Integra DHC-80.3 - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 4288 Old 12-26-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyN View Post

Thanks for the suggestions guys but no go. Still kaput. Back in the box it goes.

aww that sucks! Are you going to do a swap? or go with something else?

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post #512 of 4288 Old 12-26-2011, 10:32 AM
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I really like the XT32 so I'm sticking with it unless my dealer really really discounts a Classe SSP 800. Unlikely. I really like the Integra so far.
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post #513 of 4288 Old 12-26-2011, 11:57 AM
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Thats cool, let us know how it works out getting your replacement unit!

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post #514 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 07:30 AM
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Thank you for the reply.

My question however is regarding the 80.3's ability to take a streamed DSD SACD from the transport and process direcly to analog, without first converting to PCM. Very few processors currently on the market can perform this.

My Pioneer SC37 for instance, accepts the streamed DSD SACD from my Oppo, but first the Pioneer 37's internal processor first converts it to PCM, presumaly to apply MACCC.

My question has anyone performed a A/B comparion on the sonic benifits of the 80.3's ability to take a streamed DSD SACD signal and convert it directly to analog (bypassing the PCM conversion)?

There is a great deal of debate on the sonic benifits of this.

Thank you.
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post #515 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 07:51 AM
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From following the PS3/SACD Ripper issue, I have read that only some high-end standalone DACs work with native DSD and don't do an interim PCM conversion. I don't know if nosebleed pre/pros have those kinds of DAC's, but I am sure that they will never make it into a consumer product. I don't question the benefits, just the economics.

Jeff


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post #516 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence1 View Post

Thank you for the reply.

My question however is regarding the 80.3's ability to take a streamed DSD SACD from the transport and process direcly to analog, without first converting to PCM. Very few processors currently on the market can perform this.

My Pioneer SC37 for instance, accepts the streamed DSD SACD from my Oppo, but first the Pioneer 37's internal processor first converts it to PCM, presumaly to apply MACCC.

My question has anyone performed a A/B comparion on the sonic benifits of the 80.3's ability to take a streamed DSD SACD signal and convert it directly to analog (bypassing the PCM conversion)?

There is a great deal of debate on the sonic benifits of this.

Thank you.

Ahh gotcha. Sorry I have no idea.
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post #517 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence1 View Post

Thank you for the reply.

My question however is regarding the 80.3's ability to take a streamed DSD SACD from the transport and process direcly to analog, without first converting to PCM. Very few processors currently on the market can perform this.

My Pioneer SC37 for instance, accepts the streamed DSD SACD from my Oppo, but first the Pioneer 37's internal processor first converts it to PCM, presumaly to apply MACCC.

My question has anyone performed a A/B comparion on the sonic benifits of the 80.3's ability to take a streamed DSD SACD signal and convert it directly to analog (bypassing the PCM conversion)?

There is a great deal of debate on the sonic benifits of this.

Thank you.

I am a heavy duty classical music listener via SACD on an 80.2, not 80.3. My Oppo Bdp-93 streams DSD, and there is a "DSD direct" mode in the Integras to convert DSD to analog without any intervening PCM. My opinion: thumbs down.

In Mch, which is primarily how I listen from discretely recorded Mch SACD's, bypassing DSP means not only no Audyssey XT/32, but no speaker distance correction and no bass management. So, unless you have 5 identical, equidistant full range speakers in a professionally treated room, it's a non-starter. There is no way that "pure DSD" is going to come out on top.

But, I have tried it in stereo, as well. Again, thumbs down. To me, it's not close. "Pure DSD" is one of the most mythical and most overrated concepts in audio, IMHO. Just so that you know, I go to about 2 dozen live classical concerts/year to "calibrate" my ear/brain.

Also, an Oppo 83/Integra 9.8 with XT, not XT/32, with a Pro calibration utterly demolished an Audio Research/Esoteric "pure DSD" setup in recording reviewer Andy Quint's system several years ago.
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post #518 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I am a heavy duty classical music listener via SACD on an 80.2, not 80.3. My Oppo Bdp-93 streams DSD, and there is a "DSD direct" mode in the Integras to convert DSD to analog without any intervening PCM. My opinion: thumbs down.

In Mch, which is primarily how I listen from discretely recorded Mch SACD's, bypassing DSP means not only no Audyssey XT/32, but no speaker distance correction and no bass management. So, unless you have 5 identical, equidistant full range speakers in a professionally treated room, it's a non-starter. There is no way that "pure DSD" is going to come out on top.

One should point out that the Oppo-93 (and its brethren) has its own distance and level correction, which it applies *only* to analog out, for this very reason. I grab these numbers from my Integra 9.9's auto-calibration, and plug them into the Oppo.

Quote:


But, I have tried it in stereo, as well. Again, thumbs down. To me, it's not close. "Pure DSD" is one of the most mythical and most overrated concepts in audio, IMHO. Just so that you know, I go to about 2 dozen live classical concerts/year to "calibrate" my ear/brain.

Also, an Oppo 83/Integra 9.8 with XT, not XT/32, with a Pro calibration utterly demolished an Audio Research/Esoteric "pure DSD" setup in recording reviewer Andy Quint's system several years ago.

The only reason I use analog for SACD Multi-Channel is because I prefer my rear speaker pair for music to my side speakers, which are adaptive bipolar and are designed to make a diffuse sound field instead of a point source.

See profile for new equipment list
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post #519 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

From following the PS3/SACD Ripper issue, I have read that only some high-end standalone DACs work with native DSD and don't do an interim PCM conversion. I don't know if nosebleed pre/pros have those kinds of DAC's, but I am sure that they will never make it into a consumer product. I don't question the benefits, just the economics.

Jeff

Off the top of my head, a mid-priced prepro is much more likely to be able to accept DSD than is a typical "nosebleed" prepro. This is probably because the former completes on the basis of its feature set and performance while the latter competes on the basis of reputation, construction/design quality and performance.

Of course, a lot of this is moot because, in order for any of them to employ their DSP features, a conversion to PCM is necessary anyway. So?

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post #520 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I am a heavy duty classical music listener via SACD on an 80.2, not 80.3. My Oppo Bdp-93 streams DSD, and there is a "DSD direct" mode in the Integras to convert DSD to analog without any intervening PCM. My opinion: thumbs down.

In Mch, which is primarily how I listen from discretely recorded Mch SACD's, bypassing DSP means not only no Audyssey XT/32, but no speaker distance correction and no bass management. So, unless you have 5 identical, equidistant full range speakers in a professionally treated room, it's a non-starter. There is no way that "pure DSD" is going to come out on top.

But, I have tried it in stereo, as well. Again, thumbs down. To me, it's not close. "Pure DSD" is one of the most mythical and most overrated concepts in audio, IMHO. Just so that you know, I go to about 2 dozen live classical concerts/year to "calibrate" my ear/brain.

Also, an Oppo 83/Integra 9.8 with XT, not XT/32, with a Pro calibration utterly demolished an Audio Research/Esoteric "pure DSD" setup in recording reviewer Andy Quint's system several years ago.

Thank you.

I have read a few articles about the mythical pre pro direct DSD conversion to analog capabilities and have always been curious about the benifits, if any.
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post #521 of 4288 Old 12-27-2011, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Off the top of my head, a mid-priced prepro is much more likely to be able to accept DSD than is a typical "nosebleed" prepro. This is probably because the former completes on the basis of its feature set and performance while the latter competes on the basis of reputation, construction/design quality and performance.

Of course, a lot of this is moot because, in order for any of them to employ their DSP features, a conversion to PCM is necessary anyway. So?

Kal,

I enjoy your "Music in the Round" series.

Keep up the great work.
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post #522 of 4288 Old 12-28-2011, 07:59 PM
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I am looking for a good Integra dealer that supports their products and realizes that nobody in their right minds pays retail for anything these days, especially audio.

I currently have an Integra 9.8 and with the arrival of a 70" SOTA TV, will now be integrating my high-end front end and watching more movies. As such, I'm looking for an 80,3 to get the Audyssey xt32 processing.

Thanks for any assistance - PMs are fie as well.
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post #523 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 05:35 AM
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I am looking for a good Integra dealer that supports their products and realizes that nobody in their right mind pays retail for anything these days, especially audio.

I currently have an Integra 9.8 and with the arrival of a 70" SOTA TV, will now be integrating my high-end front end and watching more movies. As such, I'm looking for an 80.3 to get the Audyssey xt32 processing.

Thanks for any assistance - PMs are fineas well.
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post #524 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by fplanner2000 View Post

I am looking for a good Integra dealer that supports their products and realizes that nobody in their right mind pays retail for anything these days, especially audio.

I currently have an Integra 9.8 and with the arrival of a 70" SOTA TV, will now be integrating my high-end front end and watching more movies. As such, I'm looking for an 80.3 to get the Audyssey xt32 processing.

Thanks for any assistance - PMs are fineas well.

Where do you live?
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post #525 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rttrek View Post

One should point out that the Oppo-93 (and its brethren) has its own distance and level correction, which it applies *only* to analog out, for this very reason. I grab these numbers from my Integra 9.9's auto-calibration, and plug them into the Oppo.

The only reason I use analog for SACD Multi-Channel is because I prefer my rear speaker pair for music to my side speakers, which are adaptive bipolar and are designed to make a diffuse sound field instead of a point source.

Yes, players may have their own distance correction and bass management, but that always involves internal conversion of DSD to PCM, defeating the "pure DSD" objective. That's true in the Oppo 93/95 and every other player, even if you use the analog outputs - the player's Dacs are converting PCM to analog in that case. Nobody makes a DSP, which is how these features are implemented, that operates in DSD mode. Player distance correction and bass management are usually also far less flexible than that in a prepro. Players also lack auto-mike calibration for speaker distance and level trims. Mike calibration is generally far more accurate than manual tape measure and sound level meter calibration. Quite often, the manual method ignores internal, electrical delays in the subwoofer channel.


Note also, that most all SACD's are engineered to use the ITU speaker setup with the surrounds at 110 degrees in 5.0. (This is compatible with both Dolby and DTS recommended setups.) Using the back surrounds instead will not be accurate to what the recording/mixing/mastering engineers heard. For greater accuracy to the source in imaging, you might try switching the positions of your side and rear surrounds.

I have a 7.1 setup with speakers at approximately 0, +/- 30, +/- 110 and +/- 150 degrees per ITU. The back surrounds are not used with SACD or other 5-channel material. They are all Martin Logan electrostat hybrids which are dipoles above their internal woofer xovers, at about 200 - 400 Hz. But, all speakers are facing the sweet spot frontally. I am extraordinarily pleased with the sound on both SACD and movies. My sound is in many ways comparable to the best Mch setups I have heard, including pure DSD, pure ITU setups.
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post #526 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 10:21 AM
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I am looking for a good Integra dealer that supports their products and realizes that nobody in their right mind pays retail for anything these days, especially audio.

Perhaps the margins of selling at less than MSRP do not support "good dealers that support their products?"


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post #527 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 05:05 PM
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I am replacing my current receiver with an DHC 80.3. I noticed there is no Sirius port for a tuner on the 80.3. It appears the receiver only streams Sirius. My question is, does anyone here listen to Sirius via streaming? If so, how is the sound quality? Any downside to streaming? Would I be better off using a separate tuner with an outdoor antenna?
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post #528 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 05:50 PM
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I am replacing my current receiver with an DHC 80.3. I noticed there is no Sirius port for a tuner on the 80.3. It appears the receiver only streams Sirius. My question is, does anyone here listen to Sirius via streaming? If so, how is the sound quality? Any downside to streaming? Would I be better off using a separate tuner with an outdoor antenna?

I have an 80.1 with Sirius built in. The sound quality and interface are on par with a tuner.

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post #529 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 08:42 PM
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I live in Colorado.

Pepar - your experiences may differ from mine, but I totally disagree with your suggestion. I have no problems with "reasonable" profits so brick and mortar can stay in business and in fact support several such establishments. Unfortunately, I have seen too many dealers underestimate the future buying potential of people they deal with on a "seemingly" 1 time basis. Its really all about the service, and whether dealers like it or not, the price has become part of and/or tied to the service.

When people treat me right, I am loyal and refer others. I know many others who do the same thing. A particular high-end audio-component engineer and manufacturer went out of his way to help me with a relatively small ($2K) purchase of a piece of his introductory gear about 8 years ago. Although we are separated by many states, we have become pretty decent friends over the years. I have purchased in excess of $100K of gear from him during this time period, and will definitely continue to do business with him as my needs continue to evolve.

My experiences have led me to conclude that if a dealer is not willing to work with me on price of an initial piece of gear, regardless of the price bracket, he (or she) is not really interested in trying to meet MY needs, but instead is focusing on theirs(maximizing profits off 1 sale). That is not the sort of person I want to deal with nor build an ongoing relationship with.

Sorry to be so longwinded, but your response "hit a nerve" as they say..
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post #530 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fplanner2000 View Post

I live in Colorado.

Pepar - your experiences may differ from mine, but I totally disagree with your suggestion. I have no problems with "reasonable" profits so brick and mortar can stay in business and in fact support several such establishments. Unfortunately, I have seen too many dealers underestimate the future buying potential of people they deal with on a "seemingly" 1 time basis. Its really all about the service, and whether dealers like it or not, the price has become part of and/or tied to the service.

When people treat me right, I am loyal and refer others. I know many others who do the same thing. A particular high-end audio-component engineer and manufacturer went out of his way to help me with a relatively small ($2K) purchase of a piece of his introductory gear about 8 years ago. Although we are separated by many states, we have become pretty decent friends over the years. I have purchased in excess of $100K of gear from him during this time period, and will definitely continue to do business with him as my needs continue to evolve.

My experiences have led me to conclude that if a dealer is not willing to work with me on price of an initial piece of gear, regardless of the price bracket, he (or she) is not really interested in trying to meet MY needs, but instead is focusing on theirs(maximizing profits off 1 sale). That is not the sort of person I want to deal with nor build an ongoing relationship with.

Sorry to be so longwinded, but your response "hit a nerve" as they say..

You've spent 100K on gear in the last 8 years but your all bent out of shape for $2600 or so for the 80.3??

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post #531 of 4288 Old 12-29-2011, 09:36 PM
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See the Home Theater Magazine review of the DHC 80.3

http://www.hometheater.com/content/i...-701-amplifier
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post #532 of 4288 Old 12-30-2011, 05:33 AM
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Its the principle, not the $$$$$.
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post #533 of 4288 Old 12-30-2011, 07:38 AM
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N8 - read my last paragraph above.
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post #534 of 4288 Old 12-30-2011, 09:54 AM
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See the Home Theater Magazine review of the DHC 80.3

http://www.hometheater.com/content/i...-701-amplifier

nice review, I don't like that it has color space issues having the video processor on. I have a 3009 and defeating the video processor may fix the color space issue but you lose all the ability to tweak any of your video settings, no deinterlacing and scaling. Cycling through video modes with the VP defeated does nothing to the picture. So if you have to turn the processor off you're losing out on one of the main features of the receiver which is it's video processing ability. This is fine with blu-ray sources but for Cable TV for instance the Onkyo ability to upscale 720p and 1080i and clean up the image is lost with the VP off. I wondering if the last update on Dec 20th addressed this if not hopefully Onkyo will address this soon.
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post #535 of 4288 Old 12-30-2011, 01:26 PM
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N8 - read my last paragraph above.

I know but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet lol. I didn't want to pay what I paid either but at the end of the day, there aren't many integra dealers around here and they are not allowed to ship anything, so it may suck to pay more than you want but you are getting a kick ass processor at least!

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post #536 of 4288 Old 12-31-2011, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fplanner2000 View Post

I live in Colorado.

Pepar - your experiences may differ from mine, but I totally disagree with your suggestion. I have no problems with "reasonable" profits so brick and mortar can stay in business and in fact support several such establishments. Unfortunately, I have seen too many dealers underestimate the future buying potential of people they deal with on a "seemingly" 1 time basis. Its really all about the service, and whether dealers like it or not, the price has become part of and/or tied to the service.

When people treat me right, I am loyal and refer others. I know many others who do the same thing. A particular high-end audio-component engineer and manufacturer went out of his way to help me with a relatively small ($2K) purchase of a piece of his introductory gear about 8 years ago. Although we are separated by many states, we have become pretty decent friends over the years. I have purchased in excess of $100K of gear from him during this time period, and will definitely continue to do business with him as my needs continue to evolve.

My experiences have led me to conclude that if a dealer is not willing to work with me on price of an initial piece of gear, regardless of the price bracket, he (or she) is not really interested in trying to meet MY needs, but instead is focusing on theirs(maximizing profits off 1 sale). That is not the sort of person I want to deal with nor build an ongoing relationship with.

Sorry to be so longwinded, but your response "hit a nerve" as they say..

Well, it was only a "suggestion" in that I don't know. Unless you are in the business, how could you know either that a brick and mortar store can be viable selling below the MSRP? On top of that, manufacturers like Integra (Onkyo) go to great lengths to assure their network that no one is undercutting the price.

Rather than purchase Integra, I buy Onkyo ... which is identical. And if Onkyo changes their distribution on that to where I can no longer get it for what I consider a good price, I will buy something else.

I notice with the 80.3, there is no US release of the 5509. I can only imagine that it is to sell more 80.3 and support their dealer/installer network. First of all, they wouldn't do that for any other reason than to make it less tempting for dealers to discount and easier for then to sell at full MSRP. Second of all, screw them and their manipulation. 'Course I can say that because I bought the 5508 (for a killer price) and am loving it.

Jeff


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post #537 of 4288 Old 12-31-2011, 07:44 AM
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I'm loving my 5508 too.
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post #538 of 4288 Old 12-31-2011, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post


Rather than purchase Integra, I buy Onkyo ... which is identical. And if Onkyo changes their distribution on that to where I can no longer get it for what I consider a good price, I will buy something else.

I notice with the 80.3, there is no US release of the 5509. I can only imagine that it is to sell more 80.3 and support their dealer/installer network. First of all, they wouldn't do that for any other reason than to make it less tempting for dealers to discount and easier for then to sell at full MSRP. Second of all, screw them and their manipulation. 'Course I can say that because I bought the 5508 (for a killer price) and am loving it.

Jeff

I am so with you on this, Jeff. These sort of sweetheart deals that are solely designed to be in the interests of manufacturers and retailers, not the consumer, really pi$$ me off.

Over on another thread I've been having a rather unkind pop at SVS lately for their decision to set up distributors in Europe and then being unable to sell to me direct because of "contractual obligations". So SVS would rather support their distributor (in Norway of all places - one of the most isolated parts of Europe that there is!) than their customer. I asked SVS if I could buy direct from them because the last time I bought from Norway, the sub took weeks to arrive and it cost more than buying direct from the States, from where stuff arrives usually within a week of being ordered. But no - they say I have to buy from Norway or not at all.

Of course the deal they should have done with their distributor is that they would not promote direct sales and would always try to encourage people to use the local distributor, but if a customer insisted on buying direct from them, then they had to put their customer's interests first and allow it.

Because I am buying a second sub which needs to be identical to my first sub, I have no choice but to go through Norway - if I was a first time SVS buyer I’d have probably looked elsewhere because of this TBH. And guess what - the sub was ordered in the afternoon of the 22nd December and it is still nowhere near the UK! I wonder if the guys at SVS knew where Norway was when they set up the deal - my sub will have to make TWO sea crossings and about 1000 miles overland before it gets to me.

[/rant mode]

Phew, I feel better now


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post #539 of 4288 Old 12-31-2011, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by nismo604 View Post

nice review, I don't like that it has color space issues having the video processor on. I have a 3009 and defeating the video processor may fix the color space issue but you lose all the ability to tweak any of your video settings, no deinterlacing and scaling. Cycling through video modes with the VP defeated does nothing to the picture. So if you have to turn the processor off you're losing out on one of the main features of the receiver which is it's video processing ability. This is fine with blu-ray sources but for Cable TV for instance the Onkyo ability to upscale 720p and 1080i and clean up the image is lost with the VP off. I wondering if the last update on Dec 20th addressed this if not hopefully Onkyo will address this soon.


I'd go further than to "not like" this...in my opinion if the video processing implementation is clipping bit depth or otherwise modifying colorspace it is an egregious oversight by Integra/Onkyo. To nismo's point this is one of the principal features of this or any other processors and to have it destroy image is unacceptable.

If Integra/Onkyo hasn't remedied this yet they need to immediately...I won't look at a 80.3 until I know this has a path to resolution. Sorry if these seems like an overly emotional post, but working in the entertainment industry (post-production and distribution) there are a lot of people that dedicate enormous amounts of time, effort and capital to generate a creative intent for content. To have a piece of equipment destroy that due to oversight is incredibly frustrating (and yes I recognize that current TVs themselves are larger culprits of this violation).
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post #540 of 4288 Old 12-31-2011, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Manchild View Post


I'd go further than to "not like" this...in my opinion if the video processing implementation is clipping bit depth or otherwise modifying colorspace it is an egregious oversight by Integra/Onkyo. To nismo's point this is one of the principal features of this or any other processors and to have it destroy image is unacceptable.

If Integra/Onkyo hasn't remedied this yet they need to immediately...I won't look at a 80.3 until I know this has a path to resolution. Sorry if these seems like an overly emotional post, but working in the entertainment industry (post-production and distribution) there are a lot of people that dedicate enormous amounts of time, effort and capital to generate a creative intent for content. To have a piece of equipment destroy that due to oversight is incredibly frustrating (and yes I recognize that current TVs themselves are larger culprits of this violation).

Why does every piece of video gear I have have video processing? ...the BD player, my pre/pro (Onk 5508) and my JVC projector. I hate (paying for) redundancy. But that forced redundancy gives me options, and I use the superior vp in my projector. The other two are bypassed/off.

Jeff


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