Integra DHC-80.3 - Page 42 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1231 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 10:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Theresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

So removing tabs in the back of your speakers does 2 things.

1. Gets rid of imperfections in x-over frequencies thus limiting impedance drop (frequency overlap) between tweeters/mids and woofer(s).

2. Limits, yes limits the ouput frequencies from the amp/receiver. X-overs will dictate to the output of the amp which frequencies are to be reproduced, and only those will be present at the output of the amp, NOT FULL RANGE. And because of that, your headroom will somewhat increase, thus during peak demands, amp can essentially deliver slightly higher output(s).

I don't see how it could do either, the same crossovers are in place regardless of whether the jumpers are in place.
Theresa is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1232 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 11:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Again, thank you all for the useful input restating the fact that Onkyo/Integra "bi-amp" is nothing more than a glorified bi-wire using two amp channels per speaker.

Here i found more useful info, i wish i had read it before starting a useless argument:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1320530

Here is slightly more provocative thought from a guy who claims to have a lot of experience:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/30...ping-explained

With respect to that poster, he is talking pure bull$h1t when he says the crossovers will 'dictate the frequencies the amp sends to the speaker'. It's mumbo-jumbo. The preamp or AVR sends a full range signal to the speaker, period.

EDIT: It is nonsense of such a high order, I feel compelled to reproduce it in its full gibberish: "X-overs will dictate to the output of the amp which frequencies are to be reproduced, and only those will be present at the output of the amp, NOT FULL RANGE."

LOL!!! The crossovers are *passive* devices. The clue as to how they work is in that description. Bobpaule, just ignore him.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1233 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 11:39 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I don't see how it could do either, the same crossovers are in place regardless of whether the jumpers are in place.

Quite. It's pure codswallop, Theresa. (Do you have codswallop in the States? if not, be my guest It means BS....).
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1234 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 01:59 PM
Member
 
Boozehound21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm really new around here but I'm going to stick my neck out and ask some questions about the whole biamping thing. These questions assume the situation where no active xovers are in use so that each amplifier channel is driving a full range signal and has it's own power supply. Given these conditions and a first order passive speaker crossover, wouldn't the actual power driven by the MF/HF amplifier channel be significantly reduced due to the fact that while the voltage is present, very little current is flowing in the bass region as it is blocked by the capacitor? If this is true that would lead to less rail sag on the amplifier's power supply and less current flow in its output transistors. In the case of a second or third order xover I would expect a small amount of current flow in the lower frequencies due to the xover action but (without calculations) I would expect it to be small compared with the full range channel driving the entire bandwidth across the bass and HF units of the speaker. This might lead to a perceptible difference in SQ.

If all amplifier channels share a common DC rail then the sag would be there anyway since the LF channel is carrying that load. But the output transistors of the HF channel would not carry the current load of the LF in spite of the voltage signal being present.

Now that I've just proven myself to be at least somewhat of a nerd I hope another person will enlighten me. Also, I would expect entirely different results that could be far better if the proper active xovers were used, the levels set correctly, and the passive xovers in the speakers defeated. That was the original concept of biamping as I understood it.

Cheers all.
Boozehound21 is offline  
post #1235 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 02:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
SpotcheckBilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western Colorado
Posts: 689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
^^^
I suspect that you already know the answers to these questions

SB
SpotcheckBilly is offline  
post #1236 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 02:45 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

^^^
I suspect that you already know the answers to these questions

SB

There is so much information already available on the net and all of the peer-reviewed and/or scientifically valid reports I have read point to the same thing: there is no scientifically provable benefit in 'biamping' unless active external electronic crossovers are used and the speakers thus have no crossovers of their own in circuit. I can’t quite see the point in labouring the subject when the conclusions reached by respected sources are unanimously agreed. IMO, of course

Sending a full range signal to the speaker's tweeter terminals and another full range signal to the woofer terminals and using the speaker's passive crossover to sort that full range signal out, is not biamping. It really ought to have a name of its own to avoid confusion I guess. And, in fact of course, it is no different at all to sending the same full range signal to the speaker conventionally connected to one amp. As Theresa pointed out earlier, it's a waste of an amp and some speaker wire.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1237 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 03:54 PM
Member
 
Boozehound21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Agreed with Theresa and Keith. The only way I can see the most remote possibility of gain would be a situation where someone has several identical and cheaper amps available. Like two identical inexpensive receivers. I wouldn't expect any improvement at all with a top tier or even modestly good amplifier. OTOH a proper biamp setup with active xovers like maybe the Bryston model 10 might work really well. I note that in my speakers there are resistors to match levels in addition to the usual caps and inductors. To me that means some level control would be necessary between each amp on the same channel to get the proper tonal balance. That's something I'm sure the serious speaker manufacturer spent many hours figuring out. Might not be as easy as just getting a good active xovers, amps, and sailing into the improved sound sunset.
But for sure it'd be fun.
Boozehound21 is offline  
post #1238 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 03:56 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,419
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Limits, yes limits the ouput frequencies from the amp/receiver. X-overs will dictate to the output of the amp which frequencies are to be reproduced, and only those will be present at the output of the amp, NOT FULL RANGE. And because of that, your headroom will somewhat increase, thus during peak demands, amp can essentially deliver slightly higher output(s).

This statement contains errors and is poorly worded but contains an element of truth.

As others point out, sending a full-range signal to both amps results in a full-range signal being present on the output terminals as the speaker's crossover does nothing to limit the output frequencies. However, the full-range signal appears as a voltage signal and how much current (and resulting power) is output is determined by the impedance seen by each amp.

For each amp, a reasonable impedance is seen in the pass-band of the part of the speaker/network to which it is connected (e.g., 4-16 ohms in bass for the bass-connected amp or in the treble for the treble-connected amp). The amp will supply requisite power in those frequencies. However, out of the pass-band (e.g., in the treble for the bass-connected amp and in the bass for the treble-connected amp), the impedance seen by each amp is much higher, making it impossible for the amp to pass much current. (See ohm's law.)

So, the treble-connected amp is capable of providing almost all of its power in the treble range and the bass-connected amp is capable of providing almost all of its power in the bass range. The result is that "your headroom will somewhat increase, thus during peak demands, amp can essentially deliver slightly higher output(s)."

I would emphasize the slightly, btw.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1239 of 4282 Old 02-24-2012, 09:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,668
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 271
The thing that most guys don't understand is on passive bi-amping, they think they are getting double the power since they are using 2 channels. At the end of the day, it's not going to hurt anything but it's also a waste of wire unless you not using the proper gauge for your application to begin with.
They are generally the same people that think power cords and magic wire makes "a night and day" difference also. You try to explain that they house wiring is probably solid core 14 gauge to the outlets and no cord is going to change that but they will hear none of it lol

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
post #1240 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 03:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

This statement contains errors and is poorly worded but contains an element of truth.

As others point out, sending a full-range signal to both amps results in a full-range signal being present on the output terminals as the speaker's crossover does nothing to limit the output frequencies. However, the full-range signal appears as a voltage signal and how much current (and resulting power) is output is determined by the impedance seen by each amp.

For each amp, a reasonable impedance is seen in the pass-band of the part of the speaker/network to which it is connected (e.g., 4-16 ohms in bass for the bass-connected amp or in the treble for the treble-connected amp). The amp will supply requisite power in those frequencies. However, out of the pass-band (e.g., in the treble for the bass-connected amp and in the bass for the treble-connected amp), the impedance seen by each amp is much higher, making it impossible for the amp to pass much current. (See ohm's law.)

So, the treble-connected amp is capable of providing almost all of its power in the treble range and the bass-connected amp is capable of providing almost all of its power in the bass range. The result is that "your headroom will somewhat increase, thus during peak demands, amp can essentially deliver slightly higher output(s)."

I would emphasize the slightly, btw.

Kal, while I wouldn't disagree with a word you have written, in a well-conceived system that has 3dB of headroom above that required to hit reference SPLs, the very small additional headroom effect of 'fool's biamping' would be immaterial surely? And, as a corollary, if a system is already struggling to cleanly hit reference due to a lack of headroom, the small effect of this form of biamping will make no practical difference. And indeed small additional amounts of headroom can be better obtained in other ways (eg by using a higher crossover).

I say this not to to be contentious with you but because some may take your explanation above as evidence that fool's biamping is actually worthwhile. ("Kal Rubinson said it increased your headroom") Also, I am fairly certain that the person who quoted what I referred to as 'gibberish' was NOT thinking along the lines you are, and seems to believe that the speaker's crossover can somehow influence the frequencies sent by the amp!

EDIT: I did note your emphasis of the word 'slightly'
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1241 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 03:23 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

The thing that most guys don't understand is on passive bi-amping, they think they are getting double the power since they are using 2 channels. At the end of the day, it's not going to hurt anything but it's also a waste of wire unless you not using the proper gauge for your application to begin with.
They are generally the same people that think power cords and magic wire makes "a night and day" difference also. You try to explain that they house wiring is probably solid core 14 gauge to the outlets and no cord is going to change that but they will hear none of it lol

+1. Do you ever see the webzine called The Audio Critic? They often feature debunking articles on all that sort of mumbo-jumbo and have an especially amusing article called something like 'The top 10 audio lies exposed'.

I was reading, on another site, the other day an article by a guy who seemed to be an expert on his subject and I was getting engrossed in the points he was making... then further down, he showed a picture of his own setup to illustrate a point... and guess what.... he was running his speaker cables across several inverted wineglasses to keep them off the floor. Bang - in one stroke all his credibility, AFAIC, was gone. Where do these loons come from??

WRT to the $1000 power cord nonsense, they also forget that the amp actually runs on DC after the transformer and could care less about what is on the AC side!
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1242 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 05:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Theresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Haha, the infamous "cable risers" for $300 a pop on Audiogon, perfect match for these
carnivorous plant lookalike 128k cuties?

Now there's a case of a speaker enclosure that would cost a lot to build!
I wonder if it would sound better than other horns to me.
Theresa is offline  
post #1243 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 05:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SoundofMind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SE MI
Posts: 7,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Denon includes the following statement encouraging passive biamping using the AVR internal amps right in the OM, complete with an EE explanation, for those models with the "biamping" option:

"A biamp connection is to connect separate amplifiers to the tweeter terminals and woofer terminals of a speaker with biamp function. This prevents the back electromotive force (return force without output) of the woofer sent to the tweeter, whichaffects the SQ of the tweeter, and you can enjoy higher quality sound. To use the biamp connection for the front speakers select BiAmp in Amp Assign..."

Is there comment on the option in the Onk/Integra OM?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

SoundofMind is offline  
post #1244 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 06:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Theresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Denon includes the following statement encouraging passive biamping using the AVR internal amps right in the OM, complete with an EE explanation, for those models with the "biamping" option:

"A biamp connection is to connect separate amplifiers to the tweeter terminals and woofer terminals of a speaker with biamp function. This prevents the back electromotive force (return force without output) of the woofer sent to the tweeter, whichaffects the SQ of the tweeter, and you can enjoy higher quality sound. To use the biamp connection for the front speakers select BiAmp in Amp Assign..."

Is there comment on the option in the Onk/Integra OM?

It's snake oil. Onkyo puts that there so as to satisfy audiophiles who believe in the non-sense.
Theresa is offline  
post #1245 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 06:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Denon includes the following statement encouraging passive biamping using the AVR internal amps right in the OM, complete with an EE explanation, for those models with the "biamping" option:

"A biamp connection is to connect separate amplifiers to the tweeter terminals and woofer terminals of a speaker with biamp function. This prevents the back electromotive force (return force without output) of the woofer sent to the tweeter, whichaffects the SQ of the tweeter, and you can enjoy higher quality sound. To use the biamp connection for the front speakers select BiAmp in Amp Assign..."

Is there comment on the option in the Onk/Integra OM?

That weird wording might be their way of saying what Kal expressed so much better in his post above. Whatever, it won't make any difference because you can't biamp without external crossovers and modified speakers.

In my 5509 manual, there is no attempt to explain the 'benefits' of 'biamping' - they just tell you how to set it up if you want to do it. It's just marketing. I worked in advertising all my life - when your competitors introduce a feature, you have to follow suit, even if you know it's pointless, otherwise the competitor will use the extra feature to beat you over the head with. Similarly, the first to point out a feature to their market gains ownership of that feature, even if everyone else does it. "Our beer is filtered three times for purity". Well yeah - so is everyone else's, but they didn't say so, so now that becomes a 'benefit' of your product and to the detriment of theirs. IOW, it's codswallop.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1246 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 07:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
fitzcaraldo215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That weird wording might be their way of saying what Kal expressed so much better in his post above. Whatever, it won't make any difference because you can't biamp without external crossovers and modified speakers.

In my 5509 manual, there is no attempt to explain the 'benefits' of 'biamping' - they just tell you how to set it up if you want to do it. It's just marketing. I worked in advertising all my life - when your competitors introduce a feature, you have to follow suit, even if you know it's pointless, otherwise the competitor will use the extra feature to beat you over the head with. Similarly, the first to point out a feature to their market gains ownership of that feature, even if everyone else does it. "Our beer is filtered three times for purity". Well yeah - so is everyone else's, but they didn't say so, so now that becomes a 'benefit' of your product and to the detriment of theirs. IOW, it's codswallop.

Not to belabor this interminable discussion, but I think back EMF surely does exist from woofers and using two amps, whatever you wish to call it, could address that and keep it from the HF drivers, even without an external xover.

More importantly, the internal xover network in speakers may contribute to part of the sound, impedance matching or otherwise EQing it. So, I am not sure that removing the passive xover is a good idea in all cases, even with true active biamping.

That said, I agree that true biamping requires an active xover. I do not see much advantage that passive biamping can provide, and I would not waste my time attempting to deal with its cost and complexity. A better single amp with a better damping factor and load tolerance would seem a far better idea. And once again we should note that most of our systems are already biamped properly via powered subwoofers. If not, just setting all speakers to small with an appropriate xover will give you the best biamping you are likely to get.
fitzcaraldo215 is offline  
post #1247 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 07:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Theresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

More importantly, the internal xover network in speakers may contribute to part of the sound, impedance matching or otherwise EQing it. So, I am not sure that removing the passive xover is a good idea in all cases, even with true active biamping.

That said, I agree that true biamping requires an active xover. I do not see much advantage that passive biamping can provide, and I would not waste my time attempting to deal with its cost and complexity

I wouldn't usually attempt active crossovers without also designing and building my own speakers (although I do not build enclosures, good enclosures are available). The speaker is designed with it's built in crossover, it wouldn't be the same in most instances, although I have seen posts of those using active crossovers with their Magnepans. There are exceptions to every rule. Active crossovers (miniDSPs) made speaker building much more fun for me. My speakers also sound better with the active crossovers.
Theresa is offline  
post #1248 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 08:13 AM
Member
 
CElee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Kleinburg, ON
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post


More importantly, the internal xover network in speakers may contribute to part of the sound, impedance matching or otherwise EQing it. So, I am not sure that removing the passive xover is a good idea in all cases, even with true active biamping.

I agree that the internal passive crossover has much to do with the sound the speaker produces. But to not remove the passive xover when trying to do true biamping, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of the active xover?
CElee is offline  
post #1249 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 08:18 AM
Member
 
dhodges's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Oak Ridge, NC, USA
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have been looking for one of these. Can anyone suggest where I can purchase one?



Thanks.
dhodges is offline  
post #1250 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 09:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SoundofMind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SE MI
Posts: 7,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That weird wording might be their way of saying what Kal expressed so much better in his post above. Whatever, it won't make any difference because you can't biamp without external crossovers and modified speakers...In my 5509 manual, there is no attempt to explain the 'benefits' of 'biamping' -

It's one thing for them to explain how to hook it up, I'm just surprised Denon offers this rationale, which is why I posted it.

I very much appreciate Kal's post, which is consistent with my understanding. The take-home message I get from it is similar to yours.

IF the amp driving the speaker is already being taxed close to its limit, there just might be a small benefit from separately wiring the tweeter side of the crossover to another amp. But the tweeter uses such a small amount of power compared to the woofer, it is just not a relevant issue for most folks. Even if you indeed are maxing out your amp, passsive biamping is not an effective solution. If you need more amp power, get a more powerful amp!

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

SoundofMind is offline  
post #1251 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 09:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,419
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

It's one thing for them to explain how to hook it up, I'm just surprised Denon offers this rationale, which is why I posted it.

I very much appreciate Kal's post, which is consistent with my understanding. The take-home message I get from it is similar to yours.

IF the amp driving the speaker is already being taxed close to its limit, there just might be a small benefit from separately wiring the tweeter side of the crossover to another amp. But the tweeter uses such a small amount of power compared to the woofer, it is just not a relevant issue for most folks. Even if you indeed are maxing out your amp, passsive biamping is not an effective solution. If you need more amp power, get a more powerful amp!

Agreed. As a long-time academic, I was compelled to offer my explication since neither a summary acceptance nor dismissal of the original statement is correct.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1252 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 10:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Agreed. As a long-time academic, I was compelled to offer my explication since neither a summary acceptance nor dismissal of the original statement is correct.

You are too generous, Kal The only thing he said that resonated with your scientific explication was "the headroom might increase" but he came to that conclusion by entirely erroneous means. And even then, as others have pointed out, if you need more headroom, the real answer is to get a more powerful amp. I just feared that you might be taken out of context as a supporter of this so-called biamping and that what we will hear resonating throughout eternity is "Kal said it was a good idea" But I think we're all pretty much on the same page.
bslep likes this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1253 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 01:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,419
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You are too generous, Kal The only thing he said that resonated with your scientific explication was "the headroom might increase" but he came to that conclusion by entirely erroneous means. And even then, as others have pointed out, if you need more headroom, the real answer is to get a more powerful amp. I just feared that you might be taken out of context as a supporter of this so-called biamping and that what we will hear resonating throughout eternity is "Kal said it was a good idea" But I think we're all pretty much on the same page.

Sure but I prefer to get a full disclosure out in this thread and not worry about being misquoted by others. I am getting used to that.
bslep likes this.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1254 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 01:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 17,157
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked: 1472
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #1255 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 02:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
njfoses's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Can the 80.3 stream flac files from a win 7 pc (wirelessly from pc to 80.3 connected to same network?) Do i need foobar or other software or can i share the folder on my pc and browse the files from the 80.3 and play?
njfoses is offline  
post #1256 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 02:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
njfoses's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Just finished my entire install.

Some tips i would like to share:

1. Harmony users get TX-NR5009 loaded or you will not have "Net/USB/DirectionUp" and the other 9 similar commands to navigate in the NET function.

2. For reference players with superior (Sabre or AKM) DACs and both RCA 7.1 and
balanced/XLR connections need to set up two inputs for the player, and respectively assign "Stereo" and "Multichannel" in the "Listening Mode" menu of each input.

3. Fans go over back left vent openings, just like in the DHC-9.9. If you look from above it also makes sense, as the there is a nice cavity under that slot, as opposed to the right back, where a PCB is right under blocking air flow.

4. I have a touchscreen Samsung cash register display that i use with my Escient DVD server, and it finally dawned on me to get $5 S-Video cables from WalMart while i was out on a milk run, now i can fire up my player and watch disc info on the screen, also browse the internet while the kids take over the projector. The S-Video on the DHC-80.3 works strictly as a passthrough, will not display even setup info (i am sure most here know that, i did not).

Audyssey XT32 works great with bitstreams from my LG Vudu player, makes movies shine. Bitstreaming DSD from the DVD-A1UDCI not so hot, that player has a superior analog stage, and it became quickly obvious with the wide soundstage and instrument detail and localization, just straight from the player. 2-channel layer, esp vocals shine via the XLRs. After all 1/3 of the A1's circuitry is occupied with the analog stage and dedicated tranny.

Oddly i also tried DTSHD in player decoding for several movies, and going back and forth i agree that XT32 with the bitstream to the processor has an edge for movie material.

Who wants to relieve me of the Oppo DV-980H to bitstream their SACDs?

Have you had any issues with your harmony programmed as a nr5009?
njfoses is offline  
post #1257 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 04:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
g_bartman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: cleveland, oh
Posts: 3,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 54
All this bi-amp talk has raised a question. I have some Carver al III's that I am bi-amping. The reason is that the ribbon section of the speakers is very inefficient. I'm using a Mcintosh mc252 for the ribbons and a B&K amp to drive the woofers. Am I bypassing the internal crossover wiring my speakers this way?

g_bartman is offline  
post #1258 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 05:03 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,419
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

All this bi-amp talk has raised a question. I have some Carver al III's that I am bi-amping. The reason is that the ribbon section of the speakers is very inefficient. I'm using a Mcintosh mc252 for the ribbons and a B&K amp to drive the woofers. Am I bypassing the internal crossover wiring my speakers this way?

Not unless you extirpated it.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1259 of 4282 Old 02-25-2012, 05:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
g_bartman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: cleveland, oh
Posts: 3,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Not unless you extirpated it.

That's what I thought Kal. Thanks for the reply

g_bartman is offline  
post #1260 of 4282 Old 02-26-2012, 11:47 AM
Member
 
Sparcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: DFW Metro, Texas
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Its been interesting to read about bi-amping within this thread... I have some thoughts to pass along.

Last September, I pulled the trigger and bought my first "new" audio system in 25 years. What I used in those in those 25 years worked for me. However, with HT and BD films becoming common place, I thought now would be good time to make the leap into a new, decent HT/music setup. I spent the prior 10, 12 months looking and learning, trying to figure out how to get from A to B. I also have a somewhat of a snooty audiophile friend who I would talk with about the various aspects of the audio equipment I was reading about. This friend is a tech head in truest sense... EE, worked in oil and gas industry running drilling core sample through his sound pressure lab. An added plus was that he has a really good 2 channel audio setup that sounds very good to my ears. So, after all the research was done (very hard to do in today's world where dealers are far and few between), I decided to go this way... DHC-80.3, Parasound 2 ch and 5 ch amps (to bi-amp the font mains) and Paradigm Studio 100 for the front mains, plus all the other attendant stuff.

Last October, checks were cut and equipment arrived. One weekend, I set it all up, with bi-amping the front mains. Sure enough, all was well... The sound was all that I was hoping for. However, I was a bit puzzled about the Audyssey setup in regards to bi-amping and the front mains. What I was getting wasn't what I was expecting. Sounded fine, but... Then I read articles that the DHC-80.3 did not have bi-amping correctly enabled. OK, this must explain what I was experiencing.

I think it was over the XMAS holiday's I updated the firmware that was suppose to fix the issue of bi-amping. I re-ran the Audyssey setup routine, playing special attention to the setup before running the routine. Once again, I did not get what I expected, that is, that Audyssey would run its test through the lower side and then the higher side of the bi-amped front mains. Again, I double checked to make sure everything was correct (yeah, everything I could think of to check was checked and double checked). I re-ran the Audyssey setup routine... Audyssey simply wasn't going to run a test through the low side and then the high side. I concluded that my understanding of the Audyssey bi-amp setup routines were incorrect, especially after reading more about the Audyssey system and talking with others. Still, the 2 ch music and the 5 ch surround setup sounded great. I wasn't displeased with the sound; I was however, displeased with the idea that my thinking was flawed. That some conclusion was incorrect. And decisions were made...

All the while, I was always concerned that I did not have dedicated power driving everything and that I was getting close to the max amp draw for the circuit I was using. I really didn't care that I may have wasted dollars for 2 channels that wasn't "working" like I thought it would. So after a couple of weeks, I tore down the system and pulled out the 2 ch amp and setup the system using only the 5 ch amp. Mostly, I wanted to lower my power draw more than anything else, as oppose to seeking a "better" sound.

This is the kicker... once the 5 channel setup was physically completed and the Audyssey setup was re-run without bi-amping the front mains, I began noticing a different sound. Wishful thinking. Exhaustion, etc. Voodoo imagination I thought. The next day I started running various BD films and various 2 ch. music through the system... it sounded better. Much better. Audibly better. Its been a month or so after the change and the media I know well, it all sounds very, very good. And yes, I still think it sounds better without bi-amping.

Except for the popcorn, I find it hard to think of a reason to see a film in a theater nowadays.

Sparcs
Sparcs is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Onkyo Integra

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off