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post #721 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 06:48 PM
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Raul.

I never postulated in absolutes and still don't agree with N8's position.

I appreciate your input in the discussion.

While you are correct the published paper that most refer to states:

Quote:
THE FOLLOWING CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION OF A RECTANGULAR ROOM AND A SEATING AREA IN THE CENTER OR CENTER-REAR OF THE ROOM:

That translates to a majority of rooms setup up for movie playback, and thus my comment "general consensus."

Quote:
Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation. When you consider the additional expense of using more subwoofers, there is certainly no justification for using more than four. To the contrary, it was observed that the LF factor actually went down for larger numbers of subwoofers

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post #722 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 06:50 PM
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The Welti and Devantier paper so concludes

Here

but.....

There are a significant amount of exceptions that I can think of,...

also, FilmMixer, I'm not sure which 18's they installed, but do you feel you have adequate resolving power to accurately determine recorded levels at 20hz, and into the infra range, on a dubbing stage with only four 18's?

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post #723 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

As for the playback of movies, it's 100% preference on how someone listens to movies. I generally listen at reference at all times, it's great and my JTR's do this laughing all day long. Have you never heard a movie and though the mix sucked? whats stopping you from adding some bass or whatever you want to make it sound as you please. Who cares if the director wanted it to sound a certain way, makes no difference, all that matters is that you/I/anyone enjoys what they are watching, no matter how strange it seem to anyone else.

Since I've dedicated most of my life to creating soundtracks, I think you know I am wholly interested in what the director intends.

I never understand this sentiment of yours.

If you love movies, I would think that would be the goal in setting up a home theater.

Of course I don't think every mix is how I'd do it, or is great.

But I love, love, love movies and I am wholly interested in maintaining their artistic intent.

So you and I will have to part ways on our debate.

We don't have a common reference from where to start.
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post #724 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

also, FilmMixer, I'm not sure which 18's they installed, but do you feel you have adequate resolving power to accurately determine recorded levels at 20hz, and into the infra range, on a dubbing stage with only four 18's?

Yes... it measures and we have the head room (and the floor moves "better" )

The room is 54 x 38.
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post #725 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

Sorry, not even you get a pass without the facts.

I have to quote you via copy and clean up (your original post had some formatting errors:

Quote:
BTW.. we just replaced the 12 18" subs on my stage with a 4 x 18" cabinet.... guess what? It got better.. and not by a small amount.

I am really dissapointed FilmMixer. I don't care what your qualifications are, you can't make subjective comments like that w/o measurements..


Really? Do you think we just dropped them in and turned them on without a full tuning and measurement and then started mixing away without a consensus of the change?

I don't know how to continue on that comment.....

Quote:
(and, btw, continuous exposure at those SPL's is not good for the inside of your body either.)

Again, show me the clinical data to support this assertion.

I didn't mean it as a clinical postulation... I don't think there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary (I went to school a long time ago and haven't brushed up lately on the effects of infrasonics on humans,) but I don't think that continuous exposure at high SPL's (>130, which is what he mentioned) is wholly benign to the digestive tract, etc...

Regardless, continuous exposure to any sound at >130 isn't recommended...

Wholly anecdotal on my part, yes, of that I am guilty.. but..

Lighten up...
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post #726 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 09:54 PM
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It's all good Marc. I completely understand why you want movies to sound as they do. For the most part, thats me also but there are times I crank up the bass for fun.
I still think one of the best mixes for movies is Battlefield LA and the new Tron, TONS of subsonics in there and great overall sound. The 80.3 does a great job!

Have you done any films that are popular that I may know?

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #727 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Have you done any films that are popular that I may know?

Popular is a subjective word you know.

"Bridesmaids," "Crash," "Superbad" and "We Were Soldiers" are "popular" around here (as are "John Adams" and "The Pacific" for my TV work.)

As I'm getting older, the list is getting longer (160+ films.)
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post #728 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 10:23 PM
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Not trying to step on your toes here Marc, but as you are being a bit modest. Please allow me to provide him with a more complete list of some of your work.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0279892/filmoyear

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0279892/awards
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post #729 of 4295 Old 01-10-2012, 11:32 PM
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A decorated solider he is, very impressive!
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post #730 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

Hummmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say Picture Mixer?


dbl

This is me correcting you
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post #731 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I say "just try it" because you actually have to do it, before you can have a real opinion on weather it works or not.


And I repeat: do you think the professional acousticians like Toole etc "haven't tried it" before they come to their scientifically-backed conclusions?
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post #732 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 05:19 AM
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Lot of new names posting here .. come for the show, I'd guess.
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post #733 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Frankly I don't know whats going on here but it doesn't seem nice.

Is there a dedicated Integra DHC-80.3 thread, do you know? You know, one where the discussion is all about the Integra 80.3 (or the Onkyo 5509)?
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post #734 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Is there a dedicated Integra DHC-80.3 thread, do you know? You know, one where the discussion is all about the Integra 80.3 (or the Onkyo 5509)?

Agreed. But, just one contray view from a music perspective, which is my main focus. I am more than content with just one JL Fathom f133 plus Audyssey. If I am missing some occasional infrasonics on the occasional smash, bang, rumble movie, then poor me. But, then those movies are not really my own personal cup of tea, anyway. I do not see that multiple subs to extend my response infrasonically on rare occasions would be at all worth the investment in my case.

My sub's output is way more than sufficient, extended and flat to recreate a plausible musical experience that compares favorably to the live concerts I attend. And, I am quite happy with the movie sound effects I get as it is in a reasonably large 24 x 17 room with high ceilings.

I have not read Toole's paper on multiple subs, but it seems to me that with Audyssey, it is not really necessary to have multiple subs to try to even out room modal behavior. That's what Audyssey does, and it does it quite well per measurements.

I can understand filmmixer's and other similarly inclined movie lovers' interest in generating infrasonic bass response. But, for many of us, added bass extension or "power" is really quite superfluous.
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post #735 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

While you are correct the published paper that most refer to states:...That translates to a majority of rooms setup up for movie playback, and thus my comment "general consensus."

I agree FM, but that is not where your mistake in interpretation lies. It lies in confusing location with number of subs.
Quote:


Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation. When you consider the additional expense of using more subwoofers, there is certainly no justification for using more than four. To the contrary, it was observed that the LF factor actually went down for larger numbers of subwoofers

Cancellation of room nodes does not occur because you use 4 subs, it comes from placing the subs in the right place. I.e. their research found that placing the subs in the 4 corners or the 4 mid-walls would, in most cases, address the room modes and smooth the bass. If you co-located the 4 subs in the front wall, you would have 4 subs in the room, but unless you are very lucky, you have not addressed the room modes to smooth out the bass in the room, and you certainly have not addressed the bass problem in the manner suggested by the work of Dr. Toole, Olive et al. Again, their work suggests that one should not need more than the four locations suggested to place subs, not that 4 subs regardless of placement (e.g. co-located; i.e. in one spot) are sufficient to address the room nodes of a small space (virtually every room in a home falls under this measurement category) with parallel walls and 90 degree corners.

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post #736 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Agreed. But, just one contray view from a music perspective, which is my main focus.

I was being flippant

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I am more than content with just one JL Fathom f133 plus Audyssey. If I am missing some occasional infrasonics on the occasional smash, bang, rumble movie, then poor me. But, then those movies are not really my own personal cup of tea, anyway. I do not see that multiple subs to extend my response infrasonically on rare occasions would be at all worth the investment in my case.

And I agree with you. In my HT my primary focus is movies and I do like some nice deep bass when called for, but I prefer to remain true to the artistic integrity of the Director, not fill my room with a dozen subs to get a distorted presentation of what was originally intended. I can't go along with that "I don't care what the Director intended" schtick I'm afraid - if people believe they know better than guys like Martin Scorsese and so on, that's fine, but I don't agree with them. I agree with you wrt music reproduction and don't even use a sub with my separate stereo music setup. I have capable floor standers there and have never felt lacking in the bass department with the kind of music I enjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

My sub's output is way more than sufficient, extended and flat to recreate a plausible musical experience that compares favorably to the live concerts I attend. And, I am quite happy with the movie sound effects I get as it is in a reasonably large 24 x 17 room with high ceilings.

It's all that matters. If it recreates the live experience to a good extent, then you have achieved the main objective IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I have not read Toole's paper on multiple subs, but it seems to me that with Audyssey, it is not really necessary to have multiple subs to try to even out room modal behavior. That's what Audyssey does, and it does it quite well per measurements.

It does do it quite well but it does it even better if the room is right to start with. I am amazed at the impact two subs has had here (see my impressions in the Audyssey thread from a day ago) and now I wouldn't go back to just one. I have no room for more than two - in fact two is a squeeze in my small room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I can understand filmmixer's and other similarly inclined movie lovers' interest in generating infrasonic bass response. But, for many of us, added bass extension or "power" is really quite superfluous.

Totally agree. Other than organ music, there isn't much content in live music that goes below about 40Hz anyway (synthesised stuff apart, which isn't my bag anyway, nor yours I suspect).
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post #737 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Again, their work suggests that one should not need more than the four locations suggested to place subs, not that 4 subs regardless of placement (e.g. co-located; i.e. in one spot) are sufficient to address the room nodes of a small space (virtually every room in a home falls under this measurement category) with parallel walls and 90 degree corners.

That's a good distinction there between 4 subs and 4 locations. And you express the point well - think not 4 subs but think rather 4 locations. Neat.
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post #738 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I have not read Toole's paper on multiple subs, but it seems to me that with Audyssey, it is not really necessary to have multiple subs to try to even out room modal behavior. That's what Audyssey does, and it does it quite well per measurements.

Although Audyssey is a useful tool, it does not come close to addressing the problem of smoothing out the bass in the room in the manner subs placed in multiple locations does (i.e. reducing the effects of room modes so that multiple seats have similar performance of bass). At the moment, there are basically only 2 tools that do that (and still require calibration after their automatic tuning to ensure best bass performance). Bassq (a tool specifically designed for said task) and SFM (which is a tool within ARCOS which at the moment can only be used through JBL's SDEC-4500). Bassq will run you around $1,200 and the SDEC-4500 with ARCOS and calibration is well over $20K...oh and they also work best (i.e. smooth the bass in the room best) with the use of 4 subs located in the room in the manner suggested by the research discussed in this thread.

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post #739 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:36 AM
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This thread is really off the rails. Could all non-80.3 chatter please be taken to threads where it is on-topic?? That was politely asked.
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post #740 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I prefer to remain true to the artistic integrity of the Director, not fill my room with a dozen subs to get a distorted presentation of what was originally intended. I can’t go along with that "I don't care what the Director intended" schtick I'm afraid - if people believe they know better than guys like Martin Scorsese and so on, that's fine, but I don't agree with them.

This is a mistake that many audiophiles make, and I guess HT enthusiasts as well. The purpose of properly placed subs and proper use of eq is to be true to the original, and not the opposite.

Other than speakers, by far the most important factor affecting sound is the room. I.e. the room acts as an eq and changes the way the speaker sounds (that is why your speakers measure so different in your room than they did in the anechoic room when tested [assuming the manufacturer tested it in this manner]). The room modes we are discussing affect how bass is reproduced in your room. If you took a measurement of a room with one excellent sub with audyssey, and 4 very good subs properly located, you will very likely find that the room with the 4 subs will have the smoothest bass (i.e. it will be able to best reproduce the event in its original form). The use of multiple sub locations has nothing to do with exaggerating the bass (and moving away from the recording engineer's intent), and everything to do with more accurate (smoother bass) bass reproduction in the room.

Edit: Sorry Pepar, I just noticed your post. Consider this my last post on the matter.

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post #741 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 08:52 AM
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I stumbled on this product thread to find a rather peculiar theory/philosophy debate. As my moniker implies, and those who know me here, I share Filmmixer's situation of being working industry pro and AV enthusiast. (I stumbled on AVS in 2000 during lunch while doing a series at WB. )

My perspective is obviously somewhat more from the visual perspective, but I have invested in pursuing acoustic and audio knowledge extensively over the last decade. I am very familiar with the Harman White Papers by Floyd Toole and Todd Welti that are referenced here. In fact, I sat in presentations on those white papers by their authors and spoke to them face to face at length on these subjects as part of my self-imposed educational process.

My $.02 worth... I see pieces of information from FM, N8, and others that are quite accurate. But what everyone must understand that there are two worlds trying to mingle here. Filmmixer and pros in the biz work within a carefully structured world full of specifications and standards that define the playing field and ensure both plenty of room for creativity and an end product that delivers consistency based on technical and creative criterea. In other words, it is created to meet definable, repeatable technical performance, resulting in an experience that is "faithful" to the artist's creative vision in a defined environment (pro/commercial cinema). Mixing for the home such as for episodic TV or the like is totally off the radar, as it is impossible to define a "standard" home. (I'm out of my realm here, so help me with this Filmmixer.)

Filmmixer and I have to work in that environment and we may perfer to experience the product in the cinema and at home that way. Clearly in N8's case, this is not the goal. That's fine for him and every consumer/end user.

The fact is that once the product comes to the home, all bets are off. The two environments are (or can be) so different that it is virtually impossible to precisely reproduce every engineering parameter from the dubbing stage. Is it worthwhile to pursue such? If you enjoy doing so, yes. You can certainly have great fun designing and creating a room/environment that will acoustically give you the best chance of faithfully reproducing that product...and going anywhere else with it your heart desires. I also contend that it is worthwhile to have a starting point/reference from which to depart and return. IMO that "starting point/reference" is an evironment and system that reproduces an "experience" that is as faithful to the original product/mix/etc as is possible in the given home environment. I can depart from that to my heart's content to pursue subjective desires, but I know from where I came and can return.

I'll take a quick shot at the subwoofer debate. I can't tell what size or proportions the room each party in the debate here has (other than Filmmixers large room), but my guess is that they are all so different as to be comparing apples and oranges. i.e. Large room vs small room LF acoustics, etc.. It is much easier to have smooth LF over a larger area in a large room than a smaller room, as we all know. Four subs can suffice to achieve smooth response at Reference level for any size room as long as all the factors many of you have stated are satisfied (room proportions, primary seating area, size/output, location, phase, EQ, etc.). If you need more or less output than Reference, go for it.

My thanks to Filmmixer for sharing your perspective from your vast experience.

Cheers and Happy New Year to all.
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Just picked up an 80.3. The box indicates it is a 80.3(B). Can someone please tell me what the "(B)" indicates, if anything.

Thanks!


Jim
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post #743 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Just picked up an 80.3. The box indicates it is a 80.3(B). Can someone please tell me what the "(B)" indicates, if anything.

Thanks!


Jim

It's probably a color indicator.

Speakers: Martin Logan Montis, EM C2, Dual Depth I Subs, JBL S38 surround (upgrading soon) | Processor: Yamaha CX-A5000 | Amp: Sunfire TGA-5400 | Sources: DirecTV HR34, HTPC, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-103, PS4, PS3, Xbox One, Wii U | Television: Panasonic 65VT50 | Remote: Logitech Harmony Ultimate
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post #744 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 09:03 AM
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post #745 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JlgLaw View Post

Just picked up an 80.3. The box indicates it is a 80.3(B). Can someone please tell me what the "(B)" indicates, if anything.

Thanks!


Jim

Yup it just means black.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #746 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And I repeat: do you think the professional acousticians like Toole etc "haven't tried it" before they come to their scientifically-backed conclusions?

We've already worked out in the other thread that although he's right in the case of a perfect room, the same principles don't apply to room not based in his theory. Which a lot of people rooms fall into.

Anyways, we will consider it dropped, there is a thread in the DIY area.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #747 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I stumbled on this product thread to find a rather peculiar theory/philosophy debate. As my moniker implies, and those who know me here, I share Filmmixer's situation of being working industry pro and AV enthusiast. (I stumbled on AVS in 2000 during lunch while doing a series at WB. )

Here here from yet a 3rd in the industry monitoring the thread
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post #748 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 09:14 AM
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Yup it just means black.


Thanks!

(I need some sleep.)


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post #749 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

This thread is really off the rails. Could all non-80.3 chatter please be taken to threads where it is on-topic?? That was politely asked.

Finally ........

Plus ^^^^ 1

Terry
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post #750 of 4295 Old 01-11-2012, 10:42 AM
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There is a lot to read here, and I'll certainly plow ahead if necessary, but there is also a lot of non-80.3 talk. Can someone briefly summarize the major issues (assuming there are any) still unresolved with the 80.3, and confirm latest firmware (again assuming it has been updated). Just want to know what to be looking for on setup.

Thank you!


Jim
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