Onkyo TX-NR3009 TX-NR5009 Spec's just realesed - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 321 Old 10-12-2011, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

you're lucky... Onkyo won't even talk to me right now... They don't believe i am having problems with the Star Wars blu-ray discs with the DTS HD Master bomb issue...

I had the same issue with the 905( that they just replaced with the 5009)

when playing the Bourne Ultimatum it would "chirp"...and yes the unit had had the DTS update

I recorded the failure on a camera phone and emailed it to their customer relations manager

that was the ONLY way I could get resolution


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post #122 of 321 Old 10-12-2011, 09:01 AM
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Okay, then based on everyone's varying opinions, I have NO idea which way to go myself. According to my "integrator", Denon failed to show up to CEDIA this year and he's "switching all of his customers over to Onkyo", but it looks like there is a fair amount of unhappiness here with the performance of the ONKYO product lines. I am looking at either buying the Onkyo TX-NR5009 or the Denon AVR-4311CI.
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post #123 of 321 Old 10-12-2011, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by chopkins1 View Post

but it looks like there is a fair amount of unhappiness here with the performance of the ONKYO product lines.

It's not so much performance, but reliability. I was a huge Denon fan until the xx5 series of Onkyo came out. I gave them a try and never looked back. They are one of the best performing receivers on the market in my opinion, especially when you factor in the price. It's a tragedy that they ruined their name with some subpar quality control the last couple years. Hopefully this year they redeem themselves. While the 4311 hasn't been without it's issues, it does seem to be the "safer" route right now. I'd wait and see how the xxx9 series shakes out before making a decision if you can.

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post #124 of 321 Old 10-13-2011, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Hello,
While the 4311 is quite nice, I would give the Amplifier edge to the 5009.

I wouldn't discount the 4311 so quickly. According to actual bench tests, it puts out slightly more power than the 5008 in two channel mode: 163 watts @ .1% distortion for the 5008, and 184 watts @ .05 for the 4311.
With five channels driven, the gap is much larger: 80w per channel for the 5008, 120w per channel for the 4311!!!

Here are the sources:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/o...-labs-measures
http://hcc.techradar.com/reviews/new...alent-01-04-11

(These two publications have very similar bench test #'s when they compare the same amps, so it is valid to use them for comparisons)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanii19 View Post

Im having a hard time accepting the 809/1009 is that much better then the denon 4311ci.. Any other comments on this?

IMHO, the *5009* is inferior to the 4311ci, never mind the 1009.

I WAS about to drop coin on the Onkyos over a year ago, because of their vast array of features and THX approval (I had some respect for the THX amp ratings, if nothing else). The lack of 11.2 made me wait, though. After seeing all the failures and the low amp results, I'm glad I held out for the rock-solid, high powered, 11.2, Pro-capable 4311ci. (Damn, now I'm starting to sound like that crazy pro-Onkyo guy earlier in the thread)
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post #125 of 321 Old 10-13-2011, 07:53 AM
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Hello,
The Test Bench scores on the 300x and 500x Onkyo's have simply not made sense. Also, in that HCC Review, the 4311 is rated at 184 Watts while the 5008 measured 170 Watts. However, it is the 5 Channel results that do not make sense with the Integra DTC-50.2 providing this much measured power: Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 110.8 watts
1% distortion at 134.1 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 107.5 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts

Analog frequency response in Direct mode:
-0.05 dB at 10 Hz
-0.01 dB at 20 Hz
-0.01 dB at 20 kHz
-2.80 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with stereo signal processing:
-0.09 dB at 10 Hz
-0.03 dB at 20 Hz
-0.07 dB at 20 kHz
-69.90 dB at 50 kHz



This graph shows that the DTR-50.2's left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 147.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 172.4 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 200.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 259.8 watts.

I simply do not believe that the 50.2 is more powerful than the 3008 or 5008 considering how much larger the Capacitor Banks and Transformers are. And this is saying nothing of what Professional Reviewers going so far as to say they prefer the 5008 to an Outboard Amplifier.
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post #126 of 321 Old 10-13-2011, 08:13 AM
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Audiodork, those are odd results. I've always been under the assumption the Integra models were simply repackaged Onkyos with installer-friendly features added, and a better warranty.

Of course, my main point was that even though it is physically smaller, lighter, runs cooler and doesn't carry THX power certification, the Denon 4311ci actually has MORE POWERFUL amps than ANY of the Onkyo/Integra units.

Now, on a real-world level, I doubt it's enough power to make an audible difference, external amps are needed for that.
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post #127 of 321 Old 10-13-2011, 10:46 AM
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Does any think that the Integra line is any more reliable than it's sibling? I haven't seen nearly as many complaints of Integra failures, but that may only be due to significantly less units out there. The difference in mrsp of the 3009, as 2199, and the 70.3 of 2300, would well be worth it if the reliability and CS were improved.
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post #128 of 321 Old 10-13-2011, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Does any think that the Integra line is any more reliable than it's sibling? I haven't seen nearly as many complaints of Integra failures, but that may only be due to significantly less units out there. The difference in mrsp of the 3009, as 2199, and the 70.3 of 2300, would well be worth it if the reliability and CS were improved.

The Integra's have the same cable problem as the Onkyo. I wouldn't disc. the Onkyo so fast. Other than the cable, myself and most others haven't had any other trouble.

The power ratings in the reviews have to do with measuring techniques. The obvious is Onkyo transformers and capacitors will give better real world performance.

I have had a Denon A100/4311 and the NR5008 side by side. The NR5008 sounded more dynamic. The Denon seemed cheap to me, couldn't wait to get it out of the house.
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post #129 of 321 Old 10-13-2011, 02:10 PM
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Keep in mind that some of the benchmark testing techniques may have put the amplifiers into current protection mode. Pretty much all AV receivers have current limiting in order to get UL listed. Some receivers kick into the protection mode more quickly, but usually those conditions are NOT encountered in real world listening. Typically a multichannel amp is NOT driving a 1kHz sine wave in phase to all channels simultaneously.

I would not be surprised if the testing methods have changed slightly seeing newer lower-end models beat the 5008 on all channels driven. The 300x and 500x Onkyo units have some pretty hefty power supplies inside.

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post #130 of 321 Old 10-14-2011, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

Audiodork, those are odd results. I've always been under the assumption the Integra models were simply repackaged Onkyos with installer-friendly features added, and a better warranty.

Of course, my main point was that even though it is physically smaller, lighter, runs cooler and doesn't carry THX power certification, the Denon 4311ci actually has MORE POWERFUL amps than ANY of the Onkyo/Integra units.

Now, on a real-world level, I doubt it's enough power to make an audible difference, external amps are needed for that.

All Channel Driven Testing is a subject that there are many who believe there are issues with the methodology. Audioholics is especially spurious of ACD Testing. The 50.2 is not much different than the Onkyo it is based off of.

Regardless, I do believe the 3008/5008 is more powerful than both the 50.2 and the 4311. As I have not used the amplification from an AVR in over a decade, I suppose it should not matter to me. However, I do sometimes think about adding DSX Channels run off my 3008.
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post #131 of 321 Old 10-14-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

As I have not used the amplification from an AVR in over a decade, I suppose it should not matter to me. However, I do sometimes think about adding DSX Channels run off my 3008.
Cheers,
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Some folks say the DSX channels have the same volume requirements as the mains, some do not. You might want to look into that before you use your internal amps. Of course, if you are just using two amps, most recievers put out far more power than if they are driving multiple channels, so you may be fine. (Unless you think benchtests are "flawed".... )
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post #132 of 321 Old 10-14-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

Some folks say the DSX channels have the same volume requirements as the mains, some do not. You might want to look into that before you use your internal amps. Of course, if you are just using two amps, most recievers put out far more power than if they are driving multiple channels, so you may be fine. (Unless you think benchtests are "flawed".... )

Hello,
The only testing methodology I question is the All Channels Driven Test. This is not an esoteric viewpoint. There are a great number of Articles about it. Regardless, between my Aragon 8008bb, Parasound HCA-3500, and HCA-2205AT, I do have 9 available channels of amplification. It is just I am using the 3500 in a 2 Channel rig with a pair of Martin Logan Aerius i's and figure whatever Speakers I use for DSX will be not to hard to drive.
Cheers,
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post #133 of 321 Old 10-14-2011, 03:11 PM
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Hello,
As for Home Cinema Choice, after literally hours of looking for Bench Tests of 300x or 500x Onkyo's, I found the February 2010 Review of the TX-NR3007 where it was Bench Tested at 180 Watts into 2 Channels and 5 Channels and 170 Watts "Untainted". So I do think that the 3007/8 and 5007/8 are indeed more powerful.

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post #134 of 321 Old 10-15-2011, 01:42 PM
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Yamaha RX-A3010 vs Onkyo TX-NR5009

I'm trying to decide between these two models, but I haven't heard comparison between two or even detailed reviews yet. I'd certainly appreciate if anyone has seen a good review by users. I already read that German review by the way.
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post #135 of 321 Old 10-15-2011, 10:19 PM
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As far as i know, the Yamaha is not yet available in some countries or just on the verge of being released there. So a review or a comparison probably will take some time.
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post #136 of 321 Old 10-16-2011, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Hello,
As for Home Cinema Choice, after literally hours of looking for Bench Tests of 300x or 500x Onkyo's, I found the February 2010 Review of the TX-NR3007 where it was Bench Tested at 180 Watts into 2 Channels and 5 Channels and 170 Watts "Untainted". So I do think that the 3007/8 and 5007/8 are indeed more powerful.

What did it bench test in 5 channels?
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post #137 of 321 Old 10-16-2011, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper8 View Post

What did it bench test in 5 channels?

Here are some specs I pulled from another forum
While I have not verified all of these numbers( in a specific publication)..the three units that I have looked into, from the list below, were accurate with the test reports I found

Each is given at 5 and 7 channels respectively

8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion

Yamaha RX-Z11 5C/153.2 W 7C/139.4

Pioneer Elite SC-37 5C/135W 7C/125W

Pioneer Elite SC-57 5C/ 115.1W 7C/109.6 W HT Labs Measures

Pioneer Elite SC-27 5C/111.3 W 7C/107.4 W HT Labs Measures

Yamaha RX-V3900 5C/100W 7C/88W

Onkyo TX-NR5008 5C/79W 7C/78W

Denon AVR-4810CI 5C/75W 7C/30W

Yamaha RX-A3000 5C/66W 7C/61W



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post #138 of 321 Old 10-17-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper8 View Post

What did it bench test in 5 channels?

Hello,
In the Home Cinema Choice Issue, the 3007 Measured 180 Watts into 5 Channels and 2 Channels. I suppose I did not make that clear enough in my Post. I spent more time than I want to admit finding a Review with a Bench Test aside from Home Theater Magazine. Something about HT Mag's Testing does not make sense with the 50.2 outputting so much more power than the 5007 or 5008. I just wish I could have found the Review for the 5008 from Home Cinema Choice.
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post #139 of 321 Old 10-17-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Hello,
In the Home Cinema Choice Issue, the 3007 Measured 180 Watts into 5 Channels and 2 Channels. I suppose I did not make that clear enough in my Post. I spent more time than I want to admit finding a Review with a Bench Test aside from Home Theater Magazine. Something about HT Mag's Testing does not make sense with the 50.2 outputting so much more power than the 5007 or 5008. I just wish I could have found the Review for the 5008 from Home Cinema Choice.
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I have a 3007 so that's why I was asking. Very doubtful that it would measure that high. 180 in 2 I could see but not in 5 channels. Heck, the 5007 was only 68 in 5 channels before the protection mode or whatever kicked in.
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post #140 of 321 Old 10-17-2011, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper8 View Post

I have a 3007 so that's why I was asking. Very doubtful that it would measure that high. 180 in 2 I could see but not in 5 channels. Heck, the 5007 was only 68 in 5 channels before the protection mode or whatever kicked in.

And if you look at that review closely it has an asterik regarding 4-ohm mode meaning that rating was probably with the receiver in a current limiting mode.

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post #141 of 321 Old 10-17-2011, 04:43 PM
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Folks,

Just got the 5009 hooked up and running. It sounds much more powerful than my previous AVR (NAD) It's my second Onkyo I had the 805 before, there is no comparison between them.
It is true , the new models have less of a problem with heating, and for now no video/HDMI issues. On top of that the bi-amping of fronts works great for me since I have only 7C.
Does anybody know if the 12V output trigger can be programmed for some functions only ?
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post #142 of 321 Old 10-19-2011, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

And if you look at that review closely it has an asterik regarding 4-ohm mode meaning that rating was probably with the receiver in a current limiting mode.

Exactly. When you look at how well the 805/875/905 Measured, I do think that both Series are capable of at least 100 Watts into 5 Channels.

I brought up the 3007's Lab Results because they were from the exact same Magazine as the one that Tested the AVR-4311 and where the assertion was made that the 4311 was more powerful than both the 3000 and 5000 Series which is something I do not believe to be the case.
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post #143 of 321 Old 10-19-2011, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ricci1220 View Post

Folks,

Just got the 5009 hooked up and running. It sounds much more powerful than my previous AVR (NAD) It's my second Onkyo I had the 805 before, there is no comparison between them.
It is true , the new models have less of a problem with heating, and for now no video/HDMI issues. On top of that the bi-amping of fronts works great for me since I have only 7C.
Does anybody know if the 12V output trigger can be programmed for some functions only ?

I currently have an onkyo 5007 and user an external gemstone 7 ch amp. I have tried using zone 2 and 3 for a 12 volt trigger to the amp. It is a pain in the butt. I am currently looking to get a new receiver I have crossed onkyo off the list since for some unknown reason they can not seem to find a spot on the back of the receiver for that very large 12 volt hole. I have a 9.2 system and use 2 of the onkyos amps for the rear surround ,( thats why i dont just use the more expensive for less onkyo pre pro) It is inexcusible that they ommit the trigger. $500 receivers have 12 volt triggers.

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post #144 of 321 Old 10-19-2011, 02:14 PM
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If you got power amps already, why not go for the 5509, it has a zone 1 trigger and is less expensive than the 5009...
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post #145 of 321 Old 10-20-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

If you got power amps already, why not go for the 5509, it has a zone 1 trigger and is less expensive than the 5009...

Since i have a good amp i would likely go with the 3009. Also i have a 9.2 system so i use 2 channels from the receivers amp section.

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post #146 of 321 Old 10-20-2011, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan webster View Post

I currently have an onkyo 5007 and user an external gemstone 7 ch amp. I have tried using zone 2 and 3 for a 12 volt trigger to the amp. It is a pain in the butt. I am currently looking to get a new receiver I have crossed onkyo off the list since for some unknown reason they can not seem to find a spot on the back of the receiver for that very large 12 volt hole. I have a 9.2 system and use 2 of the onkyos amps for the rear surround ,( thats why i dont just use the more expensive for less onkyo pre pro) It is inexcusible that they ommit the trigger. $500 receivers have 12 volt triggers.

Hello,
Unfortunately it is a Feature they purposely leave out to give customers a justification for spending far more on an almost identical Integra equivalent. That aside, I do prefer the Hidden Door and Black Volume Knob on the Onkyo variant. I also use Amplifiers for all channels, but never turn off my Amplifiers.
However, I do realize it is a glaring omission.
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post #147 of 321 Old 10-23-2011, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

If you got power amps already, why not go for the 5509, it has a zone 1 trigger and is less expensive than the 5009...

+1

I never understand buying an AVR and then using it as a preamp when there a few preamp selections available...from a few different brands in the same mid price category

On another note...my 5009 is still sitting in the box in my garage from the buyback 905 incident from Onkyo

has anyone listened to the new xx09series?...and can offer any feedback on what differences they offer from the xx08..other than a different look

I run a 5508 preamp( in my main room) and have a had several other Onkyo's over the past few years..so I am very familiar with the older models


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post #148 of 321 Old 10-23-2011, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper8 View Post

I have a 3007 so that's why I was asking. Very doubtful that it would measure that high. 180 in 2 I could see but not in 5 channels. Heck, the 5007 was only 68 in 5 channels before the protection mode or whatever kicked in.

I really doubt it could bench 180 watts in 2 channels

I don't think I have ever seen receiver that could do that

that falls into the area of a good separate amp

curiously?

why are separate amps( generally speaking) rated closer to what they actually bench than receivers are?

I see receivers..THX ultra rated...like the 3008/5008..bench like 66-80 watts with all channels driven

Then you see a multichannel amp...say a midprice Rotel or Sherbourn...rated at, or near, the same wattage as the receivers...but then they actually bench their published wattage ratings with all channels driven

Admittedly the older Onkyo's did better...the newer ones not so much

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post #149 of 321 Old 10-23-2011, 05:38 AM
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The argument in preference of an AVR instead of a pre amp seems to be:
if an external power amp fails you still got the internal one to use.

I paid less for my 5509 than for the 5009, i got just before. Therefor i returned the 5009, because i have a selection of more powerful multichannel amps to use.
I am waiting for an upcoming test of the 5509 after the 5009 has been tested / reviewed already. I still think that the preamp does have better driver stages ensuring higher SQ.
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post #150 of 321 Old 10-23-2011, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

The argument in preference of an AVR instead of a pre amp seems to be:
if an external power amp fails you still got the internal one to use.

I paid less for my 5509 than for the 5009, i got just before. Therefor i returned the 5009, because i have a selection of more powerful multichannel amps to use.
I am waiting for upcoming test of the 5509 after the 5009 has been tested / reviewed already. I still think that the preamp does have a better driver stage ensuring higher SQ.

hmm

well I have not seen receiver amp section that could compare to even a mid price separate amp

so....IMO...that would be something used until you had your amp fixed or replaced

Plus the fact that you are more likely to have preamp issues than amp issues

In regards to Onkyo products:

you have to go preamp to have Audessey pro capability?


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