The "Official" Pioneer Elite SC-55/SC-57 Owners Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 08:39 AM
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FilmMixer,
I have a cheapo phono preamp and listen to records about once a week. (Currently on my Onkyo 805 w/onboard preamp). Should I let the fact that the 57 doesn't have a phono preamp be a show stopper? Always liked the warm sound of Pioneers and think it would match well with my Klipsch Forte's.

In other words, does the sound quality warrant letting my LP sound "suffer" (at least temporaily due to cheap outboard preamp)?
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post #272 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akopperl View Post

For late night viewing, Dolby Volume is the best option I've heard for dialog intelligibility. I'm not just referring to activating Dolby Volume, but also the leveling feature for late night viewing. The Pioneer units seem to have several options ALC, Optimum Surround and Dialog Enhancement - how do these compare? Do you use them simultaneously?

Thanks

The Pioneers used to have a midnight mode, but these ones don't. ALC, I think, is used for broadcast signals in which the commercials are overly loud compared to the program. The dialog enhancement works well, and the center channel width is adjustable.

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post #273 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 11:44 AM
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legierk

The SC-55/57 DO HAVE dedicated, standard phono moving magnet (5mV/47kOhm) inputs, just as ALL previous SC-XX Elites. No external preamp needed, unless you have a low output moving coil cartridge.

It's the new VSX Elites that DO NOT have phono inputs. I don't know about older VSX Elites in regard to phono inputs.

All Pioneer SC Elites have phono inputs!
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post #274 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 11:50 AM
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ECT,
Well, I took a closer look at the manual. How did I overlook that? Thanks. Now, if I can only find one, I'd buy it.
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post #275 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akopperl View Post

For late night viewing, Dolby Volume is the best option I've heard for dialog intelligibility. I'm not just referring to activating Dolby Volume, but also the leveling feature for late night viewing. The Pioneer units seem to have several options ALC, Optimum Surround and Dialog Enhancement - how do these compare? Do you use them simultaneously?

Thanks

The 55/57 also include THX Loudness Plus, another variation on the theme.. (I can't tell you how any of them compare as I don't use them, however... I'm lucky I have a wife and daughters that will sleep through anything (I've trained them well... )
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post #276 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 01:26 PM
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I currently can't use my large speaker setup (for possibly a year or so), but still need a new receiver. Would the SC-55 be a waste on an Orb Audio setup that is paired with a MiniVee 10" sub?
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post #277 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 01:47 PM
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post #278 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 02:13 PM
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^^
I hope you guys asking about this realize that you can't compare the capacitor & power supplies used between class A/B amps and class D amps - that's a meaningless comparison

Your example of the VSX-5x series are all class A/B amps. Class D amps do not need the same capacitor "capacity" or same power supplies as they are pulsing the power on/off very rapidly at full power vs. keeping it on all the time, varying its amplitude and wasting a lot as heat.

As long as you realize those 2 comparisons are meaningless, then asking how these new amps compare to the previous class D Icepower amps may be an OK comparison

If you get an answer from Pioneer, please post.

Steve
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post #279 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
I hope you guys asking about this realize that you can't compare the capacitor & power supplies used between class A/B amps and class D amps - that's a meaningless comparison

Your example of the VSX-5x series are all class A/B amps. Class D amps do not need the same capacitor "capacity" or same power supplies as they are pulsing the power on/off very rapidly at full power vs. keeping it on all the time, varying its amplitude and wasting a lot as heat.

As long as you realize those 2 comparisons are meaningless, then asking how these new amps compare to the previous class D Icepower amps may be an OK comparison

If you get an answer from Pioneer, please post.

Hey Steve....thanks for the post. You beat me to the punch. Very different amp techonologies that are can't be compared via cap or power supply size.

A/B vs digital switching amps (like the SC series employs) just can't be made using traditional methods.

Hope you're doing well. Good to see you're still around!

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post #280 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
I hope you guys asking about this realize that you can't compare the capacitor & power supplies used between class A/B amps and class D amps - that's a meaningless comparison

Your example of the VSX-5x series are all class A/B amps. Class D amps do not need the same capacitor "capacity" or same power supplies as they are pulsing the power on/off very rapidly at full power vs. keeping it on all the time, varying its amplitude and wasting a lot as heat.

As long as you realize those 2 comparisons are meaningless, then asking how these new amps compare to the previous class D Icepower amps may be an OK comparison

I pointed that out before he found that old press release.

And it also bears repeating it isn't the sole determinant of the resulting audio quality of said AVR's..

While the cap spec and quality of both those and the power supply aren't trivial, if the AVR meets stated and measure output the need to know such information is a curiosity at best, IMO (and he is equally entitled to his..)

Just as knowing the price of an AVR can taint your opinion of it. I find the pursuit of such minutiae to have little bearing on the evaluation of the quality of an AVR, and just add to the "placebo" effect so many things can have to subjective evaluation with your ears.
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post #281 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

While the cap spec and quality of both those and the power supply aren't trivial, if the AVR meets stated and measure output the need to know such information is a curiosity at best, IMO (and he is equally entitled to his..)...If the information is of such a critical nature to him, I suggested he purchase the service manual like many of us have done in the past...

Fine and well if this is less relevant for class D, but in general, the idea that a consumer should be challenged bullied for asking for details about the product is just not cool at all. At least in the A/B world the information could help to uncover the reality of the amps ability to deal with transients. Fair enough if he wants to know - he's the customer.

When you consider that the all the mainstream AV electronics such as Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon etc all seem to be gutting their amp sections and hiding it with blatantly fudged performance data, I just cant blame the guy for asking. And no, he should have to PAY for a service manual to get it.

Overall, the mentality with which you are approaching the guy for seeking infomation about a potential purchase, is rather anti-consumer and outdated. The way the world works is they should be be more transparent and more accessible. I mean how much money is Pioneer spending on marketing in the form of (usually ineffective) advertising? What if they spend that money on a better website, with FULL details and a decent social media presence where they are actually RESPONDING to consumer questions.

It would be a lot better than them blanking the guy and then you piling on him with outdated conception of customer service. Its like he is looking to buy food in a supermarket where the product info is on the label and you are asking him why cant he be happy with the old days where all the food was behind the counter and all you get is cryptic answers - or worse yet no answers - from a surly shopkeeper.

Also what we are seeing here is further evidence that demanding folks dont trust these guys anymore. And meanwhile the non-demanding customers would probably be just as happy with a Dell logo or an Apple on their electronics. I dont think most of these consumer AV brands will last much longer. Particularly not with their previous-century ideas of marketing and customer service.

Just my two cents.
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post #282 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Why is this important and why is this cross posted in the SC-37 thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

Fine and well if this is less relevant for class D, but in general, the idea that a consumer should be challenged bullied for asking for details about the product is just not cool at all.

Look at my original reply to his question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by audio777 View Post

Sent an email to Pioneer?
What are the specific sizes of the capacitors in the Pioneer SC-35 and the SC-37?
What are the specific sizes of the capacitors in the Pioneer SC-55 and the SC-57?
Example: 27,000uF/75V capacitor, you know what I mean, right
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Why is this important and why is this cross posted in the SC-37 thread?

How was that wrong of me to ask? Was I snotty? Rude? I simply wanted to understand the reasoning behind his question, and how it applied to both units, not what the specs imply or how they relate to amp performance..

And he still hasn't answered my original question.. which is his right..

Am I not allow to ask why a cross post?

I share most of the other comments in your reply to my post... consumers should be able to gauge whether or not they do business with a company based on any number of factors, and you pointed out a few that are fairly important to some and not to others..

My suggestion to him about the service manual was just that.. a suggestion if that information wasn't readily available and really important for him to know..

I suspect you are right that this might become a business of less choice, as is evidenced by what has happened in the CE world over the last 10 years... it will only get more compacted, less specialized, and those choices for consumers who want high quality AV gear will dwindle..

If audio777 isn't satisfied with his experiences with Pioneer CS he can do what we are all free to do.. vote with his wallet.

Just my .02.. and thanks for the well thought out post.
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post #283 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

...At least in the A/B world the information could help to uncover the reality of the amps ability to deal with transients. Fair enough if he wants to know - he's the customer.

When you consider that the all the mainstream AV electronics such as Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon etc all seem to be gutting their amp sections and hiding it with blatantly fudged performance data, I just cant blame the guy for asking.

I agree with your post. In my own case, I really did try to learn all I could about the guts, major system components & functionality when I bought both Pioneer's 59Txi & then SC-09. Someone was nice enough to get me a copy of the service manuals but there's lot of info available if you dig. Learning about what's in it was part of the joy of ownership, but that's just me. Others are completely content not knowing these things & just want to learn how to use & enjoy it.

As an aside, though, at least in the AVSForum, there is a tendency for fanboyism to negate objectivity when boosters of certain brands (say Emotiva ) are presented with inconvenient facts. Like how their 5 channel amp with the same size trannie/caps can possibly have the identical power rating as their 2 channel amp. People generally don't want the truth when they've already decided on something or bought it. They will argue to the cows come home that all that doesn't matter...if Emotiva says it'll do 200 watts then it'll do it

In their view, the science doesn't matter, audio might as well be faith-based, kind of like creationism

I do agree with FilmMixer that you can get caught up too much in the world of specs, components, etc and let that interfere with deciding on gear based on other factors. All is important, the objective and the emotional likes and value we put on gear, its "soul" if you will.

Steve
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post #284 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 07:45 PM
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you can google or look on audiogon for them. They have conventional power supplies, with massive caps, mated up with digital amps.

What effect it has I has on sound quality I have no idea except it seems increase its ability to sump loads of current.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
I hope you guys asking about this realize that you can't compare the capacitor & power supplies used between class A/B amps and class D amps - that's a meaningless comparison

Your example of the VSX-5x series are all class A/B amps. Class D amps do not need the same capacitor "capacity" or same power supplies as they are pulsing the power on/off very rapidly at full power vs. keeping it on all the time, varying its amplitude and wasting a lot as heat.

As long as you realize those 2 comparisons are meaningless, then asking how these new amps compare to the previous class D Icepower amps may be an OK comparison

If you get an answer from Pioneer, please post.

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post #285 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 07:59 PM
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FilmMixer, please check your pm's, I had a couple of questions for you. Thanks.
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post #286 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 09:00 PM
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Many, not all, class D designs are fairly power-supply sensitive. Actually, all the amps themselves are, but the better modules/amps also include filtering or regulation to counter that.

Big caps provide the ability to handle longer-term transients so deciding if a cap is "big enough" requires knowledge of the amp design and signal levels.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #287 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 09:07 PM
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FWIW, I don't doubt Pioneer's ratings on the amps in the Elite series. Past units have tested well in reviews, and exceeded RMS ratings (albeit with slightly higher than rated distortion at rated power on all channels but the test gear the reviewers used might have limited resolution) and have even proven to be 4 ohm stable.

As far as capacitor ratings go, as previously stated, it doesn't make sense to compare the current Class D product to the Class AB amps. I haven't tested the power draw on either receiver nor have I measured the temperature but I can tell you that my ancient VSX-26 wasted so much power that it heated the room, and the top of the receiver was always hot, even at low volume. It ran so warm I kept the amp on to minimize heat cycling (to extend life by reducing electromigration, plus some old-school amp designers I know insist it improves sound quality - but I never noticed any difference through my old speakers). The SC-55 has been on all day - I stayed in to watch movies and have had movies playing at moderate volume (volume at -14.0 dB) and the receiver is only warm to the touch. It is obviously wasting a lot less power on the power rail side and I am very pleased with the sound quality so I really don't understand why you need to make that comparison.

As far as I am concerned here is what matters:
  • How good does the system sound?
  • How reliable is it?

The answer to the first point is proving to be excellent. The second will only become apparent over time. Assuming there are not manufacturing flaws (counterfeit caps which are still not out of distribution chains, cold solder joints like the VSX-26TX,VSX-27TX, and VSX-29TX had, etc.) I would expect that if the unit makes it through the first few weeks and doesn't suffer "infant mortality" it will last a long time.

There is a detail you might be concerned about: what are the chances that the lead-free solder they are using will develop tin whiskers? Even that hasn't been as much of an issue as predicted, but it has still only been a few years since RoHS guidelines have been in effect.
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post #288 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 09:17 PM
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The SC-57 are selling fast on ebay. I guess people aren't too concerned about the Pioneer warrenty from these resellers.
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post #289 of 4004 Old 08-21-2011, 11:37 PM
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What is the actual frequency response of theese new amps ?
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post #290 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimvette View Post

FWIW, I don't doubt Pioneer's ratings on the amps in the Elite series. Past units have tested well in reviews, and exceeded RMS ratings (

For one thing, I don't know how one could possible summarise a 100% positive outcome on an undefined and unspecific universe of "all".

For another I can off the top of my head recall a review of the VSX-33 in which it put out about half the claimed rating into 5 channels.

Lets face it it these companies that have degraded consumer trust by embarking on an orgy of fudging power ratings. At this level of product we shouldnt have to be discussing this sort of issue actually. One can't lblame the consumer for responding with to clear and ongoing abuse of trust.
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post #291 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 06:36 AM
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I am on the verge of ordering an AVR. I have a Definitive Technology Mythos ST series Home Theater gear, its a 7.1 setup, with THT subwoofers.
On the Mythos ST threads i had been reading all over the pages, that Pioneer elite's Ice Amp technology sounds better with Mythos ST. Not sure how these new amps sound with 55/57.
I was deciding between the Denon 4311CI or the Yamaha Adventage 3010 receivers. I guess 4311ci has room correction features.. not sure of 55/57 has this or not.
Yamaha Adventage has got rave reviews recently, and all the hardcore audiophiles are recommending it.
I will not be replacing my new reciever for next two years or so, hence i wanna make sure of what i am getting before i put my money on it.

What is important to me..
1. HTPC - Most of my time i play movies and music over my home theater personal computer.. so the audio/stereo should be good through PC.
2. BluRay, DishTV etc.
3. Room correction.

What is the major difference between SC-55 and SC-57. There is a price difference of around 600 dollars between both the models... Just wanted to make sure, i am not paying 600 dollars more for SC-57 for the features i am never going to use. The only difference that i see as of now through their specification page is 55 has Select THX, and 57 has Ultra THX, not sure if Ultra THX is any good for the current scenario. Anything else that the 57 has over 55 in terms of real difference in everyday usage??
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post #292 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 09:29 AM
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Anyone here get a chance to look at both the 55 and 57? Are they they exact same chassis? Looking to get the MA faceplate, and I see they have the 55 listed, but not the 57.

Looking over the CAD drawings, it would seem they have the exact same measurements. Just wondering as I've not had a chance to see both.

Thanks
Ed
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post #293 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 09:39 AM
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Anytime I have had an Elite, I only use the onboard amp for the rear surrounds as I have a standalone amp for mains, center, and L&R surrounds.
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post #294 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

For one thing, I don't know how one could possible summarise a 100% positive outcome on an undefined and unspecific universe of "all".

For another I can off the top of my head recall a review of the VSX-33 in which it put out about half the claimed rating into 5 channels.

Lets face it it these companies that have degraded consumer trust by embarking on an orgy of fudging power ratings. At this level of product we shouldnt have to be discussing this sort of issue actually. One can't lblame the consumer for responding with to clear and ongoing abuse of trust.

In a good mood today? Let me clarify what I think he meant to say - the Pioneer SC Elites have done well when tested in regards to what they put out in actual vs. rated power per channels. Please note this does not reference an undefined universe but only the SC Elites produced by Pioneer over the past few years that have been tested.
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post #295 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 12:32 PM
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I know the 57 can power 9 channels, but the manual was unclear if you can hook up an outboard amp to achieve 11.2 via DTS Neo X. Are you forced to choose either height or wide channels or do we have the ability to run both simultaneously with an outboard amp? Thanks.
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post #296 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrod2750 View Post

I know the 57 can power 9 channels, but the manual was unclear if you can hook up an outboard amp to achieve 11.2 via DTS Neo X. Are you forced to choose either height or wide channels or do we have the ability to run both simultaneously with an outboard amp? Thanks.

Is that all? What about people who own a 5.1 or 7.2 setup? I own a 7.2 setup.
Anything else that the 600 dollar upscale tag mark (SC-57) gives me more than SC-55
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post #297 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

Anything else that the 600 dollar upscale tag mark (SC-57) gives me more than SC-55

The MSRP price difference is $400. And, with a tiny bit of research, you can easily compare features yourself.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...le%20Sheet.pdf
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...le%20Sheet.pdf

You might also try the first page in this thread.



AJ
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post #298 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

The MSRP price difference is $400. And, with a tiny bit of research, you can easily compare features yourself.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...le%20Sheet.pdf
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ep...le%20Sheet.pdf

AJ

A reseller named unitedshoppingonline on ebay is selling 57 for around 500 less than 55 kind of confused... if 500-600 dollars is worth the amount to pay for minimal difference.

I am unable to find the difference between "select thx, and ultra thx" hence the question...
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post #299 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post


A reseller named unitedshoppingonline on ebay is selling 57 for around 1600, and 55 for around 1050... kind of confused... if 500-600 dollars is worth the amount to pay for minimal difference.

I am unable to find the difference between "select thx, and ultra thx" hence the question...

The only difference between select and ultra is the size of room they are tested for.

As far as the eBay seller..... I'll just say there are no authorized ways of buying Elite gear online. I recommend buying from an authorized dealer and supporting the business in a positive way. Buying from from unauthorized online sellers only hurts the business.
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post #300 of 4004 Old 08-22-2011, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KVH View Post

The only difference between select and ultra is the size of room they are tested for.

As far as the eBay seller..... I'll just say there are no authorized ways of buying Elite gear online. I recommend buying from an authorized dealer and supporting the business in a positive way. Buying from from unauthorized online sellers only hurts the business.

I've bought my last three Elites from unitedshoppingonline. No issues with units or problems with the company. Yes, do support who you want.
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