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post #1351 of 4290 Old 03-01-2012, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

You should be able to plug a 3.5mm stereo/mono trigger cable directly from the wireless extender directly into the IR IN on the rear of the Integra without any issues. If you are using a Harmony, isnt the Integra in their database?

It is likely in the database, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all possible commands are. I like to know what is possible :-)

I ask about the IR pinout as Oppo provides that information for the BDP-83, and mentions the possibility of damage if incorrectly cabled. There doesn't seem to be a consistent IR input pinout across components from different manufacturers. I want to do this same thing for all of my components that have an IR in and/or passthrough, so I am trying to get definitive information for each...
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post #1352 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Instead of listening to us jabber on about our respective beliefs, why not try it yourself. It should not be that hard to borrow a couple of runs of the same cable for your main speakers. Listen in stereo yourself, and let us know if you think it is worth it...

Actually, Fitz, it's NOT that easy to do, or should I say NOT that easy to do PROPERLY, which is precisely why we're having this conversation. IOW part of the reason this comes up again and again is that someone is told that biwiring improves the SQ, "tries" it (with no controlled testing) and sure enough "hears" the difference. So it must really "work"!

The subtler the sonic benefit and the longer it takes to switch between A and B (and this particular switch out takes some time), the more subject to conscious and unconscious bias are the results of the audio test. Blind level-matched A/B/x testing goes a long way toward counteracting such bias. This is not a 1 man job.

If someone could point me to properly controlled tests that show such a benefit from biwiring or passive biamping, Iwould then go through the considerable trouble of properly testing it myself. Absent that, I have better things to do with my time.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1353 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 04:21 AM
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post #1354 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galvin View Post

It is likely in the database, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all possible commands are. I like to know what is possibe :-)

I ask about the IR pinout as Oppo provides that information for the BDP-83, and mentions the possibility of damage if incorrectly cabled. There doesn't seem to be a consistent IR input pinout across components from different manufacturers. I want to do this same thing for all of my components that have an IR in and/or passthrough, so I am trying to get definitive information for each...

I do this for all my devices and there is no such thing as a specific IR PIN out (it's only 1 ring). The IR blaster controls the devices by sending a command through the mono connection off the 3.5mm trigger cable (mono or stereo works). Just do not have the IR Blaster face your device and cable connected to the back at the same time. A IR signal and a signal receive by the 3.5mm cable will cancel each other out and you device won't do anything.

Before i just bought the INtegra, this was how everthing was controlled, even my Oppo 95, through my Harmony 1100/Link/890.

All commands on the device are on the Harmony site. As long as they are on the remote control they are on the site. Now, saying that, there might be some hidden commands that aren't on the remote (like maybe Dynamic Volume) that you might need to get in touch with Logitech or even Onkyo to find out.

Good luck.
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post #1355 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

If someone could point me to properly controlled tests that show such a benefit from biwiring or passive biamping, Iwould then go through the considerable trouble of properly testing it myself.

There aren't any. There are no real benefits to biwiring or passive biamping, so it's unlikely anyone will have been able to tell the difference in ABX texts. Personally, like you, I think there are far better and more productive ways to spend one's time in the pursuit of better sound.


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post #1356 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galvin View Post

It is likely in the database, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all possible commands are. I like to know what is possibe :-)

See this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1021

Download the attached files. Onkyo codes seem to apply across all their units. I have added various discrete codes for DSPs, for example, using the file attached to this post and they work fine with my 5509 and 5007 before it.


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post #1357 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

See this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1021

Download the attached files. Onkyo codes seem to apply across all their units. I have added various discrete codes for DSPs, for example, using the file attached to this post and they work fine with my 5509 and 5007 before it.

Good stuff, thanks Keith
I really wanted those Dynamic Volume codes.
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post #1358 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


The subtler the sonic benefit and the longer it takes to switch between A and B (and this particular switch out takes some time), the more subject to conscious and unconscious bias are the results of the audio test. Blind level-matched A/B/x testing goes a long way toward counteracting such bias. This is not a 1 man job.

I agree, but if that is what happens, it tells you it is a tiny difference not worth pursuing. You just have to be as honest as you can with yourself in defining what difference you are hearing. But, be prepared for some very small differences, if any.

There is no quick or easy way to test speaker cables with the same amp or speakers. You just have to reconnect and suffer the time delay in doing so. I have done it and it is no fun. It requires a great deal of concentration

ABX testing would be of no use to you in speaker cable testing. Actually, I do not think it is of much use at all, except where differences are fairly large and obvious. It has a bias against identifying the small differences that typify much of audio. The statistical significance it requires to positively establish a difference is a tough hurdle. The are few ABX published test findings that found much of a difference in anything. Also, it does not address the question of preference, just of statistically significant difference. But, things can be different with neither being preferred.

In any case, I think it would be foolish to buy or not buy into biwiring based on online forums. You just have to listen for yourself in the end in your own system and go with your gut.
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post #1359 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

See this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1021

Download the attached files. Onkyo codes seem to apply across all their units. I have added various discrete codes for DSPs, for example, using the file attached to this post and they work fine with my 5509 and 5007 before it.

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for...
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post #1360 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post


ABX testing would be of no use to you in speaker cable testing. Actually, I do not think it is of much use at all, except where differences are fairly large and obvious. It has a bias against identifying the small differences that typify much of audio.

No, you are wrong, ABX testing has absolutely no bias at all. No matter how large or small the differences may or may not be, there is no bias running a ABX test! And that is why so many self proclaimed "audiophiles", hate even the mention of ABX testing, simply because it can prove their wild claims and beliefs are wrong.
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post #1361 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 11:01 AM
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Well, February is over. Is there a patch to enable Audyssey Pro yet?
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post #1362 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 12:18 PM
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it was postponed till early March. I guess that means any date up until after the 15th/16th.
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post #1363 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

No, you are wrong, ABX testing has absolutely no bias at all. No matter how large or small the differences may or may not be, there is no bias running a ABX test! And that is why so many self proclaimed "audiophiles", hate even the mention of ABX testing, simply because it can prove their wild claims and beliefs are wrong.

I am not going to further argue the matter, especially here in a thread in which it does not belong. But, I disagree. I am still looking for ABX tests that confirmed a difference, which are few and far between. Note that a negative outcome does not mean that there is no difference. It only means that the difference did not meet the threshold of statistical significance. So, my bottom line is that subjective listening sessions or reviews tend to overstate differences, whereas ABX understates them. But, I will not belabor this discussion with further responses. We will get nowhere.
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post #1364 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

I agree, but if that is what happens, it tells you it is a tiny difference not worth pursuing. You just have to be as honest as you can with yourself in defining what difference you are hearing. But, be prepared for some very small differences, if any.

There is no quick or easy way to test speaker cables with the same amp or speakers. You just have to reconnect and suffer the time delay in doing so. I have done it and it is no fun. It requires a great deal of concentration/

Nonsense. It is perfectly simple to connect cables through a switch and perform proper ABX tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

ABX testing would be of no use to you in speaker cable testing. Actually, I do not think it is of much use at all, except where differences are fairly large and obvious. It has a bias against identifying the small differences that typify much of audio. The statistical significance it requires to positively establish a difference is a tough hurdle. The are few ABX published test findings that found much of a difference in anything. Also, it does not address the question of preference, just of statistically significant difference. But, things can be different with neither being preferred.

In any case, I think it would be foolish to buy or not buy into biwiring based on online forums. You just have to listen for yourself in the end in your own system and go with your gut.

It never ceases to amuse me how double blind testing is totally, absolutely 100% accepted in all other forms of science, but is still resisted by the so-called audiophile community. If the logic you describe in your post was applied to medicines, we'd all be dead now.


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post #1365 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by johnla View Post

no, you are wrong, abx testing has absolutely no bias at all. No matter how large or small the differences may or may not be, there is no bias running a abx test! And that is why so many self proclaimed "audiophiles", hate even the mention of abx testing, simply because it can prove their wild claims and beliefs are wrong.

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post #1366 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There aren't any. There are no real benefits to biwiring or passive biamping, so it's unlikely anyone will have been able to tell the difference in ABX texts. Personally, like you, I think there are far better and more productive ways to spend one's time in the pursuit of better sound.

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I currently own the Marantz 7005 processor. I understand the Integra 80.3 has multi xt32. Other than that what else will this unit do better than my Marantz? I also understand it applys eq to each sub out individually verses both together like the Marantz.
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post #1369 of 4290 Old 03-02-2012, 11:43 PM
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I appreciate both sides of this abx conundrum but the objectivist vs subjectivist argument wont go away anytime soon I surmise Didnt take long to find this vv googling ''why abx tests are wrong '' . Hydrogenaudio forums tend to take the opposite stance -bits are bits and 16/44.1 is all you need if you apply dither .. abx tests prove this..

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue56/abx.htm

Anyway this is off topic and just post this as a read ;everyone can take what they want from it;no drill here
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post #1370 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 04:20 AM
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Ok, setup Audyssey last night but didn't do any real testing of movies. So i can't compare to Marantz AV7005 just yet. But I did pop in a CD and was listening to music.

I think I'm going to be keeping my Oppo 95, I'm not really enjoying the 2ch music from the Onkyo.

Things I like about the Oppo.
- Pinpoint accuracy (imaging?) - I know exactly where instruments and vocals are coming from. I can literally go over there and sit right next to them.
- Everything is more detailed
- Bass is tight

What i didn't like about the Integra
- It pretends to have a wider soundstage. I only say this is because i can't pinpoint exactly where anything is coming from. So if a piano is playing on the left side of the stage, it comes from somewhere on the left.

That's so far my take on the Integra on 2ch music.
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post #1371 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

Ok, setup Audyssey last night but didn't do any real testing of movies. So i can't compare to Marantz AV7005 just yet. But I did pop in a CD and was listening to music.

I think I'm going to be keeping my Oppo 95, I'm not really enjoying the 2ch music from the Onkyo.

Things I like about the Oppo.
- Pinpoint accuracy (imaging?) - I know exactly where instruments and vocals are coming from. I can literally go over there and sit right next to them.
- Everything is more detailed
- Bass is tight

What i didn't like about the Integra
- It pretends to have a wider soundstage. I only say this is because i can't pinpoint exactly where anything is coming from. So if a piano is playing on the left side of the stage, it comes from somewhere on the left.

That's so far my take on the Integra on 2ch music.

I'm not following your post. You say the Oppo 95 gives you very precise imaging but the 80.3 doesn't. So how are you playing the Oppo 95 if it isn't through the 80.3?

Are you listening to CD through HDMI, with XT32 engaged? This is by far the best way to enjoy music through the 80.3 since the benefits of XT32 far, far outweigh the benefits of minor differences between DACs (if you are using analog M/Ch with the Oppo).

If you can clarify your post, there are a lot of 80.3 users here who are getting superb results from their 80.3 when used with music sources and I am sure they will be able to advise you. Certainly, the imaging of the 80.3 is one of its strong points IMO and IME (I have the identical 5509).


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post #1372 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'm not following your post. You say the Oppo 95 gives you very precise imaging but the 80.3 doesn't. So how are you playing the Oppo 95 if it isn't through the 80.3?

Are you listening to CD through HDMI, with XT32 engaged? This is by far the best way to enjoy music through the 80.3 since the benefits of XT32 far, far outweigh the benefits of minor differences between DACs (if you are using analog M/Ch with the Oppo).

If you can clarify your post, there are a lot of 80.3 users here who are getting superb results from their 80.3 when used with music sources and I am sure they will be able to advise you. Certainly, the imaging of the 80.3 is one of its strong points IMO and IME (I have the identical 5509).

agreed, must be something lost in his wording or set-up

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On the Oppo I'm using the stereo XLR into the Integra and back out again in direct mode. I'm assuming no processing is being done by the Integra.
Vs
Integra receiving a bitstream from the Oppo also playing in direct.

I'm assuming audyssey audyssey is not being engaged in either. Subs are not engaged.

If I'm doing something wrong, please help.
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I have a 80.3 set up with Audyssey 9.1 with wides and highs. Almost all listening modes are set up in Audyssey DSX or PLII Movie or PLII Music DSX. Love the sound system.

After using the system for a while I am finding I frequently have to power the 80.3 on and off in order to get the wide speakers to come back to the pristine audio sound again. The symptoms are either intermittent sound or slightly distorted sounds form the wides. Changing listening mode to something else and back to DSX doesn't help; nor does changing sources (i.e. DirecTV to DVD and back).

I think it gets into this situation after multiple changes of sources (I have DirecTV, AppleTV, Oppo95, and sometimes I use off the air antenna to get local HD channels like PBS because DirecTV does carry some of the local HD versions.)

Anyone has similar issues? It looks like somehow Audyssey needs a "reset"...

It's annoying having to power down and up since the amps have to go through their remote power up delays, etc. and the wife asks why I am doing that....

Scott
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post #1375 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

On the Oppo I'm using the stereo XLR into the Integra and back out again in direct mode. I'm assuming no processing is being done by the Integra.
Vs
Integra receiving a bitstream from the Oppo also playing in direct.

I'm assuming audyssey audyssey is not being engaged in either. Subs are not engaged.

If I'm doing something wrong, please help.

Wonder why you are hearing difference, on both my 80.1 and 80.3 fed by Oppo, I find the sound always much better bit streamed in.
Tighter imaging, more depth and soundfield
I never use direct , bit streamed in with full audyssey processing
is way to go

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post #1376 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

Wonder why you are hearing difference, on both my 80.1 and 80.3 fed by Oppo, I find the sound always much better bit streamed in.
Tighter imaging, more depth and soundfield
I never use direct , bit streamed in with full audyssey processing
is way to go

So are you saying I should try leaving it in stereo mode to enable audyssey and bypass direct? That would enable audysey right?
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post #1377 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CElee View Post

So are you saying I should try leaving it in stereo mode to enable audyssey and bypass direct? That would enable audysey right?

yes , but still curious why sound degrading in your first post,
first time using Audyssey? if so read the set-up guide
sometimes takes a few attempts to get hang of it

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post #1378 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 06:36 AM
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yes , but still curious why sound degrading in your first post,
first time using Audyssey? if so read the set-up guide
sometimes takes a few attempts to get hang of it

Is it really sound degrading or is the Oppo better?

No, I used audyssey before with my Marantz av7005. But that doesn't necessary mean I got it right.
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post #1379 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

Is it really sound degrading or is the Oppo better?

No, I used audyssey before with my Marantz av7005. But that doesn't necessary mean I got it right.

It may be better but would not account for the difference you described
total loss of imaging etc,
Sounds like something else in play

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post #1380 of 4290 Old 03-03-2012, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

It may be better but would not account for the difference you described
total loss of imaging etc,
Sounds like something else in play

Will run audyssey again tonight. But I can't imagine audyssey having anything to do with it considering I ran it in direct mode, which disabled audyssey.

So during my test, wouldn't it just mean I prefer the dac's from the Oppo without processing? Ill try with audyssey tonight and see if there's a difference.

I do have a question since reading the audyssey setup guide. I have a riser, now when I measure the lower floor, should the mic be raised higher to match the height that it is on my riser? I read that the height of the mic shouldn't change much.
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