The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 09:19 AM
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Another thing you could with OM is for fixed OM mike position(s), see how the response differs for different Audyssey mike positions.

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post #632 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 09:24 AM
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Is audiogon the best place to look for used Pro kits or do you guys know of other places to look?

Is it possible to get a deal on a new Pro kit from an online retailer like AVS (or other websites that are as easy to work with as AVS)?

Thanks.
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post #633 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Another thing you could with OM is for fixed OM mike position(s), see how the response differs for different Audyssey mike positions.

Someone has waaaay too much time on their hands.

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post #634 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Is audiogon the best place to look for used Pro kits or do you guys know of other places to look?..

I have never been able to locate one from an online site. Local Audyssey dealers are listed on the website. I called several, no one had a kit in stock, no one knew the price and no one wanted to sell one used. If unavailable locally, Luke will sell you one for $550. Here's a used kit I found several pages into a bing search.

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post #635 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Local Audyssey dealers are listed on the website. I called several, no one had a kit in stock, noone knew the price and noone wanted to sell one used. If unavailable, Luke will sell you one for $550. Here's a used kit I found several pages into a bing search.

License is forever and costs ~ 150 from Audyssey.
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post #636 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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^To add to Jim's clarification, BCJ, the license itself is software and is sold separately from the kit, directly from Audyssey.

Just call Luke @ Audyssey for the license. He'll welcome you, patiently answer your questions, and register your kit to you so you'll have access to the Pro Installers website. He's a very nice guy.

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post #637 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Resistance is futile.

As you've upgraded your speakers and just purchased a very fine recent model XT32 equipped Integra, Pro is a reasonable purchase which will polish your SQ nicely. I spent about $10K in similar upgrades and have similar limitations irt room tx, so Pro was well worth it to me. Not an oz of regret.

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post #638 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 12:37 PM
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post #639 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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True. I have been assimilated and calibrated so can't help myself.

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post #640 of 5637 Old 11-24-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I have never been able to locate one from an online site. Local Audyssey dealers are listed on the website. I called several, no one had a kit in stock, no one knew the price and no one wanted to sell one used.

I had no real problem finding a authorized vendor online that sells the Audyssey Pro installer kits. Granted you won't find a lot of them, and probably even less of them that even list the kit. But I did a A/V custom installer that showed it as being available from him online at it's full MSRP selling price. I went ahead and ordered it through his website, and he had it drop shipped direct from Audyssey right to me. Overall I was very pleased with the selling dealer and entire order process. It was shipped via Fed-Ex, and the dealer even emailed me after it arrive to confirm that I actually received it.
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post #641 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 03:31 PM
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Is the crossover recommendation different when using Audyssey Pro because of how Audyssey implements the filters for whichever crossover is selected?


Example:

In the normal Audyssey thread (and pretty much most audio threads on these forums), people will post something like "After running Audyssey and/or REW, the lowest crossover point in my room is 40Hz (example)" and most people will ask "Do you have a capable subwoofer" and if the answer is yes the normal recommendation is to raise the crossover (even on very capable towers) to at least 80Hz to give said speakers more headroom by not having to play as low and relinquishing those duties to the subwoofer(s).

However, as I have noticed in this thread, Audyssey Pro is providing an order of selections for crossovers, with many starting at "Full" and then "40Hz" and then "60Hz" (rough estimations/averages) and the consensus it seems is to stick as close to the first recommendation as possible (I read to try not to go past the third recommendation). This seems like it would often lead people to set their towers under 80Hz, which many people would be advised against doing under normal circumstances (i.e. - capable subwoofer(s), no extra amps/power for the towers, etc) in most other threads (and by most of the common posters in this thread no less) except when Audyssey Pro is being used. What gives?


Can I be educated on this matter some more?
Thanks guys.
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post #642 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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^OK. To clarify, only Pro rates xovers in order of goodness for the splice of sub to satellite. Absent Pro, Audyssey doesn't select a xover at all. It simply reports the F3 to the AVR. The AVR selects Large if the F3 is say, below 40 ( I believe that's the value used in most models). Of course the Audyssey recommendation is to reset it to small no matter what to allow proper bass management. Now if F3 is higher, say 58Hz, the AVR selects the next highest xover available, which would be 60. This is so the speaker does not get overdriven trying to produce low freqs it isn't capable of. There is more to the standard recommendation of raising a crossover to 80 than to offload work to the sub. That Audyssey-specific reason is that prior to XT32, there was an advantage to keeping more freqs in the sub channel where there was much more corection power due to the higher # of filters there. You may also find this post helpful.

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post #643 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^OK. To clarify, only Pro rates xovers in order of goodness for the splice of sub to satellite. Absent Pro, Audyssey doesn't select a xover at all. It simply reports the F3 to the AVR. The AVR selects Large if the F3 is say, below 40 ( I believe that's the value used in most models). Of course the Audyssey recommendation is to reset it to small no matter what to allow proper bass management. Now if F3 is higher, say 58Hz, the AVR selects the next highest xover available, which would be 60. This is so the speaker does not get overdriven trying to produce low freqs it isn't capable of.

This part I already knew....I was merely keeping my above post simple so forgive me if it seemed like I was making the n00b mistake of blaming Audyssey for setting the crossovers, etc. I know Pro is the only software that rates the crossovers by order and I know how crossover selection works in non-Pro iterations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

You may also find this post helpful.

This link answered the question swirling in my head (why most people advocate raising the crossover to 80Hz on the towers but Pro owners advocate using lower frequency crossovers if they are being rated 1st, 2nd, 3rd by Audyssey).


Thanks.
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post #644 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

This part I already knew....I was merely keeping my above post simple so forgive me if it seemed like I was making the n00b mistake of blaming Audyssey for setting the crossovers, etc. I know Pro is the only software that rates the crossovers by order and I know how crossover selection works in non-Pro iterations.




This link answered the question swirling in my head (why most people advocate raising the crossover to 80Hz on the towers but Pro owners advocate using lower frequency crossovers if they are being rated 1st, 2nd, 3rd by Audyssey).


Thanks.


With XT32 here now, I can't bring myself to do it My XOs were set at 50Hz for the fronts and 70Hz for the rest when I did the XT32 calibration. Even though there's no Audyssey-specific reason to change them with XT32, I still can't get past the benefits to the speakers and the amps that come from raising them to 80Hz. Of course, when I get Pro, I will follow the general consensus on here.


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post #645 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 07:27 PM
 
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The main reasons for a given crossover frequency (often 80hz but not always) is room acoustics, speaker/sub capabilities and dynamics.

Bass response is different in your room depending on the placement of the speaker/sub producing the bass. if your speakers are large or have too low of a crossover you will get a different bass response in your room depending on which speaker(s) and/or sub the bass is originating. Since the best place to produce low frequencies is not the same place as higher frequencies our speakers and sub need to be placed independently and the crossover should be set to take advantage of this. That way all the low frequencies will be reproduced from the sub(s) so we maintain that consistent bass response. Most rooms this will be between 80-100hz. Research SBIR (speaker boundary interference response) and room modes for speaker/sub placement and acoustic treatment strategy.

Dynamics, if a speaker is not being pushed to its frequency limit it will play louder and cleaner. When a speaker is pushed to its frequency limit it will have more distortion. A crossover is not a cut-off point and with a 50 hz crossover a speaker will receive frequencies down into the 20hz range which few speakers are capable of handling at any volume. So don't set the crossover to the low frequency limit of your speaker or its -3db point.

The only time we should set the crossover based on a speaker's low frequency capability is when the speaker is not very capable, such as a small speaker. Then a higher crossover would be needed to blend the speaker with the sub.
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post #646 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

The main reasons for a given crossover frequency (often 80hz but not always) is room acoustics, speaker/sub capabilities and dynamics.

Bass response is different in your room depending on the placement of the speaker/sub producing the bass. if your speakers are large or have too low of a crossover you will get a different bass response in your room depending on which speaker(s) and/or sub the bass is originating. Since the best place to produce low frequencies is not the same place as higher frequencies our speakers and sub need to be placed independently and the crossover should be set to take advantage of this. That way all the low frequencies will be reproduced from the sub(s) so we maintain that consistent bass response. Most rooms this will be between 80-100hz. Research SBIR (speaker boundary interference response) and room modes for speaker/sub placement and acoustic treatment strategy.

Dynamics, if a speaker is not being pushed to its frequency limit it will play louder and cleaner. When a speaker is pushed to its frequency limit it will have more distortion. A crossover is not a cut-off point and with a 50 hz crossover a speaker will receive frequencies down into the 20hz range which few speakers are capable of handling at any volume. So don't set the crossover to the low frequency limit of your speaker or its -3db point.

The only time we should set the crossover based on a speaker's low frequency capability is when the speaker is not very capable, such as a small speaker. Then a higher crossover would be needed to blend the speaker with the sub.

How does matching phase for all speakers get factored into the xover freq decision if at all?
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post #647 of 5637 Old 11-25-2011, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

With XT32 here now, I can't bring myself to do it My XOs were set at 50Hz for the fronts and 70Hz for the rest when I did the XT32 calibration. Even though there's no Audyssey-specific reason to change them with XT32, I still can't get past the benefits to the speakers and the amps that come from raising them to 80Hz. Of course, when I get Pro, I will follow the general consensus on here.

I agree with you Keith. My receiver set my Fronts (and Center) to 40Hz after running XT 32 yet I still can't bring myself to have them lower than 80Hz.


So where do you guys that use Pro draw the line when picking your crossover points? Say the 3rd option for your main speakers is 60Hz but the first option for the remainder of your speakers (center, surrounds, heights, wides) ranges from as low as 60Hz all the way to 90Hz for the first reported option using Pro......do you guys find the overall sound stage is still balanced with the crossovers varying so widely or is there a noticeable gap when one speaker is handing off bass duty to the subwoofer(s) higher than another speaker? In an example like this, have you found yourself comparing the pros/cons between keeping said crossover gap to stay as low on the Pro pecking order as possible vs. raising the crossover one more notch (say to the fourth recommended option) to keep better balance?

With XT 32, the filters are applied to any frequency above the setting the receiver picks, so one can freely bump up lower reported settings to have all speakers match. With Pro, however, I get the feeling that if the mains play a lot lower than the rest of the speakers (which is normal in a lot of setups), it does not seem like it is always possible to choose matching crossovers for every speaker as you would have to go up to about the 4th, possibly 5th option recommended by Pro to have the mains match the rest of the system in terms of bass management (just a generalized assumption to get the point across).

Sorry if none of what I said made sense. Slap me if you need me to clarify my question to make more sense and I will try better in the morning.
Thanks guys.
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post #648 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 07:51 AM - Thread Starter
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^
I really don't see what the issue is when running XT32 alone without Pro. Again, I know of no inherent disadvantage to raising xovers to 80 with XT32. And there are significant potential advantages to offloading the work to the sub(s). But it's quite easy to do the A/B/A oneself. Keep in mind that one's room and gear, especially the speakers and subs, can make a big difference in the outcome of these sorts of comparisons. Just switch the xovers (takes a few seconds)and carefully listen for all those things you're concerned about. Rinse and repeat as needed, then pick whichever sounds better.

Now with Pro, it's NOT so easy to compare, as the filters are customized to the xover selected and must be reloaded. So far the few reports we have comparing varied xover settings in Pro indicate rather subtle differences to the ears. My speakers are precisely timbre-matched and quite capable. I use a powerful external amp to drive them. There is no downside at all that I can hear with varied xovers, no gaps. Though I do feel kinda funny in that my nice subs are not being used to cover as much as in the past, it sounds way better than it ever has. 80 all around sounds pretty darn good too; some Pro xover comparison reports on this thread: here and here.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #649 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^
I really don't see what the issue is when running XT32 alone without Pro. Again, I know of no inherent disadvantage to raising xovers to 80 with XT32.

Agreed. Mine are set at 80Hz and likely to stay there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

And there are significant potential advantages to offloading the work to the sub(s). But it's quite easy to do the A/B/A oneself. Keep in mind that one's room and gear, especially the speakers and subs, can make a big difference in the outcome of these sorts of comparisons. Just switch the xovers (takes a few seconds)and carefully listen for all those things you're concerned about. Rinse and repeat as needed, then pick whichever sounds better.

I did just that. With the XOs set at 80Hz the bass was just 'better'. Better defined, more clarity, a little tighter. What I'd expect really. I have zero doubt that my SVS sub can handle frequencies below 80Hz better than my other speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Now with Pro, it's NOT so easy to compare, as the filters are customized to the xover selected and must be reloaded. So far the few reports we have comparing varied xover settings in Pro indicate rather subtle differences to the ears. My speakers are precisely timbre-matched and quite capable. I use a powerful external amp to drive them. There is no downside at all that I can hear with varied xovers, no gaps. Though I do feel kinda funny in that my nice subs are not being used to cover as much as in the past, it sounds way better than it ever has. 80 all around sounds pretty darn good too; some Pro xover comparison reports on this thread: here and here.

Thanks for that. I shall soon be embarking on improving my knowledge of Pro for the day when I finally take that plunge...


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post #650 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:27 AM
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Yea, my mind was bogged down by lack of sleep enough last night that I do not think I was being as clear as I could have

I wasn't implying there is an issue with XT 32 (without Pro)....I merely set every speaker to 80Hz and forget it. It keeps all of the speakers balanced and leaves a little more headroom since I do not have external amps.

I suppose what I was inquiring to is that with XT 32 (non-Pro), it is simple to do A/B comparisons between all the different crossover options (since you can freely raise/lower them as long as you do not go lower than the original setting). Whereas with Pro, unless you have a very good amount of time on your hands (and patience), it appeared to me that you have to choose the crossovers and just know it is the best/second best/third best option......but never the fourth best option, right?

And because of this recommended order of choosing the calculated crossovers, I was merely wondering if anyone has ever had complaints/reservations about having a discrepancy between the crossover setting of their mains and the rest of their speakers (in a "usual" setup where the mains are the most capable speakers of course....this does not account for people who might have a third tower speaker as their center, etc) since you cannot just "raise all crossovers to 80Hz" with Pro like lesser iterations of Audyssey.
i.e. - I was wondering if anyone ever took time out of their hands to do A/B comparisons with Pro, and if so what were their findings. Your links (once again) resolve my question for the most part.


Again, just trying to learn as much and hear as much user input as I can for the day I might bring home a Pro kit myself. Thanks!
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post #651 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

...The only time we should set the crossover based on a speaker's low frequency capability is when the speaker is not very capable, such as a small speaker. Then a higher crossover would be needed to blend the speaker with the sub.

Hi Bob. I agree with most of your general points. I think it's safe to assume there's not many folks with small "not very capable" satellites using Pro.

As we are in the midst of a discussion specific to the capability of XT32 vs XT32 with Pro, pleasee allow me to take some issue with your second-to-last statement. I apologize for any redundancy but this is a complex topic. Pro measures the actual in-room response of speakers and sub, just like any MultEQ (Mult EQ, MultEQXT, MultEQXT32) does. And as you know, each speaker's response is dependant not just on its capability but its placement in, and interaction with, the room. Ditto for the sub(s).

But unlike any MultEQ product including XT32, Pro then does calculations comparing the various xovers in order to optimize the splice, i.e., for the smoothest bass response for each speaker in your room. It then ranks the xovers for you in order of goodness. It takes some computing power to do that. It is then up to you to listen and decide what's best to your ear. I can imagine that if ones speakers and amplification are not high-level, flat bass response may well be outweighed if you get clipping as you approach reference levels so even if 80 is not near the top of the pro ranking it may be preferable at reference..

With my Dali Helicon 400 towers, they are OEM rated F3 @ 31.5 Hz and are away from walls and corners. Pro recommends Large, then 40. I have no idea why knowing that there's sub(s) it would recommend Large, but Chris and Luke tell us what we've always heard, reset to SMALL. At 40 it sounds great, even though the Dalis are a little hard to drive at 4 Ohms and 88dB sens (they're only 9' away though). The Emotiva XPA5 (300 WPC RMS into 4 Ohms) handles it as loud as I care to listen with no sweat. If I raise the xover to 80 and have Pro recalculate the filters for 80Hzall around and it sounds almost as good or perhaps the same. I've only done this once, but the two seemed close enough so I'm not sure I could reliably pick them out in a BAB. I reloaded the 40Hz calibration and that's all she wrote.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #652 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:36 AM
 
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How does matching phase for all speakers get factored into the xover freq decision if at all?

It is doesn't factor into deciding the crossover frequency but the phase of the sub needs to match the speakers at the crossover frequency for good integration.
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post #653 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

With my Dali Helicon 400 towers, they are OEM rated F3 @ 31.5 Hz and are away from walls and corners. Pro recommends Large, then 40. I have no idea why knowing that there's sub(s) it would recommend Large, but Chris and Luke tell us what we've always heard, reset to SMALL. At 40 it sounds great, even though the Dalis are a little hard to drive at 4 Ohms and 88dB sens (they're only 9' away though). The Emotiva XPA5 (300 WPC RMS into 4 Ohms) handles it as loud as I care to listen with no sweat. If I raise the xover to 80 and have Pro recalculate the filters for 80Hzall around and it sounds almost as good or perhaps the same. I've only done this once, but the two seemed close enough so I'm not sure I could reliably pick them out in a BAB. I reloaded the 40Hz calibration and that's all she wrote.

This, this right here is what I was wondering about (said A/B comparison). Again, thanks SoM. I really like to learn as much as possible and it's threads like these that get the hamster in my head running.

I do not have external amps but my receiver is very capable (Integra DTR-70.3) and my front LCR's are very forgiving when it comes to power (Paradigm Series 7 Monitor's, sensitivities of 93/94dB, 8ohm) but I still have that mentality of "set and forget at 80Hz". I figure if/when I get Pro, however, I will shed this mentality and put all trust in Audyssey.

It's funny because the one thing I have never, ever been good at judging is where to set my crossovers. The price of Pro would almost pay for itself in my eyes because of it's ability to finally help me settle on the right crossovers. Kind of exciting
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post #654 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:45 AM
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I certainly agree with what SOM says. There has been a lot of discussion regarding how Pro suggests crossover values. Unfortunately, A/B comparisons take about 10 minutes to switch between crossover selections, as we well know. In my system, Pro recommends Large, 40Hz, 80Hz, and then 60 Hz. I have tried three of the settings (not Large), using both listening tests and REW measurements. The REW measurement differences are very subtle, and the listening tests have never resulted in a crossover choice that is obviously "better". Furthermore, there has been no definitive answer to the question, "How much worse is the second or third recommendation, compared with the first recommendation?".

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post #655 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:47 AM
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I figure if/when I get Pro, however, I will shed this mentality and put all trust in Audyssey.

It's funny because the one thing I have never, ever been good at judging is where to set my crossovers. The price of Pro would almost pay for itself in my eyes because of it's ability to finally help me settle on the right crossovers. Kind of exciting

OCD is a pain in the butt, isn't it? And expensive....

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post #656 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:52 AM
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OCD is a pain in the butt, isn't it? And expensive....



I am pretty sure it's settled: I will be ordering a Pro kit (or looking for a used one) this weekend. Anyone have any good leads besdies searching Audiogon?

Thanks guys!
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post #657 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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^ Did you try the link to the used kit I posted here?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #658 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:55 AM
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Furthermore, there has been no definitive answer to the question, "How much worse is the second or third recommendation, compared with the first recommendation?".

So the differences between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd recommendations are subtle at best.....but is there a definitive answer to the question of "How much worse is choosing a 4th or higher recommendation"? Is that considered "dark" territory?
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post #659 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 09:57 AM
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^ Did you try the link to the used kit I posted here?

Yea, it's marked as "Off". I'll do a power Google searching marathon after work tonight. If anyone here comes across a kit for a good price I'd greatly appreciate a PM if possible.

Thanks again.
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post #660 of 5637 Old 11-26-2011, 10:34 AM
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So the differences between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd recommendations are subtle at best.....but is there a definitive answer to the question of "How much worse is choosing a 4th or higher recommendation"? Is that considered "dark" territory?

I don't recall any discussion that claimed that the 4th or higher recommendation was to be avoided. IMO, if it is listed as a choice in Pro, then it should be a viable option.

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