Yamaha RX-A3000/3010 vs Denon AVR-4311CI - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 07-16-2011, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to update my TV and Onkyo receiver at the end of this year. I have a 7.2 speaker system with reference Boston series speakers, a Hsu VTF-2 sub, and a Velodyne Minivee-10 sub. I'm going to get a Samsung 8000 series TV for my 50th b-day, and I'm hoping to get some guidance on the key differences and recommendations between the Yamaha and Denon receivers in the $1000-2000 range. The key things I'm looking for in features are min 7.2, at least 125W/ch, iPod connectivity, a good remote and perhaps a good GUI, and it would be nice to have some network capability (including ability to add Sirius radio down the road). But if there are some other things that should be considered a "must have," please let me know. I'm not going to upgrade my receiver again this decade, so when in doubt I'd rather pay a bit more now to not regret TOO much not having a different receiver 2 yrs from now.

From what I've read in this forum, Yamaha didn't do much in their upgrade from the RX-A3000 to the RX-A3010. It appears the 3010 might have a better GUI and maybe a better iPod connection (?), but I wonder if there is some other feature differences I'm missing other than an extra 10W/ch (big whoop). Again, I don't mind spending a few hundred extra bucks which I'll forget all about a year from now if the 3010 at least added a couple good new features.

My dilemna with Denon is that I'm getting my TV at the end of the year, and I don't want to wait until Spring 2012 (min) for the AVR-4313. So if I went with Denon, my choice would be between the AVR-4311CI and the AVR-3312CI. It would go against my grain to buy the AVR-4311CI which came out about a year ago instead of the Yamaha RX-A3010 for about the same price since the spec/features of these two look really similar. Is there a big difference in quality or features between these two that I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for pointing out some of the key differences and any other recommendations (including other brands to consider?).
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post #2 of 24 Old 07-17-2011, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschiller View Post

I'm going to update my TV and Onkyo receiver at the end of this year. I have a 7.2 speaker system with reference Boston series speakers, a Hsu VTF-2 sub, and a Velodyne Minivee-10 sub. I'm going to get a Samsung 8000 series TV for my 50th b-day, and I'm hoping to get some guidance on the key differences and recommendations between the Yamaha and Denon receivers in the $1000-2000 range. The key things I'm looking for in features are min 7.2, at least 125W/ch, iPod connectivity, a good remote and perhaps a good GUI, and it would be nice to have some network capability (including ability to add Sirius radio down the road). But if there are some other things that should be considered a "must have," please let me know. I'm not going to upgrade my receiver again this decade, so when in doubt I'd rather pay a bit more now to not regret TOO much not having a different receiver 2 yrs from now.

From what I've read in this forum, Yamaha didn't do much in their upgrade from the RX-A3000 to the RX-A3010. It appears the 3010 might have a better GUI and maybe a better iPod connection (?), but I wonder if there is some other feature differences I'm missing other than an extra 10W/ch (big whoop). Again, I don't mind spending a few hundred extra bucks which I'll forget all about a year from now if the 3010 at least added a couple good new features.

My dilemna with Denon is that I'm getting my TV at the end of the year, and I don't want to wait until Spring 2012 (min) for the AVR-4313. So if I went with Denon, my choice would be between the AVR-4311CI and the AVR-3312CI. It would go against my grain to buy the AVR-4311CI which came out about a year ago instead of the Yamaha RX-A3010 for about the same price since the spec/features of these two look really similar. Is there a big difference in quality or features between these two that I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for pointing out some of the key differences and any other recommendations (including other brands to consider?).

One feature the Yamaha RX-Axxxx series has is Switching of Inputs while in Standby. If you have multiple HDMI inputs and at times like to just watch the TV without turning the AVR on and have the ability to switch those inputs without turning the AVR on, Yamaha is the only one that will do this. Most all of the other company AVR's have pass-through but not switching while in standby. I called Denon Friday and they do not currently make any receivers that support this feature. This feature may not be important to you but thought I would let you know.

-Tom
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post #3 of 24 Old 07-17-2011, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for pointing out this difference, Tom. I've been reading posts on the Denon 4311 owner's thread and the Yamaha RX-A3000 owner's thread. The majority of the posts are very positive for both. I've seen a lot of recommendations for the 4311 apparently for its Quality (and the fact that it's "worked out its bugs") as opposed to having more bells and whistles than other receivers. But I haven't read anything that compares these receivers head-to-head. One moderator wrote that he's pretty much "over" Yamaha, but he didn't say why. On the other hand, I've read in the Yamaha forum that the RX-A3000 (and presumably also the new A3010) is a great receiver especially at that price point.

If someone had some good reasons why the quality of one of these is better than the other, I'd love to hear it. BTW, it would have been nice if one of these had wireless network connectivity, because I will have to drill a hole in a wall to run an ethernet cable. Oh well. I bet the Denon 4313 will be wireless, but since I'm getting the TV at the end of the year, I don't want to wait until Spring. My current Onkyo TX-DS989 "flagship" receiver doesn't even have HDMI.
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post #4 of 24 Old 07-18-2011, 12:46 AM
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Have you considered Pioneer Elite SC-37 in your choices??
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post #5 of 24 Old 07-18-2011, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschiller View Post

... The key things I'm looking for in features are min 7.2, at least 125W/ch.

I would take Yamaha's power ratings with a grain of salt. I have the A2000 which is rated at 130W but Home Theater Magazine posted test results that says at .1% THD it is only outputting 71W with 5 channels driven and I think it was 63W with 7 channels driven.
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post #6 of 24 Old 07-18-2011, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like the SC-37 is 7.1 and I have 2 subwoofers, which is too bad cause I know Pioneer Elites have a good rep. The misleading power rating is concerning! I'll have to look into this more and also see if Denon has a similar misleading rating.
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post #7 of 24 Old 07-24-2011, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dschiller View Post
...BTW, it would have been nice if one of these had wireless network connectivity, because I will have to drill a hole in a wall to run an ethernet cable. Oh well....
You do have other options than drilling a hole. I've actually found that a much better solution than using the built-in wireless in components is an access point. The built in wireless is fine for low bandwidth uses like streaming music but I found for high bandwidth, like HD video/audio, even wifi-n had issues.

In my case, I have a D-Link DIR-655 wireless router and my equipment is all connected to a DAP-1522. I stream high bandwidth media all the time with this configuration. No wireless is perfect, i.e., no matter how good your devices, you'll still get the occasional hiccup.

Obviously, using the wireless on the device keeps from having to run yet another cable, but I'll trade that for the better performance I get from a more stable connection from an Access Point device.

I"m also looking at the RX-A3010 to replace my AVR in the next couple months or so. The info baforer mentioned regarding the power ratings is indeed disconcerting.

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post #8 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 08:46 AM
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It looks like the 3010 will also run in ful 9.2 configuration with back surrounds and front presence on at the same time, without having to use an outboard amp. I'm currently running the RX-V1800 and have been looking at the Intergra DTR 80.2 but now with a 3010 on the horizon, I may be able to stay with Yamaha.

Would love to hear more about how YPAO stands up to Audyssey.

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post #9 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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i had the 2000 Yamaha and the 4311 in my house at the same time. The Denon crushed the yamaha with the xt32, no ifs and or butts about it. I also run dual subs. However, some people prefer ypao over audyssey. this i just my opinion only..
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post #10 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 09:50 AM
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Without getting too sidetracked, do you recall why some prefer ypao over audyssey?

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post #11 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 09:57 AM
 
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Without getting "too deep" over the YPAO/Audyssey discussion...

YPAO "requires" all 5/7 speakers match(well be really, really, really close in capability).

Audyssey is designed more to "make up for" differences in speakers ability.

So, if you give a YPAO receiver "all matching speakers", Audyssey can't touch YPAO. YPAO uses the same parametric style EQ as many of the "highly sought after" aftermarket room correction software.

So, it all depends if you are willing to do a HT "the complete correct way", with all 5/7 speakers being EXACTLY the same(which is a THX guideline anyway)...Buy a Yamaha(yes the 3000 and 2000, maybe the 1000, have multi-crossovers, of course I've been told that by someone else, although reading the manual of the 1000/2000 doesn't specify. I'd like clarification)
If you want front towers and rear bookshelves, buy an Audyssey receiver.

MCACC is also set-up for "matching speakers".
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post #12 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baforer View Post

I would take Yamaha's power ratings with a grain of salt. I have the A2000 which is rated at 130W but Home Theater Magazine posted test results that says at .1% THD it is only outputting 71W with 5 channels driven and I think it was 63W with 7 channels driven.

Take all brands power ratings with a grain of salt. They all play with the numbers.
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post #13 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post
Without getting "too deep" over the YPAO/Audyssey discussion...

YPAO "requires" all 5/7 speakers match(well be really, really, really close in capability).

Audyssey is designed more to "make up for" differences in speakers ability.

So, if you give a YPAO receiver "all matching speakers", Audyssey can't touch YPAO. YPAO uses the same parametric style EQ as many of the "highly sought after" aftermarket room correction software.

So, it all depends if you are willing to do a HT "the complete correct way", with all 5/7 speakers being EXACTLY the same(which is a THX guideline anyway)...Buy a Yamaha(yes the 3000 and 2000, maybe the 1000, have multi-crossovers, of course I've been told that by someone else, although reading the manual of the 1000/2000 doesn't specify. I'd like clarification)
If you want front towers and rear bookshelves, buy an Audyssey receiver.

MCACC is also set-up for "matching speakers".
Oh my Oh my Oh my! Opinions are like noses...everyone has one so take the above opinion for what it is as you should take mine.
All 9 of my speakers are the same and audyssey still crushes the pioneer and Yamaha in MY system. HOWEVER, because everyone hears (and likes things they hear differently) your room (and speakers) and YOUR preference is what matters! I have a friend who just lovesssssss bloated bass sound. Makes me never want to watch a movie at his place. My system is wayyyyy better TO ME, but he hates it and says it has no bass. (even though my dual MFW 15's will shale plaster from the walls WHEN required to do so by the content.
If you have dual subs then there should be no decision in my opinion as xt32 in Denon is far far superior to either the Pioneer or Yamaha.
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post #14 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post
Without getting "too deep" over the YPAO/Audyssey discussion...

YPAO "requires" all 5/7 speakers match(well be really, really, really close in capability).

Audyssey is designed more to "make up for" differences in speakers ability.

So, if you give a YPAO receiver "all matching speakers", Audyssey can't touch YPAO. YPAO uses the same parametric style EQ as many of the "highly sought after" aftermarket room correction software.

So, it all depends if you are willing to do a HT "the complete correct way", with all 5/7 speakers being EXACTLY the same(which is a THX guideline anyway)...Buy a Yamaha(yes the 3000 and 2000, maybe the 1000, have multi-crossovers, of course I've been told that by someone else, although reading the manual of the 1000/2000 doesn't specify. I'd like clarification)
If you want front towers and rear bookshelves, buy an Audyssey receiver.

MCACC is also set-up for "matching speakers".
Ummm, no.

Unless you have something from each of those EQ designers to support that statement, your opinion of how they work has superseded the facts.

There are huge differences in the design and operation of YPAO/Audyssey/MCACC, from the basic operating model through filter resolution, ability to work within time domain, and handling (or not for MCACC) of the lower octaves.

None of these will be "better in all situations", or "designed for matching speakers". A review of the features would be a good place for individual users to select the best option for their situation.
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post #15 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 10:55 AM
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Never mind the fact that the aforementioned poster doesn't even use Audyssey. Said so in many cases. As a user of three different EQ programs, Audyssey XT,older version of YPAO, and now H/K's EZ setEQ II. Of the three Audyssey would be my last choice. It may be that I don't know how to use it properly, just don't like it. IMO of the three the H/K program was the easiest and best so far. Love it, but also got very good results with YPAO. These programs are very dependent on your room. Audyseey just sounds like ca ca in my room. YMMV. And as for as the "same" speakers all around that is also garbage. The EQ program is supposed to cure that little ill, isn't it. If it doesn't whats the use of having an EQ program at all.
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post #16 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Without getting too sidetracked, do you recall why some prefer ypao over audyssey?

You can make adjustments to YPAO's output and tune the result to your taste. You can't with Audyssey so you either like the Audyssey output or you turn it off. If you turn it off, then you lose access to other Audyssey's feature like Dyn Volume and possibly DSX.

Audyssey is technically more sophisticated than YPAO though.

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post #17 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by eecubed View Post

you can make adjustments to ypao's output and tune the result to your taste. You can't with audyssey so you either like the audyssey output or your turn it off. If you turn it off, then you lose access to other audyssey's feature like dyn volume and possibly dsx.

Audyssey is technically more sophisticated than ypao though.

+1
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post #18 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 04:51 PM
 
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The bottom line is, like speakers, you really need to try all room corrections out in YOUR room to see which one is best FOR YOU. I don't get all hung up on having ruler flat response from 20-20 but I go with what sounds best FOR ME, in MY room. Audyssey works best for me with yamaha a close second and pioneers mcaac a very distant third. Have not used the HK system...
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 05:41 PM
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I agree. YPAO, MCACC and Audyssey all come down to personal preference. I have become a big believer in room correction and I would like to try as many different kinds as I can. I was close to trying YPAO because the 867 was such a good deal but I just went with the safe pick and got the Denon 3311. I had the 3310 so the 3311 was a seamless switch. I didn't have to reprogram my harmony or learn new GUI or anything. I did want to see how ypao did with my system but I didn't like that it doesn't eq a sub. I think the A2000 and the A3000 were the only ones that would eq below 63hz. I still wanted to hear what the 867 would sound like but I found a really good deal on the 3311 so I had to jump on it. I do like Audyssey better than MCACC for my system. I still want to try out YPAO and Athem's ARC at some point. I'm hoping the Anthems will be more competitive down the road when it comes to features because I've heard a lot of good reviews of ARC.
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post #20 of 24 Old 07-27-2011, 09:51 PM
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I think the key to this has to be whether or not you have fairly similar speakers. At one time, I ran multiple Rane equalizers in my system that included 3 different types of speakers. It was amazing how similar you could make very dissimilar speakers sound. Then I changed over to 7 identical speakers and ditched the equalizers. I suspect that many would find that having identical speakers is the better way to go.

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post #21 of 24 Old 07-28-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschiller View Post

I'm going to update my TV and Onkyo receiver at the end of this year. I have a 7.2 speaker system with reference Boston series speakers, a Hsu VTF-2 sub, and a Velodyne Minivee-10 sub. I'm going to get a Samsung 8000 series TV for my 50th b-day, and I'm hoping to get some guidance on the key differences and recommendations between the Yamaha and Denon receivers in the $1000-2000 range. The key things I'm looking for in features are min 7.2, at least 125W/ch, iPod connectivity, a good remote and perhaps a good GUI, and it would be nice to have some network capability (including ability to add Sirius radio down the road). But if there are some other things that should be considered a "must have," please let me know. I'm not going to upgrade my receiver again this decade, so when in doubt I'd rather pay a bit more now to not regret TOO much not having a different receiver 2 yrs from now.

From what I've read in this forum, Yamaha didn't do much in their upgrade from the RX-A3000 to the RX-A3010. It appears the 3010 might have a better GUI and maybe a better iPod connection (?), but I wonder if there is some other feature differences I'm missing other than an extra 10W/ch (big whoop). Again, I don't mind spending a few hundred extra bucks which I'll forget all about a year from now if the 3010 at least added a couple good new features.

My dilemna with Denon is that I'm getting my TV at the end of the year, and I don't want to wait until Spring 2012 (min) for the AVR-4313. So if I went with Denon, my choice would be between the AVR-4311CI and the AVR-3312CI. It would go against my grain to buy the AVR-4311CI which came out about a year ago instead of the Yamaha RX-A3010 for about the same price since the spec/features of these two look really similar. Is there a big difference in quality or features between these two that I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for pointing out some of the key differences and any other recommendations (including other brands to consider?).

Denon AVRs tend to be loaded with tons of Hi Tech features. The 4311 & 3312 have many features that the Yamaha either do not have or have less sophisticated implementation. Features like Dolby IIz, DSX Height/Wide speakers, Apple AirPlay, Dyn Volume, etc... Their reliability do suffer as a result. Denon is fairly committed to using firmware update to fix their problems and to provide new features. Regardless, I would not buy a Denon AVR until 6 months after it has been released to give Denon time to work out all the teething issues.

Yamaha AVRs tend to use more in-house developed features. Their AVRs are pretty solid in reliability so they don't update their firmware as much.

I would pick the features that are important to you and go with the lowest cost AVR that can deliver those features.

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post #22 of 24 Old 07-29-2011, 10:14 AM
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My DSP-A3090 just went belly up after 14 years of service and now I am looking at the Denon Avr-4810Ci or the Yamaha 3010. I must admit that I have have always loved the Yamaha quality with the natural sounds. Moreover, when married with their natural sound CD changer, nothing compares. Though I am not totally sold on the Yamaha, I want the best bang for my bucks. I was in BB store listening and making comparison, the mid to lower end Denon had higher sound levels than the Yamaha, but when the Yamaha cranks up, they sould really good.
I have been told that Denon tend to have some quality and maintainance issues. I have been to five different audio stores that sells both and three sales person said they would stick with Yamaha and for various reasons. Though I would get a bigger bang for my money on the Denon, I feel as if I am leaning towards Yahama. Is anyone familiar with the AVR4810Ci, and if so, what's your experience? When will the 3010 made available?
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post #23 of 24 Old 07-29-2011, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by LBAM View Post

My DSP-A3090 just went belly up after 14 years of service and now I am looking at the Denon Avr-4810Ci or the Yamaha 3010. I must admit that I have have always loved the Yamaha quality with the natural sounds. Moreover, when married with their natural sound CD changer, nothing compares. Though I am not totally sold on the Yamaha, I want the best bang for my bucks. I was in BB store listening and making comparison, the mid to lower end Denon had higher sound levels than the Yamaha, but when the Yamaha cranks up, they sould really good.
I have been told that Denon tend to have some quality and maintainance issues. I have been to five different audio stores that sells both and three sales person said they would stick with Yamaha and for various reasons. Though I would get a bigger bang for my money on the Denon, I feel as if I am leaning towards Yahama. Is anyone familiar with the AVR4810Ci, and if so, what's your experience? When will the 3010 made available?

Is there something from the 4810 that you feel you want over either the Yamaha or the Denon 4311? Below is the link to the 4810's dedicated thread. IMO you may also want to consider the Yamaha A3000 in these AVR's. If you are favoring the Yamaha's I feel you should stick with them. They are still the most reliable on the market, great connectivity, plenty of power, and the build quality is still very good. The Denon 4311 at this time seems to be the Denon to get. It's issues have been fixed and seems to be rated among the very best on this forum and others. Plenty of help here for setting one of them up also. Same for setting up a Yamaha though. Good luck and enjoy whichever you choose. With AVR's in this price range though if possible I would bring one of each home to try out. Best way if it all possible.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...highlight=4810
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post #24 of 24 Old 07-29-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post

One feature the Yamaha RX-Axxxx series has is Switching of Inputs while in Standby. If you have multiple HDMI inputs and at times like to just watch the TV without turning the AVR on and have the ability to switch those inputs without turning the AVR on, Yamaha is the only one that will do this. Most all of the other company AVR's have pass-through but not switching while in standby. I called Denon Friday and they do not currently make any receivers that support this feature. This feature may not be important to you but thought I would let you know.

Onkyo receivers support HDMI pass-through as its in standby
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