The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit Thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 85 - AVS Forum
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post #2521 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 06:36 AM
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^^^

3, if you don't count "large" as an option... that's consistent in every run i've done... so i think there is validity to your theory...

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post #2522 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 07:25 AM
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^^^^
Same results here.

I agree with the theory that there is probably very little audible difference between the xover selections given Pro's ability to mesh each channels eq based on the selected xover. I've tried the recommended setting and 80 - with the time it takes to load the settings, it wasn't possible to do much more than a subjective observation and I didn't notice any differences, so stayed with 80 all around.
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post #2523 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

3, if you don't count "large" as an option... that's consistent in every run i've done... so i think there is validity to your theory...

I am never offered that (on my THX speakers), so Large would be an option along with the crossovers.
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post #2524 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Perhaps the way to view it is that, if six are being offered, the six listed are the best. I seem to remember seeing only five options occasionally. If the number offered varies, then perhaps there is some "cutoff" in the recommendations? IOW, if there are five that are acceptable, then it offers five. If there are six that meet their criteria, then six are offered.

Poll - what number of crossovers are being offered when you do Pro calibrations? My thinking is that if I am correct that it can vary, my theory may be correct.

Curious about this as I get an interesting, if even counterintuitive, default recommendation on repeated runs..80hz for my 802di mains, 60hz for htm2di center, and 50hz for the bookshelf 805di's.

I know it is in room response that is being measured, but the 805's at 50 make no sense, even if I can believe that the 802's, because of room position and nodes, might be better at 80

I seem to recall Chris K writing somewhere that the crossovers options were listed in order of recommendation, which is even more curious since 80 is something like the fourth or fifth choice for the center and 805 wides.

As a side note, I also discovered how much 1/2 or 1 inch in speaker position / toe can matter in terms of the soundfield. I mean. I knew it mattered, but using a laser yesterday led to some surprising improvements.
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post #2525 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Curious about this as I get an interesting, if even counterintuitive, default recommendation on repeated runs..80hz for my 802di mains, 60hz for htm2di center, and 50hz for the bookshelf 805di's.

I know it is in room response that is being measured, but the 805's at 50 make no sense, even if I can believe that the 802's, because of room position and nodes, might be better at 80

I seem to recall Chris K writing somewhere that the crossovers options were listed in order of recommendation, which is even more curious since 80 is something like the fourth or fifth choice for the center and 805 wides.

As a side note, I also discovered how much 1/2 or 1 inch in speaker position / toe can matter in terms of the soundfield. I mean. I knew it mattered, but using a laser yesterday led to some surprising improvements.

I've never seen the number vary in my system and I was one of the earliest installers. However, if you do see the number vary, I would stick with one of the options shown. There is not necessarily much difference between the options. I.e., Audyssey will list at least some minimum number of options even if they are virtually identical in sound quality performance. In my case Audyssey suggests 40 Hz for my mains with 80 listed last, but, I know there are half a dozen reasons to use 80 that Audyssey does not consider (i.e., Audyssey looks just at the blend quality). For instance, can the satellites muster 105 db just above 40 Hz? Audyssey does not test that. On top of the various reasons for using 80 Hz, in my case my mains are ported and thus have poorer transient response and much greater group delay than my subwoofers and this is another reason to crossover above 40 Hz. I don't know, but I'd bet that Audyssey does not test for these either, leaving such subtleties up to me.
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post #2526 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I believe my B&W diamonds are crossed at 4k - if I set the dip using Pro, what did you set as the in and out points surrounding the target frequency - .5 K above and below, or something else? If onE just sets the target point, it would ramp proportionally throughout the entire spectrum...

Can you sense a positive difference?

Thanks

If our understanding is correct, that the compensation dip is to clean up some effects on vocals, there probably isn't much need for compensation in your case. I.e., I wonder if there is any voice content at 4 kHz. Don't quote me on this, but I doubt there is. Maybe somebody knows. I have to run but I'll google it later.
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post #2527 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Curious about this as I get an interesting, if even counterintuitive, default recommendation on repeated runs..80hz for my 802di mains, 60hz for htm2di center, and 50hz for the bookshelf 805di's.

I know it is in room response that is being measured, but the 805's at 50 make no sense, even if I can believe that the 802's, because of room position and nodes, might be better at 80.

I seem to recall Chris K writing somewhere that the crossovers options were listed in order of recommendation, which is even more curious since 80 is something like the fourth or fifth choice for the center and 805 wides.

Yes, it is simply a matter of the -3dB point in the speaker's response where it is in the room. There is no measuring, much less considering, distortion. Or amplifier power.

My THX speakers, purposely designed to be used with an 80Hz crossover, are offered 60Hz, 50Hz and (IIRC) 70Hz before the 80Hz crossover.

Quote:


As a side note, I also discovered how much 1/2 or 1 inch in speaker position / toe can matter in terms of the soundfield. I mean. I knew it mattered, but using a laser yesterday led to some surprising improvements.

Depending on your speaker's dispersion characteristics, that is not surprising.

Jeff
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post #2528 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Perhaps the way to view it is that, if six are being offered, the six listed are the best. I seem to remember seeing only five options occasionally. If the number offered varies, then perhaps there is some "cutoff" in the recommendations? IOW, if there are five that are acceptable, then it offers five. If there are six that meet their criteria, then six are offered.

Poll - what number of crossovers are being offered when you do Pro calibrations? My thinking is that if I am correct that it can vary, my theory may be correct.

Here are my crossover recommendations:

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post #2529 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 12:26 PM
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You're only being offered the options you have listed?? I.e., just two for the center channel?

Jeff
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post #2530 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You're only being offered the options you have listed?? I.e., just two for the center channel?

Jeff

Yes, that is all.
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post #2531 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Curious about this as I get an interesting, if even counterintuitive, default recommendation on repeated runs..80hz for my 802di mains, 60hz for htm2di center, and 50hz for the bookshelf 805di's.

I know it is in room response that is being measured, but the 805's at 50 make no sense, even if I can believe that the 802's, because of room position and nodes, might be better at 80

I seem to recall Chris K writing somewhere that the crossovers options were listed in order of recommendation, which is even more curious since 80 is something like the fourth or fifth choice for the center and 805 wides.

As a side note, I also discovered how much 1/2 or 1 inch in speaker position / toe can matter in terms of the soundfield. I mean. I knew it mattered, but using a laser yesterday led to some surprising improvements.

thrang,

Can you please elaborate on your toe in findings!

How did you aim the speakers and what were the results?

For instance, did you aim the left speaker at the MLP listeners left ear and the right speaker at the right ear? Did you aim both LR speakers at the point centered in between the MLP listeners ears? Did you cross the LR speakers to a point opposite each ear? Did you aim the LR speakers to a central point in front or behind the MLP or cross the speakers in front of or behind the MLP?... And what were the results?

You get the point, enlighten us please!

Thanks!


...Glenn
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post #2532 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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^Glenn, it seems to me that toe in results will vary considerably, depending on several factors. Certainly speaker make/model and distance to MLP are high amongst them, making generalization from Thrang's specific results difficult. The general guideline is for best imaging and soundstage width, MLP should be at the apex of an equilateral triangle with FR/L speakers. The distance of each speaker to MLP should be exactly the same, but the distance between the speakers is less critical.

The best thing to do is have as assistant help move and point them whilst you judge-see pic.
LL

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post #2533 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


The best thing to do is have as assistant help move and point them whilst you judge-see pic.

Interesting approach--a tower speaker on its side. That's what I call a radical toe-in.
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post #2534 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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^Sideways is just one of many positions one might try, inspired by a sufficiently creative and flexible partner.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #2535 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post

thrang,

Can you please elaborate on your toe in findings!

How did you aim the speakers and what were the results?

For instance, did you aim the left speaker at the MLP listeners left ear and the right speaker at the right ear? Did you aim both LR speakers at the point centered in between the MLP listeners ears? Did you cross the LR speakers to a point opposite each ear? Did you aim the LR speakers to a central point in front or behind the MLP or cross the speakers in front of or behind the MLP?... And what were the results?

You get the point, enlighten us please!

Thanks!


...Glenn

Everyyone's experiences will be different.

I discovered that my toe in angle wasn't equal to start, and too toed on the left. I ended up with the aim point behind the mlp - using a laser level beam from the front bezel of each speaker has the point about 18 inchies outside each ear. This helped further correct some of the imbalance I was hearing left to right - that and debrox...

I'll try a few other angles, but want to live with this for a few days

I also found a manual tweak that helped improve my bass response at the crossover - my JL Audio 113 subs have a variable phase adjustment which were set at 0 for my cal. I played a 80 hz tone (my crossover) with one one sub at a time active (along with the the left/riight speakers), and found one sub had a about a 4 db increase in mlp bass response with the phase set at about 40 degrees (using a calibrated omnimic reading) The second sub had the best integration at 0 phase degrees. I checked with both subs active, and there was no negative effect with one sub at 40 and one at 0.

While I thought Audyssey would compensate for such phase issues as part of the process (I believe Chris K has mentioned to not touch phase settings on the sub), it did not correct this moderate phase misalignment on s own. The result with the tweak is tighter bass than the very good results Pro provided on its own
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post #2536 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Interesting approach--a tower speaker on its side. That's what I call a radical toe-in.

Isn't that tip-in or roll-over?

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post #2537 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Isn't that tip-in or roll-over?

From a different angle, there is a different toe...

of never mind, it's late...
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Re: toe-in

I convinced myself that the best toe-in at my place (with B&W 683s) is where the largest angle between direct radiation and direction to any one listener across the listening area is minimized, i.e., with the min-max off-axis angle across the listening area. In general, this need not be the same as pointing the fronts at the MLP, and it isn't at my place: it's essentailly 1/3 along the main listening couch.
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post #2539 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Yes, that is all.

That, I think, confirms that it only offers "acceptable" options? If so, we shouldn't be too concerned about going down the list for one we consider better for other reasons. Make sense?

Jeff
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post #2540 of 5561 Old 06-03-2012, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post


I also found a manual tweak that helped improve my bass response at the crossover - my JL Audio 113 subs have a variable phase adjustment which were set at 0 for my cal. I played a 80 hz tone (my crossover) with one one sub at a time active (along with the the left/riight speakers), and found one sub had a about a 4 db increase in mlp bass response with the phase set at about 40 degrees (using a calibrated omnimic reading) The second sub had the best integration at 0 phase degrees. I checked with both subs active, and there was no negative effect with one sub at 40 and one at 0.

While I thought Audyssey would compensate for such phase issues as part of the process (I believe Chris K has mentioned to not touch phase settings on the sub), it did not correct this moderate phase misalignment on s own. The result with the tweak is tighter bass than the very good results Pro provided on its own

Another approach is to set the sub phase(s) at zero (mine have no phase dial)_ and adjust the sub distance (in the AVR, not physically) and keep re-measuring with OmniMic/REW/XTZ. Adjusting the phase knob on the sub only adjusts at one frequency while adjusting the sub-distance affects all sub frequencies. You will find many posters doing what I am doing and getting great results. This is an approach suggested by Mark Seaton and it works incredibly well most of the time.
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post #2541 of 5561 Old 06-04-2012, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

That, I think, confirms that it only offers "acceptable" options? If so, we shouldn't be too concerned about going down the list for one we consider better for other reasons. Make sense?Jeff

Now that observation, my freiend, has the makings of a very good question for "Ask Audyssey".

On top of all the myriad other reasons to raise the xover to 80, I like the convenient control of the octave between 40 and 80 using sub ch trim.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Another approach is to set the sub phase(s) at zero (mine have no phase dial)_ and adjust the sub distance (in the AVR, not physically) and keep re-measuring with OmniMic/REW/XTZ. Adjusting the phase knob on the sub only adjusts at one frequency while adjusting the sub-distance affects all sub frequencies. You will find many posters doing what I am doing and getting great results. This is an approach suggested by Mark Seaton and it works incredibly well most of the time.

I was experimenting with different crossovers in my integra, and regardless of which tone frequency I was measuring, the phase control impacted the db readings, so that would imply is was affecting more than a single frequency. Not sure what you are saying...
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post #2543 of 5561 Old 06-04-2012, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I was experimenting with different crossovers in my integra, and regardless of which tone frequency I was measuring, the phase control impacted the db readings, so that would imply is was affecting more than a single frequency. Not sure what you are saying...

More correctly characterized, the phase control affects the region around the splice, but still not the whole range reproduced by the sub.

Jeff
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post #2544 of 5561 Old 06-04-2012, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

More correctly characterized, the phase control affects the region around the splice, but still not the whole range reproduced by the sub.

Jeff

So let me be dumb - since the crossover is set in the processor, the sub would not know if it was 40 or 90...so are you saying phases adjustments assume 80 and adjust around that range?

Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So let me be dumb - since the crossover is set in the processor, the sub would not know if it was 40 or 90...so are you saying phases adjustments assume 80 and adjust around that range?

Thanks

I was purposely vague as to exactly where the "region" altered was, but from what I've read the phase control affects the top of the range reproduced by the sub and typically that is 150-ish and down. One sixty hertz to eighty hertz is an octave, so I'm going to go with that.

I'm completely certain that it doesn't change the entire sub's output. A polarity control does, but it's coarse. Distance setting affects the entire range and it is very fine in its adjustments. So, for the purposes of improving the splice .. if a dip there is from cancellation between the mains and sub, it is the control to use.

Jeff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I was experimenting with different crossovers in my integra, and regardless of which tone frequency I was measuring, the phase control impacted the db readings, so that would imply is was affecting more than a single frequency.

Were you measuring the sub only?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post


I was experimenting with different crossovers in my integra, and regardless of which tone frequency I was measuring, the phase control impacted the db readings, so that would imply is was affecting more than a single frequency. Not sure what you are saying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


Were you measuring the sub only?

It had to be with the satellites. Constructive(increase in dB) or destructive(decrease in dB) phase interference can only happen if two audio sources are producing the exact same frequencies.

Phase will have no impact on dB with a single source.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

More correctly characterized, the phase control affects the region around the splice, but still not the whole range reproduced by the sub.

Jeff

No, I do not think that is accurate. I think a sub's phase control affects its entire range. In many cases, subs only have zero and 180, which is basically a polarity reversal for the entire range and it is completely independent of crossover frequency. Other subs have variable phase between these extremes, but they are still affecting the entire sub range. So, it is basically the same as tweaking sub distance. Either affects the whole sub range.
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Yep. Phase control does not alter the acoustic output, only how that output interacts with the other speakers ... and the space.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

No, I do not think that is accurate. I think a sub's phase control affects its entire range. In many cases, subs only have zero and 180, which is basically a polarity reversal for the entire range and it is completely independent of crossover frequency. Other subs have variable phase between these extremes, but they are still affecting the entire sub range. So, it is basically the same as tweaking sub distance. Either affects the whole sub range.

The references I can find agree with what I posted, including all of Audyssey's information. Can you point to one that agrees with you in that it alters the entire band?

Jeff
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