height of 3 listening positions. Audyssey, as usual, did a good job with speaker distance calculations; and it also correctly identified a speaker that was wired out of phase. It also had me adjust the individual level of the subwoofers, making level matching between the subs easy. XT32 identified the front stage as all large speakers, which is not optimal for these speakers. While in theory they can reproduce bass down to around 30 Hz in room, the speakers are not designed nor able to handle the bass dynamics of movies or demanding music.

I used REW software and my Crossland Labs calibrated measurement microphone at the same 3 positions used during the XT32 setup, to measure the spatially averaged frequency response of each speaker with XT32 equalization bypassed and then with XT32 EQ set to reference, which is the recommended setting for normal use. Image 1 shows the measured response of the entire system with the XT32 settings but with EQ bypassed. The results are shown with 1/3 octave smoothing for clarity, and the LFE channel was measured at a -10 dB relative level for correct behavior with multichannel PCM signals. Dynamic EQ and Volume were disabled, as was loudness management.

We can see the level matching is not particularly good, with about a 5 dB variation among the channels. The front stage, as mentioned previously, has low level bass extension to around 30 Hz, but the center speaker in particular had audible distortion playing the bass portion of the test sweeps. The subwoofers show reasonably good extension but with a significant suckout from 50-60 Hz. The overall response trend is very good for an unequalized system, however, showing a slight midrange prominence in some channels but a fairly well behaved high frequency rolloff which is desirable in listening position measurements. However, mainly because of the suckout, the average subwoofer levels were lower than ideal. The 2 surround channels share the suckout since they were crossed over to the subs at 100 Hz by XT32.

The average of all speakers over all positions is shown in image 2.

It shows good performance overall for an unequalized in room response, but with a slight lower midrange prominence and somewhat weak bass. The HF rolloff beginning just above 2 KHz is fairly close to the ideal in room rolloff of 1.5-2 dB/oct above 1.5-2 KHz, but the ideal in room response should also feature a gently elevated bass of 3-6 dB below around 200 Hz.

The next round of measurements shown in image 3 were made with XT32 set to reference EQ, again with the calibrated microphone at the same positions used in the XT32 setup.

The level matching is better with the exception of the left surround, which measured a few dB higher than the other speakers. The subwoofer response is improved, though there is now a slight peak just above 40 Hz.

The average of all channels at all positions is shown in image 4.

It's interesting to note that, while the slight jogs of the unequalized response have been smoothed, the overall response still shows some problems. For instance, the bass range, instead of having the desired gentle lift below 200 Hz, instead shows a slight depression. There is a depression around 2 KHz, and above that the lower treble is a bit higher than ideal and the upper treble is rolled off too steeply.

I then ran the Audyssey Pro calibration, which requires the Audyssey Pro kit and license, neither of which is inexpensive, unfortunately. The Pro calibration allows more flexibility than XT32, allowing mild curve shaping. In addition, the Pro microphone is a higher grade and individually calibrated, and bass management is handled better and with more options.

The response after Pro calibration, again taken with my calibrated mic at the same positions as the Pro mic, is shown in image 5. As is my normal practice, I used the curve shaping feature to get the responses closer to an ideal in room response of a gently elevated bass and controlled HF rolloff.


The level matching is very good, although both surround speakers are elevated by about 1 dB. The subwoofer response no longer shows the strange peak just above 40 Hz, though understandably the suckout from 50-60 Hz is not completely filled in. This is actually a good thing, because trying to completely fill in bass range suckouts often leads to more problems than it's worth. The dip at 2 KHz and peak just above is replaced with a nicely shaped, smooth HF rolloff.

The average of all speakers at all positions is shown in image 6.

The response shape is excellent, with a 3-6 dB lift at the low end and a 2 dB/octave rolloff from 1850 Hz to 11 Khz, increasing slightly above 11 Khz.

The Audyssey Pro calibration certificate is shown in image 7.
Two issues with your measurements, from my perspective. 1/3 smoothing is way too aggressive, and covers up what might be issues that need to be addressed. And REW averages are not very useful. You sit in one spot, the MLP, and non-averaged measurements for the MLP shows what YOU hear, which is important.

So, while I don't see any questions in your post, it would be more interesting if you shared some measurements that are not averaged, and are not over-smoothed. Low frequency measurements 15-300Hz should be un-smoothed, while full range measurements up to 20KHz should have no higher than 1/12 smoothing.

Which shows the best information?





Edit: What have you done to identify and correct the dip at ~50Hz?

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post #6016 of 6023 Old 02-27-2015, 09:56 AM
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I still have all the original non averaged measurements, so I could remake all the graphs. I may do that, though I have some time constraints to deal with. I had originally used the variable smoothing option of REW, which I believe is unsmoothed in the bass and about 1/6 oct smoothing in the upper range, but I upped it to 1/3 to make the lines easier to distinguish.

Haven't done anything for the 50 Hz dip because there are no room treatments at my disposal and the subwoofer positions are not flexible. Moving them will either interfere with the functionality of the room, block the main speakers, or be too far away for the cables to reach.

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post #6017 of 6023 Old 02-27-2015, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I still have all the original non averaged measurements, so I could remake all the graphs. I may do that, though I have some time constraints to deal with. I had originally used the variable smoothing option of REW, which I believe is unsmoothed in the bass and about 1/6 oct smoothing in the upper range, but I upped it to 1/3 to make the lines easier to distinguish.

Haven't done anything for the 50 Hz dip because there are no room treatments at my disposal and the subwoofer positions are not flexible. Moving them will either interfere with the functionality of the room, block the main speakers, or be too far away for the cables to reach.
Too bad--re-positioning the subs is the most likely solution to the dip, which is in a particularly audible part of the frequency range. Do you have one sub or multiple subs? If only one, is there a spot for another?
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post #6018 of 6023 Old 02-27-2015, 10:41 AM
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Yes, I agree. 2 subs.

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post #6019 of 6023 Old 02-27-2015, 10:59 AM
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post #6020 of 6023 Old 02-28-2015, 08:01 AM
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Thank you Chad B for sharing your experiences here with us. I found it very interesting to read and you also wrote clearly what the differences between Pro and standard are.
I also agree to AustinJerry's comments. But this comparison and the description of what you did to achieve the best sound - under the circumstances of your environment - was very interesting for me.
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post #6021 of 6023 Old 02-28-2015, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
Yes, I agree. 2 subs.
Can you find room for a third? It doesn't have to be huge as all it will be doing is filling in for the other two. It would be a pity to let that big dip go unfixed, especially at such an important part of the frequency response.
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post #6022 of 6023 Old 02-28-2015, 08:34 AM
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There may be some room in the rear half of the room. I like your suggestion of it not having to be as big because a third one of the same size might not go over too well.

By the way, this isn't my system. I posted the measurements here for informational purposes so we could see how well Audyssey XT32 and Pro do in comparison to each other.


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Thanks for that . Useful to show at least what is possible using the target curve editor.

Like others on here I'm not sure I could hear much difference between the actual calibration side of things. But shaping your own curve and being able to reload measurements was worth buying the kit for.
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