The "official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A710/810/1010/2010/3010 thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum

AVS Forum > Audio > Receivers, Amps, and Processors > The "official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A710/810/1010/2010/3010 thread

Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
11:55 AM Liked: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

And you are still over looking this fact:
Sensitivity is quoted at 88dB/w which is respectable, although the fact that impedance is given as four to eight ohms leads us to suspect that the figure quoted is more likely to be into four ohms, rather than eight.

Being there was nothing wrong with the Marantz, you should have kept it. Too late now. So you either get a power amp or you get another Marantz AVR, maybe a top end Denon.

Yes, I will definitely be looking at a receiver that can handle these speakers properly.

Can you link me to this review so I can present it when I speak with my dealer and XTZ?
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
12:03 PM Liked: 74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

Yes, I will definitely be looking at a receiver that can handle these speakers properly.

Can you link me to this review so I can present it when I speak with my dealer and XTZ?

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...-963635/review

More of that review:
The negatives of the XTZ are relatively small. The extremely high resolution does mean that the 99.26 is unforgiving of poor recordings and will also show up limitations in sources and amplifiers. Although it costs £670, it really ought to be partnered with an amp that costs rather more.
That amp will also need to be relatively powerful, as the 99.26 does seem to be somewhat insensitive.



Although I don't know why you are so against using a power amp to drive 4u load. Very few people who have 4u speakers expect to drive them to reference levels with an AVR.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...-963635/review

Although I don't know why you are so against using a power amp to drive 4u load. Very few people who have 4u speakers expect to drive them to reference levels with an AVR.

Still not convinced they are 4ohm until XTZ tells me they are.

If I am to get an external power amp I'll just get a cheaper receiver then with the same functions but a smaller amp than the RX-A3010. No point wasting money on this receiver if I will get an external amp anyway.

Just played in 2.1 mode, which is my active sub and my 99.26 (80hz cut off). Played at +3db, no problems. Turned on surround (ie, my rear 93.21 will play too) and it died instantly.
Ski_EX5's Avatar Ski_EX5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

Yes, I will definitely be looking at a receiver that can handle these speakers properly.

I really think it's just a matter of configuring the receiver for the load of YOUR speakers. I have an RX-A3000 (not a 3010). My own speakers are an SVSound 5.1 setup with MTS-02 towers, PB13 Ultra sub, and MBS-02 rears. The MTS-02 towers, rated at 4 ohms nominal, are almost certainly lower impedance than your speakers. I have my RX-A3000 set to the "6 ohm" load setting. This setup works wonderfully for me, and is capable of creating ear splitting sound levels without stressing the receiver or the speakers (though keep in mind my sub has its own 1000 watt amp). It's so loud that I configured the max sound level on the RX-A3000 at "0 db".

I'd recommend giving the 6 ohm setting a try. It's easy. It won't cost you anything. It may save you from having to exchange your receiver (possibly multiple times), and/or purchase an additional external amp. Most importantly, it may make you a happy person!
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
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^^^^+1 That was brought up earlier, but the op rejected the idea. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Yes, using an AVR with a smaller internal amp would be good, if connecting a power amp.
Just make sure that cheaper AVR has preouts. That is one reason I've steered away from the latest HKs. Of their last 6 AVRs, only the 3600 has preouts.

But don't except that speaker company to tell you the truth about the true ohms.
If they are being honest, they will tell you to use a power amp. I would trust an independent review of specs before I would trust published specs by the manufacturer.

Its rather like many AVRs, amps that are OVER rated. I read about one amp that was suppose to be 250 wpc. But when I looked at the specs, it was 250w w/one channel driven. With two channels driven it was only 180w. A full 70w less.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
12:32 PM Liked: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski_EX5 View Post

I really think it's just a matter of configuring the receiver for the load of YOUR speakers. I have an RX-A3000 (not a 3010). My own speakers are an SVSound 5.1 setup with MTS-02 towers, PB13 Ultra sub, and MBS-02 rears. The MTS-02 towers, rated at 4 ohms nominal, are almost certainly lower impedance than your speakers. I have my RX-A3000 set to the "6 ohm" load setting. This setup works wonderfully for me, and is capable of creating ear splitting sound levels without stressing the receiver or the speakers (though keep in mind my sub has its own 1000 watt amp). It's so loud that I configured the max sound level on the RX-A3000 at "0 db".

I'd recommend giving the 6 ohm setting a try. It's easy. It won't cost you anything. It may save you from having to exchange your receiver (possibly multiple times), and/or purchase an additional external amp. Most importantly, it may make you a happy person!

Tried 6ohm, died just as easily.
RTROSE's Avatar RTROSE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

All I know is the speakers are 8ohm. They work with 4-8ohm load.

And those numbers are ******** but regardless I don't really care. If this receiver is ****** enough to not work properly I'm going to return it and get my money back and buy a proper receiver. As I said, the Onkyo (old as ****) did not die neither did my Marantz SR6006. I just spoke with a guy who has a Yamaha RX-V3067 with different speakers, same **** happens to him. Another dude has the same problem. Seems to be common with Yamaha.

STAY AWAY unless you're well aware of this issue. Seems to be quite wide spread. I'll definitely have a talk with my dealer first thing tomorrow.

I don't see how you make this jump/conclusion as I have been along for the ride since the start of this thread and I just don't see this as a common problem. I am sorry that you are having issues and I understand the frustration when our electronics don't work, trust me I know. But I digress. You may just have a defective unit PERIOD. But you need to know that are trying to do the equivalent of running Honda Accord around the Nurburgring race track like you would a Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari. You are asking for performance that just is not there. Have you tried setting the receivers ohm load to different levels to see if the problem is still there? If it works then what does it matter? I don't rely on the wattage claims of any of the receiver manufactures as they are bloated and optimistic and under "ideal" conditions. That is why I just went with an external amp to begin with (Emotiva XPA-3) so I would not have to worry.

Oh, and +2 on the volume is VERY VERY loud. Now mind you I'm not saying that listening at that volume is TOO loud by any means if that is what you like who am I to say different, but that being said you are driving your unit very hard at those listening levels. The unit protecting itself buy shutting down is much better than turning itself into a melted smoking pile of useless metal and plastic that you can't do anything with.

Good luck, keep us posted and I hope you can find a solution to your situation.

Regards,

RTROSE
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

I don't see how you make this jump/conclusion as I have been along for the ride since the start of this thread and I just don't see this as a common problem. I am sorry that you are having issues and I understand the frustration when our electronics don't work, trust me I know. But I digress. You may just have a defective unit PERIOD. But you need to know that are trying to do the equivalent of running Honda Accord around the Nurburgring race track like you would a Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari. You are asking for performance that just is not there. Have you tried setting the receivers ohm load to different levels to see if the problem is still there? If it works then what does it matter? I don't rely on the wattage claims of any of the receiver manufactures as they are bloated and optimistic and under "ideal" conditions. That is why I just went with an external amp to begin with (Emotiva XPA-3) so I would not have to worry.

Oh, and +2 on the volume is VERY VERY loud. Now mind you I'm not saying that listening at that volume is TOO loud by any means if that is what you like who am I to say different, but that being said you are driving your unit very hard at those listening levels. The unit protecting itself buy shutting down is much better than turning itself into a melted smoking pile of useless metal and plastic that you can't do anything with.

Good luck, keep us posted and I hope you can find a solution to your situation.

Regards,

RTROSE

I tried different ohm-settings, same result.

There are 3 other people at another forum who have the same issue. They claim that Yamaha is very sensitive to this kind of stuff and shuts down very easily.

And if the receiver can't handle it it should not support it. Sounds very weird. There's a guy in here who listens to stuff at +6db.

That said, why does it only die when my rear speakers start playing, too? When my fronts are playing (the 99.26) it has no problem, even at super high listening levels.
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

Just played in 2.1 mode, which is my active sub and my 99.26 (80hz cut off). Played at +3db, no problems. Turned on surround (ie, my rear 93.21 will play too) and it died instantly.

That is typical of multi-channel amps in AVRs.
They work fine, at rated levels, when only driving two channels. But when you are driving all channels the power to each is going to drop.

From what I've found, the 3010 is 150w~8u and 230w~4u. So its not doubling down. If its a true 230w then it should be good. But your speakers are only rated @ 88db while mostly operating @ 4u. That is NOT a good combo=not an easy load to drive at reference.
I would go along with that review I linked to and buy a good power amp. As if you replace the 3010 for a cheaper AVR, up to you.


I just looked at the 93.21, the specs:
Power handling: 100 watts short term
Terminals: Gold plated (Banana/Pole)
Efficiency: 88dB

That 100w(short term) might be what is causing the shut down, if the 3010 is really putting out 230w. I take the wording short term to mean peak power not continuous power.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

That is typical of multi-channel amps in AVRs.
They work fine, at rated levels, when only driving two channels. But when you are driving all channels the power to each is going to drop.

From what I've found, the 3010 is 150w~8u and 230w~4u. So its not doubling down. If its a true 230w then it should be good. But your speakers are only rated @ 88db while mostly operating @ 4u. That is NOT a good combo=not an easy load to drive at reference.
I would go along with that review I linked to and buy a good power amp. As if you replace the 3010 for a cheaper AVR, up to you.

What type of power amp should I be looking at? What power ratings etc etc?

And I might aswell drop down to a Denon AVR-3312 or something along those lines, no need for a monster like 3010 if I'm not going to be using that power.
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

What type of power amp should I be looking at? What power ratings etc etc?

And I might aswell drop down to a Denon AVR-3312 or something along those lines, no need for a monster like 3010 if I'm not going to be using that power.

I just added info about the 93.21 the same time as your latest post. So right now I can't say if its the amp or the surround speakers causing the shut down.
Do you have any other speakers you can use in place of the 93.21? If so connect them to the surround channels and give it a try. If the 3010 does not shut down in 5 channel, then you will know the 93.21s are the problem.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I just added info about the 93.21 the same time as your latest post. So right now I can't say if its the amp or the surround speakers causing the shut down.
Do you have any other speakers you can use in place of the 93.21? If so connect them to the surround channels and give it a try. If the 3010 does not shut down in 5 channel, then you will know the 93.21s are the problem.

I have no other speakers, no, sorry. It shuts down in 8ohm and 6ohm.

So you mean that the speakers only take 100w and when the amp gives out more power it shuts down to not damage itself/the speakers?

Note that even at super high levels, the rear speakers hardly output any sound - yet the amp dies.
RTROSE's Avatar RTROSE
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^^^^That is very interesting. How is the temp of your unit? Is it getting extremely warm or hot? That might be another issue. With my 1010 I have not had any heat issues as I use the XPA-3 to drive the mains and the Yammie to drive the surrounds.

I would try another unit if you can to make sure your unit is not defective and see what happens. It is strange that you have not had any issues until you switched to the 3010. Is your amp configuration correct in the setup? I know at first I was having issues with my surrounds until I went in and picked a amp configuration that matched my setup.

As others have stated you just may have to resort to a separate amp to properly feed your speakers.

Regards,

RTROSE
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

I have no other speakers, no, sorry. It shuts down in 8ohm and 6ohm.

So you mean that the speakers only take 100w and when the amp gives out more power it shuts down to not damage itself/the speakers?

Note that even at super high levels, the rear speakers hardly output any sound - yet the amp dies.

I am basically guess-a-mating. I'm going off what you tell me.
The speakers are rated 100w short term; their words not mine.
And if a receiver shuts down, its going into protection mode.
The only time I have that happen was in '79 using a Yamaha CA2010 amp. I was playing the 1812 Overture. If you are familiar with it, you know the recording starts out very very low db. And then increases volume as it plays through the entire length. So I had it cranked to the 12 o'clock position as soon as it got to the canon blasts the 2010 shut down for about 5 sec.
I reduced the VC to about 11 o'clock and never had that problem again.

But as you do not have a problem in stereo, that leaves two possibilities. Either the amp or the surround speakers causing the amp to shut down. And the only way to find out which it is, would be to temp connect another set of speakers.

The published facts, the 93.21 rated 100w max peak and the 3010 rated 230w~4u. And that the shutdown only happens when the surrounds are being used, would suggest its the surrounds. But again, only a guess.
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
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I would go along with RT, something is defective. Maybe the 3010, maybe the 93.21s.
Only replacing one at a time, can you narrow down the problem.

As you do not have any other speakers to change to. Connect the 93.21s to the front channels and play in stereo mode. if the 3010 shuts down, then you know its the speakers. If it does not, then it would seem the surround channels on the 3010 are at fault.
Or as RT was saying, something might be wrong in the AVR's setup menu.
JDEaston's Avatar JDEaston
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I may have missed it if you have already answered it but have you ruled out the possibility of a short somewhere in the wiring? It sounds like there may be a short or reverse polarity at your rear speakers. I've pushed lesser Yamaha recievers with a 4ohm load at 0 to +5db for 2 hours at a time in 7ch stereo with no issues. Unless there is a short or you have a defective unit you shouldn't be having this problem after only a few minutes of use.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I am basically guess-a-mating. I'm going off what you tell me.
The speakers are rated 100w short term; their words not mine.
And if a receiver shuts down, its going into protection mode.
The only time I have that happen was in '79 using a Yamaha CA2010 amp. I was playing the 1812 Overture. If you are familiar with it, you know the recording starts out very very low db. And then increases volume as it plays through the entire length. So I had it cranked to the 12 o'clock position as soon as it got to the canon blasts the 2010 shut down for about 5 sec.
I reduced the VC to about 11 o'clock and never had that problem again.

But as you do not have a problem in stereo, that leaves two possibilities. Either the amp or the surround speakers causing the amp to shut down. And the only way to find out which it is, would be to temp connect another set of speakers.

The published facts, the 93.21 rated 100w max peak and the 3010 rated 230w~4u. And that the shutdown only happens when the surrounds are being used, would suggest its the surrounds. But again, only a guess.

Thats 100w in 8ohm, not 4ohm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDEaston View Post

I may have missed it if you have already answered it but have you ruled out the possibility of a short somewhere in the wiring? It sounds like there may be a short or reverse polarity at your rear speakers. I've pushed lesser Yamaha recievers with a 4ohm load at 0 to +5db for 2 hours at a time in 7ch stereo with no issues. Unless there is a short or you have a defective unit you shouldn't be having this problem after only a few minutes of use.

No short and polarity is correct on all cables, I have triple-checked that. The problem occurs INSTANTLY, not after a few minutes.
maxleung's Avatar maxleung
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Shutdowns seems to be a common complaint for the yammies - at least from reviews on amazon and newegg. I recall a couple of reviewers replaced the AVR (instead of giving up) and that resolved it. Could be a faulty overload sensor?

Also, I assume the latest (1.08 for the 2010 anyways) firmware is installed.

I wonder if trying a different power outlet could help...but probably not.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

^^^^That is very interesting. How is the temp of your unit? Is it getting extremely warm or hot? That might be another issue. With my 1010 I have not had any heat issues as I use the XPA-3 to drive the mains and the Yammie to drive the surrounds.

I would try another unit if you can to make sure your unit is not defective and see what happens. It is strange that you have not had any issues until you switched to the 3010. Is your amp configuration correct in the setup? I know at first I was having issues with my surrounds until I went in and picked a amp configuration that matched my setup.

As others have stated you just may have to resort to a separate amp to properly feed your speakers.

Regards,

RTROSE

It's on a table, with nothing surrounding it. Completely ventilated. It's hot to the touch, but nowhere near as hot as my Onkyo for example. It's nothing serious compared to my previous receivers, completely normal.

I have configured it properly, unless I have missed any settings. Want me to post any specific settings I am currently using?
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Shutdowns seems to be a common complaint for the yammies - at least from reviews on amazon and newegg. I recall a couple of reviewers replaced the AVR (instead of giving up) and that resolved it. Could be a faulty overload sensor?

Also, I assume the latest (1.08 for the 2010 anyways) firmware is installed.

I wonder if trying a different power outlet could help...but probably not.

Most recent firmware - check.

Different outlets in the same room and other parts of the house - check

Error remaining? - Yep
JDEaston's Avatar JDEaston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

Thats 100w in 8ohm, not 4ohm.

No short and polarity is correct on all cables, I have triple-checked that. The problem occurs INSTANTLY, not after a few minutes.

Have you checked the internal speaker wiring? There could also be a short there too, I had that happen once and it eventually cooked the first receiver I ever owned. It wasn't until I bought a new reciever and ypao kept telling me that speakers polarity was reversed, I opened it up and found the problem. That's not a common scenario I know, but it is possible.

If that's not it I would contact Yamaha and ask for a repair or replacement. Even power hungry speakers shouldn't cause clipping as fast and as often as you are saying.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDEaston View Post

Have you checked the internal speaker wiring? There could also be a short there too, I had that happen once and of eventually cooked the first receiver I ever owned. It wasn't until I bought a new reciever and ypao kept telling that speakers polarity was reversed, I opened it up and found the problem. That's not a common scenario I know, but it is possible.

If that's not it I would contact Yamaha and ask for a repair or replacement. Even power hungry speakers shouldn't cause clipping as fast and as often as you are saying.

I'm not opening my speakers up, that'd void warranty. They have worked fine before so there should not be any problems. And if there was a short circuit this would happen at -50db and +5db... Should not make a difference.

YPAO does not complain about polarity or anything. Works like a charm and sets my speakers up beautifully.
JDEaston's Avatar JDEaston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

I'm not opening my speakers up, that'd void warranty. They have worked fine before so there should not be any problems. And if there was a short circuit this would happen at -50db and +5db... Should not make a difference.

YPAO does not complain about polarity or anything. Works like a charm and sets my speakers up beautifully.

A short doesn't always introduce clipping at low levels, at least it didn't in my case. If you have ruled out everything else it sounds like your avr is likely defective. I would still suggest connecting different speakers to rule out that the problem isn't with the speakers your using.

If neither the avr or speakers turn out to be defective then you likely won't be able to listen at the levels you want with any modern avr.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDEaston View Post

A short doesn't always introduce clipping at low levels, at least it didn't in my case. If you have ruled out everything else it sounds like your avr is likely defective. I would still suggest connecting different speakers to rule out that the problem isn't with the speakers your using.

If neither the avr or speakers turn out to be defective then you likely won't be able to listen at the levels you want with any modern avr.

Right.

I will try running the rear as fronts tomorrow and see how that works out. If the AVR still dies then there's something wrong with the speaker-AVR combination. If that works, the Surround-terminals or something in the AVR is broken.
cr136124's Avatar cr136124
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@ Lindrian

Where are you located? More than happy to bring one of my amps at your place, so you can test it without having to put any money and ordering one.

By the way, I have the RX-A1010 and it is working without issues. So, as mentioned by others, it might be just a situation in which you have a defective receiver. I will try to have a replacement unit, so you can really enjoy all the great stuff this units offers.

Anyway, let me know.
Lindrian's Avatar Lindrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

@ Lindrian

Where are you located? More than happy to bring one of my amps at your place, so you can test it without having to put any money and ordering one.

By the way, I have the RX-A1010 and it is working without issues. So, as mentioned by others, it might be just a situation in which you have a defective receiver. I will try to have a replacement unit, so you can really enjoy all the great stuff this units offers.

Anyway, let me know.

Thats a very nice and touching offer. Amazing people like you still exist :-)!

However, I live in Sweden and unless you do so too, it's highly unlikely this will work out hehe.
cr136124's Avatar cr136124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

However, I live in Sweden and unless you do so too, it's highly unlikely this will work out hehe.

I'm in Georgia, USA and I just missed the next flight to Sweden....

So, it will be the next time!

I really hope you are able to review this issue with your seller and hopefully they will manage to give you a replacement unit. I'm almost positive that you will enjoy the A3010. Or at least, you will be 100% sure that for whatever the reason the Yamaha doesn't play nice with your speakers and of course you will have to switch to a different brand (last resource). Just don't give up on the Yammy yet!

Take care!
rdgrimes's Avatar rdgrimes
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Defective amp protections circuits are not unheard of with Yamaha, so maybe replacing the AVR might be worthwhile. If it was bought at a dealer, maybe they can reproduce the issue there with a 5.1 system.
4DHD's Avatar 4DHD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

Thats 100w in 8ohm, not 4ohm.

I am NOT talking about the amp. The surround speakers are rated 100w max peak output. The speaker is the load of 4~8u. And the load is determined by the frequency being reproduced. If the speaker is showing 8u the amp runs easier; if the speaker is showing 4u, then the amp runs harder.

It could be a mis-match of speaker/amp. But its starting to sound more like a problem with the AVR's surround circuit. So if you switch the wires to the surround speakers so they are the main L/R and it works, then it has to be the AVR.
gce's Avatar gce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindrian View Post

Most recent firmware - check.

Different outlets in the same room and other parts of the house - check

Error remaining? - Yep

The first thing I would do if I'd tried everything is to call Yamaha!
Tags: Yamaha Rx A710bl Receiver , Yamaha Rx A810bl Receiver , Yamaha Rx A1010bl Receiver , Yamaha Rx A2010 Receiver , Yamaha Rx A3010 Receiver , Receivers Amplifiers

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