The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 77 - AVS Forum
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post #2281 of 5614 Old 05-02-2012, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If you added a second sub, you would not need to think long and hard as to whether or not it was a good decision.

Jeff

+++1, Jeff is correct, you'll never regret or look back!

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post #2282 of 5614 Old 05-02-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The target curves choices are in the Pro software and are "starting points." Once the calibration is loaded, the receiver/processor controls the Movie/Music options.

Jeff

Been meaning to ask this, and your post reminded me... I have a dip of about 5dB or even slightly more IIRC that runs from about 450 Hz up to just over 1kHz. Is the curve editor intended to help me eliminate such a dip, or is it really just for tweaking the very high end in order to compensate for larger than average rooms?
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post #2283 of 5614 Old 05-02-2012, 09:01 AM
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Keith,

A "dip" that broad should be correctable with the curve editor. Are you seeing this at your MLP with your independent measuring?

I think the editor is generally intended to fine tune a curve to the listener's preferences. I have a 1.5dB shelf at 200Hz (main channels only, "anchored" at 300Hz) and a 1.5dB lift at 20KHz (anchored at 12KHz and 24KHz).

Jeff
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post #2284 of 5614 Old 05-02-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Been meaning to ask this, and your post reminded me... I have a dip of about 5dB or even slightly more IIRC that runs from about 450 Hz up to just over 1kHz. Is the curve editor intended to help me eliminate such a dip, or is it really just for tweaking the very high end in order to compensate for larger than average rooms?

Just an FYI that can make your target curve editing so very, very easy. Enter the curve editor and immediately save a file - even though you have not changed anything. Once you have saved a custom-edited curve, you can open it in a spreadsheet app and edit it that way. (They are CSV files.)

With the graphic editor in MultEQ Pro, using a mouse is a bit imprecise with respect to the frequency of the handle (control point) and the amount of offset. And using a touchpad is, well ... mo' imprecise. In a spreadsheet, existing handles can be changed and new handles can be entered by simply adding lines; column A is the frequency and column B is the offset. Line 1 is the file's location/name.

There are some restrictions with respect to the density of the handles and their magnitude. This is from my experience as I have never read it anywhere. Under 1000Hz, there is a 100Hz min spacing. Above 1000Hz up to 10KHz there is a 1000Hz min spacing. Above 10KHz there is a 2000Hz min spacing. There's probably a restriction under 100Hz, but I have not done enough down there to have bumped into it.

There is a max +/-3dB offset, so your 5dB trough cannot be completely tweaked out.

Below is one of the last iterations for my no longer owned 885.



The curve for my 5508, beyond the "standard" 20Hz and 24KHz points, is:

200 - 1.5
300 - 0 (the "anchor)
12000 - 0
20000 - 1.5
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post #2285 of 5614 Old 05-02-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Thanks to Keith and others for sharing details of their Mic positions.

I was wondering if you still get the option of Music and Movie on the 5509 after the Pro Calibration has been run?

The option is still there but the response stayed the same when I measured
So looks like that feature is lost with pro

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post #2286 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Keith,

A "dip" that broad should be correctable with the curve editor. Are you seeing this at your MLP with your independent measuring?

Yep - OmniMic shows it every time, regardless of my Pro calibration mic position experiments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I think the editor is generally intended to fine tune a curve to the listener's preferences. I have a 1.5dB shelf at 200Hz (main channels only, "anchored" at 300Hz) and a 1.5dB lift at 20KHz (anchored at 12KHz and 24KHz).

Jeff

I'll have a go. IIRC you use the CSV file in Excel to make the changes don't you? I'll have to import a CSV from the Audyssey folder on my laptop and have a look.
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post #2287 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Just an FYI that can make your target curve editing so very, very easy. Enter the curve editor and immediately save a file - even though you have not changed anything. Once you have saved a custom-edited curve, you can open it in a spreadsheet app and edit it that way. (They are CSV files.)

With the graphic editor in MultEQ Pro, using a mouse is a bit imprecise with respect to the frequency of the handle (control point) and the amount of offset. And using a touchpad is, well ... mo' imprecise. In a spreadsheet, existing handles can be changed and new handles can be entered by simply adding lines; column A is the frequency and column B is the offset. Line 1 is the file's location/name.

There are some restrictions with respect to the density of the handles and their magnitude. This is from my experience as I have never read it anywhere. Under 1000Hz, there is a 100Hz min spacing. Above 1000Hz up to 10KHz there is a 1000Hz min spacing. Above 10KHz there is a 2000Hz min spacing. There's probably a restriction under 100Hz, but I have not done enough down there to have bumped into it.

There is a max +/-3dB offset, so your 5dB trough cannot be completely tweaked out.

Below is one of the last iterations for my no longer owned 885.



The curve for my 5508, beyond the "standard" 20Hz and 24KHz points, is:

200 - 1.5
300 - 0 (the "anchor)
12000 - 0
20000 - 1.5


Outstanding post, Jeff! Thanks. I will have a play with it. One of the things I really love about Pro is that it enables me to play around as much as I like knowing I can go back to the last good calibration if I mess things up.
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post #2288 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Keith,

A "dip" that broad should be correctable with the curve editor. Are you seeing this at your MLP with your independent measuring?

I think the editor is generally intended to fine tune a curve to the listener's preferences. I have a 1.5dB shelf at 200Hz (main channels only, "anchored" at 300Hz) and a 1.5dB lift at 20KHz (anchored at 12KHz and 24KHz).

Jeff

Can you explain a little more about the anchors please? Where would the anchors go for the dip from 450 Hz to 1100 Hz? What do you enter into the spreadsheet for the anchor points - ah I see from your screenie that it is 0? If I wanted to even out that dip by the max of 3dB, how would I create the anchor points and would I use one or more correction points? TIA.
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post #2289 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Can you explain a little more about the anchors please? Where would the anchors go for the dip from 450 Hz to 1100 Hz? What do you enter into the spreadsheet for the anchor points - ah I see from your screenie that it is 0? If I wanted to even out that dip by the max of 3dB, how would I create the anchor points and would I use one or more correction points? TIA.

Anchor is my term for a handle/control point that assigns a zero offset, i.e. it "anchors" the target curve to Reference. I use anchors to isolate the offsets that I make. I didn't want my 200Hz boost to affect frequencies above 300Hz, so I anchored 300Hz to the reference curve. Also, I wanted my HF lift to be hinged at 12KHz .. not raise anything below that ... so I anchored 12KHz. I didn't want anymore boost at 24KHz, so it got anchored as well.

With the range you want to lift being somewhat broad, you could try entering a 3dB lift at 800Hz or so and see what it does below 450Hz and above 1100Hz. Or you could anchor those frequencies and lift 800 by 3 and not have to fuss with it.

Jeff
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post #2290 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Anchor is my term for a handle/control point that assigns a zero offset, i.e. it "anchors" the target curve to Reference. I use anchors to isolate the offsets that I make. I didn't want my 200Hz boost to affect frequencies above 300Hz, so I anchored 300Hz to the reference curve. Also, I wanted my HF lift to be hinged at 12KHz .. not raise anything below that ... so I anchored 12KHz. I didn't want anymore boost at 24KHz, so it got anchored as well.

With the range you want to lift being somewhat broad, you could try entering a 3dB lift at 800Hz or so and see what it does below 450Hz and above 1100Hz. Or you could anchor those frequencies and lift 800 by 3 and not have to fuss with it.

Jeff

Gotcha! Thanks, Jeff. Appreciated.
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post #2291 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 08:55 PM
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With all the debate in the other Audyssey thread about HF brightness, large rooms, etc, I'm beginning to wonder if I have an issue with premature roll-off of high frequencies in the main speakers in my large room.

The attached graph shows the LF & RF Audyssey certificates for both my ~5500 and ~1400 cubic foot pro-calibrated rooms. Speakers in the large room are Krell Resolution 3, while speakers in small room are NHT SuperOne. AVR in each room is Denon 4311CI.

Note how much more rapidly the "Before" HF rolls off in my large room compared to the smaller. I've been reading here that the in-room response for good speakers should measure flat from 4kHz to 10kHz, then roll off rapidly above that. My small room fits that characteristic, while my larger room does not. There, I get roll-off beginning as early as 5kHz, which is near the roll-off measured in large concert halls per the same article.

Now for the favor...can folks post their LF and RF Before graphs from their Audyssey certificate (so we're apples to apples) along with your approximate room volume cubic feet so I can determine if I have a speaker problem rather than a room problem? Specifically, does anyone else have an Audyssey Before graph that shows HF roll-off as early as my large room does, or does this look suspicious from your experience?

Thanks in advance!
LL
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post #2292 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 09:03 PM
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I'm a little confused with how the pro mic calculations are stored in the denon a-100.

If you for example select curve 1 in the pro software, what pre-set in denon is that curve 1 stored as?

Is it the Audyssey EQ selection? Or the FLAT selection?

If it's the Audyssey EQ selection, then is the FLAT setting still NOT rolling off the treble then like curve 1 is?

Also, what setting to most of you choose for the 'midrange compensation ' setting in pro software ? ( not sure if it's called that, but it an option where the curv selection is.

Thanks
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post #2293 of 5614 Old 05-03-2012, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

I'm a little confused with how the pro mic calculations are stored in the denon a-100.

If you for example select curve 1 in the pro software, what pre-set in denon is that curve 1 stored as?

Is it the Audyssey EQ selection? Or the FLAT selection?

If it's the Audyssey EQ selection, then is the FLAT setting still NOT rolling off the treble then like curve 1 is?

Also, what setting to most of you choose for the 'midrange compensation ' setting in pro software ? ( not sure if it's called that, but it an option where the curv selection is.

Thanks

The filters you upload into the 4311CI/A-100 from the Pro software will populate in the "Audyssey" curve in the Denon. You will still be able to use the "Audyssey Flat" curve, which as you suggest will not have the same roll-off as the "Audyssey" curve does. You can see this easiest by going into the Parameter Check menu within the receiver and reviewing the crude EQ graphs for both "Audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat". You should see either more HF boost (or less cut) in the flat curve.

I have midrange compensation turned on for my larger room and turned off for my smaller room. Try it both ways and see which you prefer. If the research is to be believed, you "should" prefer leaving it on, but try it both ways to validate.
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post #2294 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

With all the debate in the other Audyssey thread about HF brightness, large rooms, etc, I'm beginning to wonder if I have an issue with premature roll-off of high frequencies in the main speakers in my large room.

The attached graph shows the LF & RF Audyssey certificates for both my ~5500 and ~1400 cubic foot pro-calibrated rooms. Speakers in the large room are Krell Resolution 3, while speakers in small room are NHT SuperOne. AVR in each room is Denon 4311CI.

Note how much more rapidly the "Before" HF rolls off in my large room compared to the smaller. I've been reading here that the in-room response for good speakers should measure flat from 4kHz to 10kHz, then roll off rapidly above that. My small room fits that characteristic, while my larger room does not. There, I get roll-off beginning as early as 5kHz, which is near the roll-off measured in large concert halls per the same article.

Now for the favor...can folks post their LF and RF Before graphs from their Audyssey certificate (so we're apples to apples) along with your approximate room volume cubic feet so I can determine if I have a speaker problem rather than a room problem? Specifically, does anyone else have an Audyssey Before graph that shows HF roll-off as early as my large room does, or does this look suspicious from your experience?

Thanks in advance!

Hi,

I think a lot matters with what's in the room, not just room size. My room is only 1250 cubic feet and I get a high freq roll-off (pre- Audyssey) like your big room. The room is heavily treated with broadband bass traps (DIY) due to the small size and dimensions. The surround/back speakers show very little roll off due to them being much closer to the mic during calibration. I keep midrange compensation off (IIRC, it was designed more for horn-loaded speakers, correct me if I'm wrong). L/R speakers are NHT Classic Fours. Here is my graph report:


Ray

 

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post #2295 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 05:24 AM
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tandy1000rl - You might have posted this somewhere already, but to confirm, you are selecting the small room and large room targets for the respective rooms, right?

Jeff
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post #2296 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 05:27 AM
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Good point Jeff, I forgot about that...

Ray

 

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post #2297 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post


I have midrange compensation turned on for my larger room and turned off for my smaller room. Try it both ways and see which you prefer. If the research is to be believed, you "should" prefer leaving it on, but try it both ways to validate.

When I first got my hands on Pro I snottily assumed that *my* speakers (almost legendary M&K S-150s) didn't need that midrange compensation. I listened to about 20 seconds of something with a female vocal (Chaka Khan, iirc) and immediately redid the calibration with midcomp.

Jeff
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post #2298 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post


The filters you upload into the 4311CI/A-100 from the Pro software will populate in the "Audyssey" curve in the Denon. You will still be able to use the "Audyssey Flat" curve, which as you suggest will not have the same roll-off as the "Audyssey" curve does. You can see this easiest by going into the Parameter Check menu within the receiver and reviewing the crude EQ graphs for both "Audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat". You should see either more HF boost (or less cut) in the flat curve.

I have midrange compensation turned on for my larger room and turned off for my smaller room. Try it both ways and see which you prefer. If the research is to be believed, you "should" prefer leaving it on, but try it both ways to validate.

Awesome info.

Thanks much.

Will test with the midrange setting.

Is this on by default when using just mic that came with denon and not using pro
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post #2299 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


When I first got my hands on Pro I snottily assumed that *my* speakers (almost legendary M&K S-150s) didn't need that midrange compensation. I listened to about 20 seconds of something with a female vocal (Chaka Khan, iirc) and immediately redid the calibration with midcomp.

Jeff

Sweet. Must play with setting now and see!!

Thanks
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post #2300 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

With all the debate in the other Audyssey thread about HF brightness, large rooms, etc, I'm beginning to wonder if I have an issue with premature roll-off of high frequencies in the main speakers in my large room.

The attached graph shows the LF & RF Audyssey certificates for both my ~5500 and ~1400 cubic foot pro-calibrated rooms. Speakers in the large room are Krell Resolution 3, while speakers in small room are NHT SuperOne. AVR in each room is Denon 4311CI.

Note how much more rapidly the "Before" HF rolls off in my large room compared to the smaller. I've been reading here that the in-room response for good speakers should measure flat from 4kHz to 10kHz, then roll off rapidly above that. My small room fits that characteristic, while my larger room does not. There, I get roll-off beginning as early as 5kHz, which is near the roll-off measured in large concert halls per the same article.

Now for the favor...can folks post their LF and RF Before graphs from their Audyssey certificate (so we're apples to apples) along with your approximate room volume cubic feet so I can determine if I have a speaker problem rather than a room problem? Specifically, does anyone else have an Audyssey Before graph that shows HF roll-off as early as my large room does, or does this look suspicious from your experience?

Thanks in advance!

I think the Target Curve #1 is supposed to slope down by 2 dB between 4k and 10k. Not sure about #2, but I think it may be the same. Though my room is larger than 5,000 cu. ft., I prefer to stay with curve #1. Classical music concert hall sound is my subjective reference. But, it all depends on your room, system and tastes.
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post #2301 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

I'm a little confused with how the pro mic calculations are stored in the denon a-100.

If you for example select curve 1 in the pro software, what pre-set in denon is that curve 1 stored as?

Is it the Audyssey EQ selection? Or the FLAT selection?

If it's the Audyssey EQ selection, then is the FLAT setting still NOT rolling off the treble then like curve 1 is?

Also, what setting to most of you choose for the 'midrange compensation ' setting in pro software ? ( not sure if it's called that, but it an option where the curv selection is.

Thanks

My research for a friend with a Denon indicates that flat is the Audyssy Target curve without any HF roll off. If midrange compensation has been selected, that will still be there even in flat. That can only be removed in Pro.

Midrange compensation is a personal choice. I strongly prefer it out. Many others here prefer it in. Audyssey's guidance on it is poorly explained.
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post #2302 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

Awesome info.

Thanks much.

Will test with the midrange setting.

Is this on by default when using just mic that came with denon and not using pro

Yes, it is always there, unless you turn it off in Pro.
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post #2303 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Hi,

I think a lot matters with what's in the room, not just room size. My room is only 1250 cubic feet and I get a high freq roll-off (pre- Audyssey) like your big room. The room is heavily treated with broadband bass traps (DIY) due to the small size and dimensions. The surround/back speakers show very little roll off due to them being much closer to the mic during calibration. I keep midrange compensation off (IIRC, it was designed more for horn-loaded speakers, correct me if I'm wrong). L/R speakers are NHT Classic Fours. Here is my graph report:


I think the measured HF roll off is a beautiful thing that makes the sound perceptually flat. This is well known in acoustics. Your after curves look great to me. Note that HF response has actually been lifted to the target curve in your case, not attenuated to achieve the desired roll off.

After careful listening, I prefer midrange compensation off, too.
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post #2304 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 06:56 AM
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Some posters leave Mid-range Comp on, some turn it off. I would like to experiment to see which setting is best for my listening room. Can someone share what to listen for? Since it takes several minutes to switch the setting on and off, I have found it difficult to discern audible differences that would help me make the right choice. Is there a particular type of content to use? Are the differences obvious? Any direction would be appreciated.
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post #2305 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tandy1000rl View Post

With all the debate in the other Audyssey thread about HF brightness, large rooms, etc, I'm beginning to wonder if I have an issue with premature roll-off of high frequencies in the main speakers in my large room.

Your front speakers, especially the left, drop off dramatically at 6KHz. At 10KHz, it looks like about -7dB and at 20KHz -12dB. Have you done any independent measuring of their unequalized response? Should their native response be what it seems to be in the before graphs?

Jeff
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I asked this question in the FAQ but I think I might get a quicker response here. Does anyone how XT32 compares to the Pro kit? Any Pro users who switched to XT32, or vice-versa? I've just been hearing such good things about XT32 lately, so I thought I'd ask the Pro users.
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post #2307 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Hi,

I think a lot matters with what's in the room, not just room size. My room is only 1250 cubic feet and I get a high freq roll-off (pre- Audyssey) like your big room. The room is heavily treated with broadband bass traps (DIY) due to the small size and dimensions. The surround/back speakers show very little roll off due to them being much closer to the mic during calibration. I keep midrange compensation off (IIRC, it was designed more for horn-loaded speakers, correct me if I'm wrong). L/R speakers are NHT Classic Fours. Here is my graph report:


Thank you for sharing. Your L/R speakers almost appear to have a flat but overall tilted response, rather than a flat response with HF roll-off, especially when compared to the other speakers in your room. Maybe that's driven by having a fairly beefy floorstanding speaker in a relatively smaller room. Looks like Audyssey has no problems getting them to reference, however.

When you say the other speakers have little roll off due to being much closer to the mic...is that confirmed true? Per my research,

"There is some loss of highs with distance even in transients, because the air itself absorbs high frequencies more than it absorbs lower ones. Below 1000 Hz, air absorption is a negligible effect. But from 1000 Hz on up, the rate of air absorption increases steadily with increasing frequency. At 1000 Hz, the air absorption is less than .25 dB per 100 feet; at 4000 Hz it is 1.2 dB per 100 feet; and at 10,000 Hz it is 4.3 dB per 100 feet. So 50 feet back, say, 4 kHz is down about .5 dB, 10 kHz is down about 2 dB, relative to 1 kHz. These amounts depend considerably on relative humidity. The figures given are for 40 percent humidity. In the winter, when indoor humidity is very low because of heating, the differential air absorption is higher, with 10 kHz down 8 dB at 100 feet when the humidity is 20 percent" L. Beranek. Acoustics. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1954

So could an incremental 5 feet from the mic cause that much additional roll-off?

Anyway, to cut to the chase, Audyssey is clearly boosting your HF to achieve the target reference curve (which also has a HF roll-off, just not as much as your un-EQ'ed speakers). Do you find that boost crispy, bright, or unpleasant in any way? Looks like in some spots there's +3-4 dB of boost being applied.

Thanks again for sharing your graphs!
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post #2308 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by goneten View Post

I asked this question in the FAQ but I think I might get a quicker response here. Does anyone how XT32 compares to the Pro kit? Any Pro users who switched to XT32, or vice-versa? I've just been hearing such good things about XT32 lately, so I thought I'd ask the Pro users.

The Pro kit isn't an alternative to any version of MultEQ, it uses the filtering capability of whatever version of MultEQ it is used with and supplements it by adding a more precise measuring system and the ability to customize the target curve. And the crossover calculations are more flexible and precise.
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post #2309 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

tandy1000rl - You might have posted this somewhere already, but to confirm, you are selecting the small room and large room targets for the respective rooms, right?

Jeff

Yes, using the default Audyssey curve (with mid-range compensation removed) in the smaller room, while I'm using curve 2 in the large room with additional edits. Up until last night, I had been using these additional edits:

Hz,dB
2000,0
5000,-0.25
10000,-0.75
24000,-1.5

But just changed it to this:
2000,0
5000,-1
10000,-1
24000,-1

which seems to have restored a better spectral balance in the high frequencies. The thought came as a result of reading this:

The roll-off in the 10 kHz up region cannot repair the damage done by brightness in the 4-10 kHz region. In fact, the 10-20 kHz octave, which plays a large role in transient accuracy and texture, has an effect on tonal character that is smaller than, or at least different from, the 4-10 kHz range. Too much in the top octave makes things edgy, grainy, and over-etched. Too much in the 4-10 kHz region gives music a finger-nails-on-blackboard harshness. Neither frequency range can repair disaster in the other.
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post #2310 of 5614 Old 05-04-2012, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I think the Target Curve #1 is supposed to slope down by 2 dB between 4k and 10k. Not sure about #2, but I think it may be the same. Though my room is larger than 5,000 cu. ft., I prefer to stay with curve #1. Classical music concert hall sound is my subjective reference. But, it all depends on your room, system and tastes.

Care to post your certificate, at least for just the main channels? I've love to see some additional "very large room" graphs! ;-)
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