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post #991 of 4277 Old 02-01-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by musicophile View Post

This is another unjustified oversimplification. The real world does not conform to such idealized notions.

The "digital source" we are talking about is an ordered collection of many very small divots in a piece of flexible plastic. Consider the representation of a single bit in this format. Suppose that our player's transport incorrectly reads that bit as 1, instead of 0. The player then faithfully sends out a brief low-voltage electrical signal, faithfully detected by our processor as an SPDIF representation of 1 for that bit. The processor then faithfully generates analog output consistent with a value of 1, not 0. At roughly the same time the SPDIF signal goes out, the player also sends analog output based on the bit being 1. D-A conversion is error-prone, and in this case that portion of the analog output has the expected properties of the output for a 0-valued bit. Now suppose our processor was paying attention to this low-voltage signal instead of the other. The processor has been configured to perform an A-D conversion, which it does in this case by faithfully representing that input with a 0-valued bit. We'll give the processor's D-A conversion the same benefit of the doubt as in the first case, and suppose the final analog output is consistent with a value of 0 for this bit. Note that this result is indeed preferable.

I have just illustrated that, in fact, greater "truthfulness to the source" can occur precisely because additional conversions took place. Yes, the misread bit was corrected by accident, but then the misread was an accident also. There are many bits on a CD, and accidents do happen. Where and how often will depend on the particulars. Absolutes are not as common as some would have it.

I've never advocated buying, e.g., the Oppo 95 rather than the 93 to use with the Integra DHC-80.3. My personal recommendation would be the opposite, for most budgets anyway. I have the 83SE because I bought it when I was using my older processor, not equipped for HDMI. Again, I just suggested giving the other path a try if you have such a player. How you got from there to the idea that I wouldn't "forgive" you if you prefer your digital output is a complete mystery to me.

Then again, if you would really rather listen to a version of a song you don't enjoy hearing as much because you believe that it has greater fidelity, then we do have fundamentally different aesthetics, and I expect much else would be a mystery as well.

I do wonder, though, did you actually try it? If so, with which player?


Yes, my aesthetic is quite different from yours. I am an audio purist who knows from long, long experience in audio that all additional analog stages distort or add noise to the signal to a greater or lesser degree. Ask any audio engineer. Dacs and adc's are such stages that affect the analog signal, changing it at least somewhat from the original source. That need not be true of digital processing - bits is bits. Your hypothetical player that swaps ones and zeros does not exist. So, why even bring it up? If it is HDMI jitter you wish to argue about, then that is really suitable fr another thread, not this one.

You seem to have some agenda, but judging by the responses, no one here seems to be with you. You demand proof from us, but all you have to offer yourself is that you "enjoy" a song more your way. Knock yourself out doing it your way. No one is stopping you.
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post #992 of 4277 Old 02-01-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Yes, my aesthetic is quite different from yours. I am an audio purist who knows from long, long experience in audio that all additional analog stages distort or add noise to the signal to a greater or lesser degree. Ask any audio engineer. Dacs and adc's are such stages that affect the analog signal, changing it at least somewhat from the original source. That need not be true of digital processing - bits is bits. Your hypothetical player that swaps ones and zeros does not exist. So, why even bring it up? If it is HDMI jitter you wish to argue about, then that is really suitable fr another thread, not this one.

You seem to have some agenda, but judging by the responses, no one here seems to be with you. You demand proof from us, but all you have to offer yourself is that you "enjoy" a song more your way. Knock yourself out doing it your way. No one is stopping you.

You both have a point, Musicophile don't forget that the BD-95 and DHC-80.3 have very comparable if not identical DACs, while an Esoteric, A1UDCI, or Oppo 83SE will have superior ones, AKM or Sabre.

To me the comparative A/B with multiple recordings both stereo and MCH layer of SACDs, sounded much better decoded in the DVD-A1UDCI than DSD from this player or the Oppo 980.

That is just me though, and please keep in mind that i was a fierce advocate of processor decoding until i saw the light listening in several dealer showrooms to premium equipment, on the rare occasions that i can escape from Appalachia To me it makes more sense spending 2k on a reference used or refurb player than getting a Classe or Lexicon for 4x the price, and spend same on this swiss A/V multitool of an Onkyo/Integra and with 2months of patient ebay hunting (thx God for the smart phone app with auction alarms) a full setup of King Cobras, with the same net result, superb audio!
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post #993 of 4277 Old 02-01-2012, 11:25 PM
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please PM me if you got it for more than 20% below MSRP...thanks.
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post #994 of 4277 Old 02-02-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicophile View Post

The processor then faithfully generates analog output consistent with a value of 1, not 0.

I don't think you understand how traditional (not DSD) digital audio works. For CD audio, bits are not processed one at a time, 16 of them are grouped together into a "sample", which represents one of 65,536 different analog voltages that could be output at that moment by the D/A converter. (Edit: regardless if your source is CD or DSD, the Integra will be using the traditional method to re-digitize the analog signal)

There is also error correction encoded into the disc, so that odds of your transport misreading a single bit are extremely low. More likely a scratch causes a large chunk of data to go missing, and there is nothing the A/D converter in the Integra is going to be able to do to fix that.

Re-digitizing an analog signal is most likely going to throw away some of the high frequency data because the A/D converter on the Integra is not in perfect sync with the D/A converter on the source. This is probably what makes the sound more pleasing to you.

-james
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post #995 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


I was that someone

First you have to have a Pro-capable unit. This includes the Integra pre-pros like the 80.2/80.3 and the Onkyo pre-pros like the 5508 and 5509. (There are probably others too - that was an example not an exhaustive list). AFAIK, no Onkyo AVRs support Pro but I believe that some of the higher-end Denons do. A full list can be found on Audyssey's website in the MultEQ section.

Assuming you have a Pro-capable unit, then you need to buy the Audyssey Pro kit (details also on Audyssey's website). This costs about $600 plus you need a licence for every unit you intend to use the kit on. The licence is $150. You also need a PC of some description - laptop is easiest.

You hook the Pro kit to the unit and the laptop as described in the user manual, run the Pro software and measure away, using a far superior, individually calibrated mic to the 'consumer' version. Once your (up to 32) measurements are complete and you are happy with the result, you upload the calibration settings from the PC to the unit. Then grab a cold one, sit back, revel in the best sound you've ever heard (in your room)

I assume that it also can handle the 2 subs like XT32?

One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.
~Bob Marley~
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post #996 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


But pointless because you are re-digitising. So using analogue becomes pointless.

Not if your source is analog.

One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.
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post #997 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 10:17 AM
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post #998 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mikefl52 View Post

Not if your source is analog.

It's pointless to do numerous D to A conversions. It's pointless to redigitise the analog signal. If people want to do it, that's fine. But if they are doing it because they think it will somehow improve their sound quality, they are mistaken.
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post #999 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 10:31 AM
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Yes, thats why all my connections between components is HDMI.
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post #1000 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


It's pointless to do numerous D to A conversions. It's pointless to redigitise the analog signal. If people want to do it, that's fine. But if they are doing it because they think it will somehow improve their sound quality, they are mistaken.

So you are saying that if my source is a turntable (through an external phono preamp) I should not take advantage of Audyssey. I beg to differ, doing a back to back with Audyssey sounds better.

One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.
~Bob Marley~
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post #1001 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mikefl52 View Post

So you are saying that if my source is a turntable (through an external phono preamp) I should not take advantage of Audyssey. I beg to differ, doing a back to back with Audyssey sounds better.

Sorry - I misread your post in my haste to get something else done. For a pure analogue source like a turntable, clearly there is no DAC!! HTS, as a 'stereo purist' myself, with a strong belief in the superiority of vinyl over CD, I wouldn't want anything digital coming within a mile of that system. That's just an opinon - others will have different views, beliefs and opinions on that. Generally, whenever I post on AVS, I am always referring to my HT system and its workings. I ought to add that to my sig line.
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post #1002 of 4277 Old 02-03-2012, 06:49 PM
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Having just discovered two-channel audio and the HDtracks website in 2011, this 80.3 is serving me quite well. I just wanted to say "kudos" to all who have the pleasure of owning one of these fine preamps. I owned an 80.2 before this, but it proved to be problematic in the left-surround channel once I accidentally plugged it into a 20 Amp circuit. Now there's a $2.3k mistake I will NEVER make again.

Once again, kudos to all my 80.3 brethren.

*Random Edit* I was an avid multi-channel fan for years before accidentally stumbling onto two-channel listening.
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post #1003 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Having just discovered two-channel audio and the HDtracks website in 2011, this 80.3 is serving me quite well. I just wanted to say "kudos" to all who have the pleasure of owning one of these fine preamps. I owned an 80.2 before this, but it proved to be problematic in the left-surround channel once I accidentally plugged it into a 20 Amp circuit. Now there's a $2.3k mistake I will NEVER make again.

Once again, kudos to all my 80.3 brethren.

*Random Edit* I was an avid multi-channel fan for years before accidentally stumbling onto two-channel listening.

If you want free (or like ripping, classical music before 1938 is not copyrighted), you should find out if your sound card accepts ASIO drivers, then get FOOBAR player with ASIO plugin and stream BBC Radio 3 over USB2 AAC+ 320kbps or Ceski Rozhlas Vltava at same, to get amazed at the 2 highest quality radio streams in the world today. I pump Radio 3 at the office on my Dacmagic Plus/Zamp v.3./Tablette50 setup and it is amazing day after day.
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post #1004 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

, you should find out if your sound card accepts ASIO drivers, then get FOOBAR player with ASIO plugin

Foobar advises NOT to use ASIO.
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post #1005 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

I owned an 80.2 before this, but it proved to be problematic in the left-surround channel once I accidentally plugged it into a 20 Amp circuit. Now there's a $2.3k mistake I will NEVER make again.

That is strange, indeed. I have been running my 80.2 on a 20amp circuit for than a year without incident.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1006 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

I owned an 80.2 before this, but it proved to be problematic in the left-surround channel once I accidentally plugged it into a 20 Amp circuit. Now there's a $2.3k mistake I will NEVER make again.
.

BrolicBeast - Thx for your link to HDTracks, I will definitely check them out....I am confused by your statement here...why would it be problematic to plug in an 80.3 into a 20 amp circuit? I intentionally had my electrician pull 2 dedicated 20amps to my new HT for the specific purpose of driving my amps/pre...via a Panamax 5300....Thx!

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post #1007 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That is strange, indeed. I have been running my 80.2 on a 20amp circuit for than a year without incident.

Me, too. And an 80.1 and 9.8 before that.
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post #1008 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 10:05 AM
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There is nothing that the size of the circuit (15A or 20A) could do. Now if you should plug into a higher voltage circuit, (240VAC) that is another story.

--Carl
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post #1009 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

If you want free (or like ripping, classical music before 1938 is not copyrighted), you should find out if your sound card accepts ASIO drivers, then get FOOBAR player with ASIO plugin and stream BBC Radio 3 over USB2 AAC+ 320kbps or Ceski Rozhlas Vltava at same, to get amazed at the 2 highest quality radio streams in the world today. I pump Radio 3 at the office on my Dacmagic Plus/Zamp v.3./Tablette50 setup and it is amazing day after day.

Thanks for the tip on BBC3. If you use iTunes, it's in the classical radio list.

Are you recording too?

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post #1010 of 4277 Old 02-04-2012, 11:13 AM
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Ya a 20A or 15A circuit makes no difference.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #1011 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

If you do not mind sharing with us that have them on (Back-Order) what is your source of info. on the Date ?

Just trying to see when I can expect my New Gear to be installed.

Thanks,
Terry

got notification my 80.3 came in Friday night
so was just a week for me

15400 Watts of Seaton Power -Quad SubMersived
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post #1012 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That is strange, indeed. I have been running my 80.2 on a 20amp circuit for than a year without incident.

Really? hmm...I took it to an Integra repair shop, and when they couldn't fix the problem (on the third trip there), they asked if it was ever placed in a 20 amp curcuit....I told them it was in one briefly when testing new parrallel curcuits (planning for an Anthem P5), and they said that was the problem.

....I now see they must have been untruthful....perhaps just to close the ticket.
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post #1013 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by chrishet View Post

BrolicBeast - Thx for your link to HDTracks, I will definitely check them out....I am confused by your statement here...why would it be problematic to plug in an 80.3 into a 20 amp circuit? I intentionally had my electrician pull 2 dedicated 20amps to my new HT for the specific purpose of driving my amps/pre...via a Panamax 5300....Thx!

After reading that others 80.2s are running just fine on 20 Amp circuits, I believe my situation was an isolated incident. Perhaps it had to do with the way my power cable at the time (Pangea AC9)handled the current?

Oh, but an FYI on the Panamax 5300 (i also own one)....it's limited to 15amps, so I don't think you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of the extra headroom a 20 amp circuit would bring. I could be wrong though....
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post #1014 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Oh, but an FYI on the Panamax 5300 (i also own one)....it's limited to 15amps, so I don't think you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of the extra headroom a 20 amp circuit would bring. I could be wrong though....

Thx for that info...I haven't received my 5300 yet (shipped last week), but that is good to know...I'm thinking now that I will run the amp on one circuit and the rest of my gear on the other...I don't think I am under powered that is for sure!

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post #1015 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

After reading that others 80.2s are running just fine on 20 Amp circuits, I believe my situation was an isolated incident. Perhaps it had to do with the way my power cable at the time (Pangea AC9)handled the current?

Oh, but an FYI on the Panamax 5300 (i also own one)....it's limited to 15amps, so I don't think you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of the extra headroom a 20 amp circuit would bring. I could be wrong though....

The size of the circuit breakers in the load center is matched to the circuit wire size. You could have, perhaps 50 (A ridiculous number) 15 amp receptacles on either a 15 amp circuit or a 20 amp circuit. (You should not have 20 amp receptacles on a 15 amp circuit) Lighting circuits are commonly 15 amp circuits - newer homes have 20 amp wall receptacle circuits. Loads plugged into that circuit should not exceed that of the circuit capacity (15A or 20A) & could consist of either one or multiple loads up to the max of the circuit.

--Carl
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post #1016 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Foobar advises NOT to use ASIO.

No way, Foobar has the most stable ASIO plugin of
any player, so far not one crash.

The gang at www.head-fi.org swear by ASIO.

This IMHO is very educational:

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/assets...tober_2011.pdf

You may listen to 320kbps AAC+ radio with Win7 internal decoding but
you will never hear the detailed soundscene apparent with an OxygenHD
sound card or USB2 DAC, i experimented with all, DirectSound, WASAPI,
and ASIO.
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post #1017 of 4277 Old 02-05-2012, 05:30 PM
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Anyone been able to get video out of their iPhone 4 thru the USB Front input? I can get my iTunes stuff with playlists and all but can't get video out. Does that really need the Onkyo docking station?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Foobar advises NOT to use ASIO.

What ever you do make sure you don't end up using kmixer! I like WASAPI using the bass dll from Un4seen Developments.

http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?topic=11170

You guys arguing about purchasing the more expensive Oppo with the special analog section and using analog audio outs over HDMI... Think about it like your TV signal transport. Because no broadcast signal is 1080p we all need to have video conversion performed before our broadcast 720p or 1080i source comes into the TV right. The conversion can be done at three locations along the stream/transport. Inside the STB, inside the AVR and finally inside the TV. In many cases the PQ result will vary depending on what device has the better conversion. The exact same thing applies to audio transport but the conversion can be done in one of two places, inside the playback device and inside the AVR/processor.

If you guys think the converters and analog section of your cheap AVRs compares to a Blu ray player that costs the same price then you seriously need to do some research and learning about how this stuff all works. As for the converter in the 80.3, it should be very close to the oppo and depending on the analog preamp inside the 80.3 it's a tossup. My bet would be the Oppo with the right analog pre section. If you are purchasing or own 80.3 it really doesn't make much sense to purchase the more expensive Oppo IMHO. What ever you do... if you have that expensive analog section Oppo and are using analog out make sure you don't apply any ADC/DSP inside the 80.3 and run bass management inside the player!
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post #1019 of 4277 Old 02-06-2012, 02:01 AM
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if you have that expensive analog section Oppo and are using analog out make sure you don't apply any ADC/DSP inside the 80.3 and run bass management inside the player!

Thus bypassing Audyssey XT32 and ending up with an inferior sound as a result!
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post #1020 of 4277 Old 02-06-2012, 02:38 AM
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Many people seem to think "...if it looks good on paper it must sound beautiful in my listening room...". Thus EQ is evil from a purists mind because it manipulates the sound (environment). They forget, that they will only get, what the room, the speakers and the arrangement permits from its acoustics, no matter, what you throw at it.
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