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post #1531 of 4277 Old 03-10-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Try setting the Reference Level Offset to 5dB. That will mean that at -10 on the MV you get the same DEQ adjustment as if you were at -5 with a RLO of 0dB.

Coincidentally, I am about to read a review of a PJ with eshift - might even be the same as yours. I'll report back later.

Edit: eshift is a form of up scaling in itself. It isn't 4k. But it will handle a native 4k source. So it won't work with an upscaled 4k input from the 80.3.
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post #1532 of 4277 Old 03-10-2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Edit: eshift is a form of up scaling in itself. It isn't 4k. But it will handle a native 4k source. So it won't work with an upscaled 4k input from the 80.3.

I'm sure you meant that it will not handle a native 4K source. It will not.

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post #1533 of 4277 Old 03-10-2012, 12:29 PM
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post #1534 of 4277 Old 03-11-2012, 07:49 AM
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I just finished running Audyssey for the first time. Like some have mentioned here, I too did not likethe Dynamic EQ turned on. So I kept that setting off along with Dynamic volume, for my initial listening time.

I was wondering what setting you guys are using for playing SACDs. I send PCM at 88.2 kHz from my oppo to the 80.3 via hdmi, but there is a setting in the 80.3 called DSD DAC Direct ON or OFF. What is the recommended setting.

Paul
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post #1535 of 4277 Old 03-11-2012, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

I just finished running Audyssey for the first time. Like some have mentioned here, I too did not likethe Dynamic EQ turned on. So I kept that setting off along with Dynamic volume, for my initial listening time.

I was wondering what setting you guys are using for playing SACDs. I send PCM at 88.2 kHz from my oppo to the 80.3 via hdmi, but there is a setting in the 80.3 called DSD DAC Direct ON or OFF. What is the recommended setting.

Paul

DSD DAC Direct is intended to pass a DSD input directly to the DAC bypassing all DSP, including Audyssey. There are three arrangements, ignoring the analog options:
1. DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.
2. DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of DSD DAC Direct.
3. PCM input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.

You are now using (3). I recommend (1).

Kal Rubinson

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1536 of 4277 Old 03-11-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

DSD DAC Direct is intended to pass a DSD input directly to the DAC bypassing all DSP, including Audyssey. There are three arrangements, ignoring the analog options:
1. DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.
2. DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of DSD DAC Direct.
3. PCM input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.

You are now using (3). I recommend (1).

I second the nomination. #1 is the best sounding alternative and lets Audyssey do its thing.
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post #1537 of 4277 Old 03-11-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Goff View Post


I'm sure you meant that it will not handle a native 4K source. It will not.

I don't remember any fixed white/blu/whatever screen cycling trough all the available output resolutions from the pre on my jvc rs45... maybe the jvc can sync a 4k source even if it doesn't have a 4k resolution. I will check it later.

Ciao,
Fabio.
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post #1538 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

... Like some have mentioned here, I too did not likethe Dynamic EQ turned on. So I kept that setting off along with Dynamic volume, for my initial listening time...

DEQ requires tweaking by the use of RLO for music and other sources such as TV. DEQ was designed to restore the overall tonal balance and surround bubble for film reference level audio when you turn the MV knob down from 0. It boosts the bass and surrounds (and treble slightly too). Like most folks I love it for film but a few folks prefer a RLO of 5 for film, mostly to tame the surrounds. For 2Ch music listening in Stereo, the needed RLO is usually 10-15, depending on the recording. When I am critically listening to HiRes well-recorded music I always listen in native format (no upconversion of 2 ch to Neo:6 music or PLII music or DSX wides, etc) and usually just turn the music up and DEQ OFF. It's too much trouble to dial DEQ in, especially for MC music because maintaining the surrounds balance is even trickier.

DVol should never be used for critical listening of film or any music. It compresses the dynamics for your convenience and is thus useful for commercials on TV or if folks are sleeping in the next room.
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I was wondering what setting you guys are using for playing SACDs. I send PCM at 88.2 kHz from my oppo to the 80.3 via hdmi, but there is a setting in the 80.3 called DSD DAC Direct ON or OFF. What is the recommended setting. Paul

I agree with the guys above, I have found that sendind DSD to be decoded in a capable processor to consistently yield best SQ. That is what is recommended by OEMs as well. Lastly, I have Audyssey MultEQXT32 on for everything, all the time.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1539 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


I agree with the guys above, I have found that sendind DSD to be decoded in a capable processor to consistently yield best SQ. That is what is recommended by OEMs as well. Lastly, I have Audyssey MultEQXT32 on for everything, all the time.

It's interesting how some people prefer to use analogue for music and bypass XT32, in the belief that the DACs in their player might be superior to the DACs in their AVR or prepro. Turning off XT32 seems to me to be like removing all the treatments and traps from your room before listening to a CD Nobody would do that, but they are happy to remove the next best thing, XT32. Odd.
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post #1540 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

DSD DAC Direct is intended to pass a DSD input directly to the DAC bypassing all DSP, including Audyssey. There are three arrangements, ignoring the analog options:
1. DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.
2. DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of DSD DAC Direct.
3. PCM input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.

You are now using (3). I recommend (1).

Just another follow up to Kal's and my recommendation. If you select #1, be sure that the Integra is in the DSD sound mode (not DSDDirect or other modes) as displayed on the front panel. DSD Direct will shut off Audyssey, speaker distance correction and bass management, as previously explained. Other sound modes will introduce artificial extra processing, as opposed to giving you exactly what is on the disk. But, it is your choice, of course.
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post #1541 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 07:00 AM
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Thank you guys for the responses, I have had Audyssey MultEQXT32 "ON" for everything I have listened to (CD, SACD, BD, etc), for the few days that I have had this unit and much prefer the sound that way. I did turn off DEQ as I stated above.

As for the SACD question.....Kal Rubinson and others recommended setting option # 1 which is to send DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.
Ok, I will try that but no one addressed the question of what the setting should be on the 80.3 [DSD DAC Direct ON or OFF]? If I understood Kal's post correctly, I should set this option to OFF. Is this correct?

Thanks
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post #1542 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Just another follow up to Kal's and my recommendation. If you select #1, be sure that the Integra is in the DSD sound mode (not DSDDirect or other modes) as displayed on the front panel. DSD Direct will shut off Audyssey, speaker distance correction and bass management, as previously explained. Other sound modes will introduce artificial extra processing, as opposed to giving you exactly what is on the disk. But, it is your choice, of course.

So what should the display panel on the 80.3 read, to make sure that the Integra is in the DSD sound mode and not DSD Direct or other modes. Assuming you are sending DSD from your player to the 80.3 and making use of Audyssey/DSP. Should it just display DSD?


Paul
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post #1543 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

Thank you guys for the responses, I have had Audyssey MultEQXT32 "ON" for everything I have listened to (CD, SACD, BD, etc), for the few days that I have had this unit and much prefer the sound that way. I did turn off DEQ as I stated above.

As for the SACD question.....Kal Rubinson and others recommended setting option # 1 which is to send DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.
Ok, I will try that but no one addressed the question of what the setting should be on the 80.3 [DSD DAC Direct ON or OFF]? If I understood Kal's post correctly, I should set this option to OFF. Is this correct?

Thanks

Off, of course.

Kal Rubinson

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1544 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

Thank you guys for the responses, I have had Audyssey MultEQXT32 "ON" for everything I have listened to (CD, SACD, BD, etc), for the few days that I have had this unit and much prefer the sound that way. I did turn off DEQ as I stated above.

As for the SACD question.....Kal Rubinson and others recommended setting option # 1 which is to send DSD input from the Oppo to the 80.3 and use of Audyssey/DSP.
Ok, I will try that but no one addressed the question of what the setting should be on the 80.3 [DSD DAC Direct ON or OFF]? If I understood Kal's post correctly, I should set this option to OFF. Is this correct?

Thanks

I had similar questions/confusion about the DAC Direct setting. I did some testing and learned that that the DAC Direct setting only takes affect when you are using Direct mode. And if you read this part of the manual very closely you will understand what it means. The manual is very passive and poorly written.

There are two settings in this sub menu, one that deals with bass management and the other is DSD DAC Direct. At the very end of the description of each of these settings it states "... , when listening in Direct mode.". I don't have the manual in front of me so I'm not sure if that is exact word for word, but it's close.

So it is basically saying if you are listening in Direct mode, setting the DAC Direct setting to on will mean the DSD will be decoded as is with out first being converted to PCM. And as stated in other posts this will bypass all DSP processing including Audyssey. What it does not clearly state is that the setting has no effect when not listening in Direct mode.

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post #1545 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Let's look at it this way: everyone who buys an 80.3 knows that it has 9 channels. Therefore it will definitely not be able to deliver 11 channels in any way, shape or form.

Criticising a 9 channel prepro for not having 11 channels is like criticising it because it won't make toast.

No. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding here. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize a manufacturer's top-line, ~$3,000 model for omitting features or functionality- be them not being able to send (2) channel digital signals to other zones or not being able to output 11 channels.

Simply labeling the unit a "9.2 channel" model doesn't lessen or negate that baseline "complaint" of a top-of-the-line model. This dialogue has advanced beyond the "I thought a 9.2 channel pre/pro could output 11" contention, which is not relevant.

9 channels is a limitation to some. It's as simple as that. It's a valid opinion for someone to have when considering a surround processor at this price point in 2012. Because you (or even many others) do not necessarily value it doesn't make it invalid.

Again, I can assure you that there are more than a few who purchased the 4311 specifically to run 11 channel arrays.

And again, everyone realizes these folks do not number in the millions...either do those who spend $3,000 on pre/pros.

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post #1546 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

No. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding here. It is perfectly legitimate to criticize a manufacturer's top-line, ~$3,000 model for omitting features or functionality- be them not being able to send (2) channel digital signals to other zones or not being able to output 11 channels.

You're right - I don't get it. Someone buys a unit that clearly states it has 9 channels and then bemoans the fact it doesn't have 11? I just find that strange.

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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Simply labeling the unit a "9.2 channel" model doesn't lessen or negate that baseline "complaint" of a top-of-the-line model. This dialogue has advanced beyond the "I thought a 9.2 channel pre/pro could output 11" contention, which is not relevant.

Seems to me the way to go with this is to buy the unit that does what one wants it to do. Not to whine about the unit not doing something it was never meant to.

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9 channels is a limitation to some. It's as simple as that. It's a valid opinion for someone to have when considering a surround processor at this price point in 2012. Because you (or even many others) do not necessarily value it doesn't make it invalid.


What is invalid is buying the 80.3 if one needs 11 channels.

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Again, I can assure you that there are more than a few who purchased the 4311 specifically to run 11 channel arrays.

Yes, I'd imagine so. What they didn't do was buy the 80.3 and then complain that it only does 9 channels.

It's just not a valid criticism to criticise something for not doing what it was never designed to do in the first place.
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post #1547 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Off, of course.

Thanks Kal..... Funny we are on this topic of DSD, i came across this small write up......what is this all about:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/featu...c-players.html.

Paul
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post #1548 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


You're right - I don't get it. Someone buys a unit that clearly states it has 9 channels and then bemoans the fact it doesn't have 11? I just find that strange.

Seems to me the way to go with this is to buy the unit that does what one wants it to do. Not to whine about the unit not doing something it was never meant to.

What is invalid is buying the 80.3 if one needs 11 channels.

Yes, I'd imagine so. What they didn't do was buy the 80.3 and then complain that it only does 9 channels.

It's just not a valid criticism to criticise something for not doing what it was never designed to do in the first place.

Yes, I would guarantee you that you're the ONLY one on this thread who doesn't understand.

No one (at least on this thread that I've read) has BOUGHT ANYTHING, EXPECTING ANYTHING. The point- and only point- is that the top-level Integra pre pro doesn't offer 11 channel output. It appears nothing will acquaint you with that simple reality though. And I'm not whining- I asked a simple question because I was considering the unit- you're the one dragging this out by turning this into an absolutey foolish, absurd ordeal by either willfully or ignorantly misrepresenting what I've said.

It'd be like chevy putting a v-6 in the corvette and then saying people's criticisms that it's not a v- 8 are not valid because it's a car with a V-6. Well, no $hit. But of course it's not about the ENGINE, per se, but the top of the line CAR and what they expect at this price-point in 2012. Guess that means their crticisms wouldn't be valid.

And sure leaving off channels 10 and 11 are not as extreme as the above example, I'm just providing you with another one, seeing this one- which is fantastcially straightforward- doesn't seem to be working.

As others have said: if Integra has deemed 11 channel operation as non-essential, fine. That doesn't mean folks looking at a $3,000 unit like this one have to be ecstatic or "unsurprised" by the omission at this price point in 2012.

James

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post #1549 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Yes, I would guarantee you that you're the ONLY one on this thread who doesn't understand.

No one (at least on this thread that I've read) has BOUGHT ANYTHING, EXPECTING ANYTHING. The point- and only point- is that the top-level Integra pre pro doesn't offer 11 channel output. It appears nothing will acquaint you with that simple reality though. And I'm not whining- I asked a simple question because I was considering the unit- you're the one dragging this out by turning this into an absolutey foolish, absurd ordeal by either willfully or ignorantly misrepresenting what I've said.

It'd be like chevy putting a v-6 in the corvette and then saying people's criticisms that it's not a v- 8 are not valid because it's a car with a V-6. Well, no $hit. But of course it's not about the ENGINE, per se, but the top of the line CAR and what they expect at this price-point in 2012. Guess that means their crticisms wouldn't be valid.

And sure leaving off channels 10 and 11 are not as extreme as the above example, I'm just providing you with another one, seeing this one- which is fantastcially straightforward- doesn't seem to be working.

As others have said: if Integra has deemed 11 channel operation as non-essential, fine. That doesn't mean folks looking at a $3,000 unit like this one have to be ecstatic or "unsurprised" by the omission at this price point in 2012.

James

Umm, despite your splendid analogies (), I'm with Kbarnes on this one.

The 80.3 is a feature rich "flag ship" product and, is available for far less than the $3K number you keep quoting (if you know how to shop). 9 channels is more that adequate for most rooms and 11 might be interesting in a really large room but from a practical standpoint, it is overkill.

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post #1550 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Yes, I would guarantee you that you're the ONLY one on this thread who doesn't understand.

No one (at least on this thread that I've read) has BOUGHT ANYTHING, EXPECTING ANYTHING. The point- and only point- is that the top-level Integra pre pro doesn't offer 11 channel output. It appears nothing will acquaint you with that simple reality though. And I'm not whining- I asked a simple question because I was considering the unit- you're the one dragging this out by turning this into an absolutey foolish, absurd ordeal by either willfully or ignorantly misrepresenting what I've said.

That's right. You asked if a 9 channel unit could do 11 channels. I told you it couldn’t, for obvious reasons. No point complaining about it. It can do 9 channels and is promoted as a 9.2 unit.



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As others have said: if Integra has deemed 11 channel operation as non-essential, fine. That doesn't mean folks looking at a $3,000 unit like this one have to be ecstatic or "unsurprised" by the omission at this price point in 2012.

Integra have produced a 9 channel unit. You may be surprised by the fact it only has 9 channels, but I am at a loss as to understand why you are surprised. If you need 11 channels, then you need the Denon 4311. I am sure I have said this in my original reply.
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post #1551 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Umm, despite your splendid analogies (), I'm with Kbarnes on this one.

The 80.3 is a feature rich "flag ship" product and, is available for far less than the $3K number you keep quoting (if you know how to shop). 9 channels is more that adequate for most rooms and 11 might be interesting in a really large room but from a practical standpoint, it is overkill.

Thanks There may well be some who want 11 channels of course - but they ain't gonna do it with an 80.3. I am at a loss to really understand mastermaybe's point. Genuinely, I do not understand his beef - Integra have not attempted in any way to mislead anyone about the capabilities of this unit - it is what it is. And it is 9 channels. Why he is making such a song and dance about it, I have no idea. I answered his original query and explained that a 9 channel unit cannot handle 11 channels and suggested he look at the Denon 4311 which can handle 11 channels with the addition of a 2 channel external amp - a really neat solution.

Would I have liked to see that solution in the 80.3? Maybe, although it is of no interest to me as I don't want 11 channels and have no room for them anyway. If it increased the price of the unit to provide for them, then it would be a waste of money for the overwhelming majority of people.

As I said before, criticising a 9 channel amp for not having 11 channels does seem kinda futile.
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post #1552 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Umm, despite your splendid analogies (), I'm with Kbarnes on this one.

The 80.3 is a feature rich "flag ship" product and, is available for far less than the $3K number you keep quoting (if you know how to shop). 9 channels is more that adequate for most rooms and 11 might be interesting in a really large room but from a practical standpoint, it is overkill.

The analogy is perfectly fitting and accurate so back-handing it (if indeed that's where mr rolleyes applied) is pretty empty. The critique is that of a top-end pre-pro...not of a 9.2 channel prepro.

And yeah...11 channels is overkill. So was 7, and then, 9.

And ok, a $2,000+ pre/pro. Better?

Of course it's a feature-rich "flag-ship"...precisely why a 11 channel inclusion would fit right in. And prolly will in a matter of months when the next one is introduced (and dollars to donuts will be the exact reason for some upgrading to it).


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post #1553 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks There may well be some who want 11 channels of course - but they ain't gonna do it with an 80.3. I am at a loss to really understand mastermaybe's point. Genuinely, I do not understand his beef - Integra have not attempted in any way to mislead anyone about the capabilities of this unit - it is what it is. And it is 9 channels. Why he is making such a song and dance about it, I have no idea. I answered his original query and explained that a 9 channel unit cannot handle 11 channels and suggested he look at the Denon 4311 which can handle 11 channels with the addition of a 2 channel external amp - a really neat solution.

Would I have liked to see that solution in the 80.3? Maybe, although it is of no interest to me as I don't want 11 channels and have no room for them anyway. If it increased the price of the unit to provide for them, then it would be a waste of money for the overwhelming majority of people.

As I said before, criticising a 9 channel amp for not having 11 channels does seem kinda futile.



I suppose because I had nothing better to do, I had 3 co-workers waste 7 minutes of their lives and take a look at my "point" and the trio "got it" immediately, perfectly.

So, we can agree on one item, I guess: you don't get it. So I'll agree to move on with you under the completely incorrect assumption that I expect a 9 channel prepro to output 11, rather than the appropriate one (assumption) which seems hopelessly lost on you at this point. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

And as an aside, using "it is what it is" is tragically dreadful, congrats, I once read a dead-on summation of it:

A trite, overused and infuriatingly meaningless cliche that is utilized by provincials who think they are adding some deep, meaningful insight during a discussion when all they are offering is senseless, unwarranted repetitiveness to what would otherwise be a far better conversation had they not shown the shallowness of the gene pool they spawned from by using this asininely useless and redundant phrase to begin with.

Have a good one.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #1554 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 12:50 PM
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If you turn OFF Dynamic EQ, does the Audyssey/DSP still remain active? I turned OFF Dynamic EQ and still saw the Audyssey displayed on my from panel....the reason I ask is that someone alluded to the contrary.


Paul
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post #1555 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

If you turn OFF Dynamic EQ, does the Audyssey/DSP still remain active? I turned OFF Dynamic EQ and still saw the Audyssey displayed on my from panel....the reason I ask is that someone alluded to the contrary.


Paul

Turning off the Dynamic EQ feature does not automatically turn off Audyssey EQ processing.

HToM

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post #1556 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


I suppose because I had nothing better to do, I had 3 co-workers waste 7 minutes of their life take a look at my "point" and the trio "got it" immediately, perfectly.

So, we can agree on one item, I guess: you don't get it. So I'll agree to move on with you under the completely incorrect assumption that I expect a 9 channel prepro to output 11, rather than the appropriate one (assumption) which seems hopelessly lost on you at this point. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

And as an aside, using "it is what it is" is tragically dreadful, congrats, I once read a dead-on summation of it:

A trite, overused and infuriatingly meaningless cliche that is utilized by provincials who think they are adding some deep, meaningful insight during a discussion when all they are offering is senseless, unwarranted repetitiveness to what would otherwise be a far better conversation had they not shown the shallowness of the gene pool they spawned from by using this asininely useless and redundant phrase to begin with.

Have a good one.

James

I think you need to get out more
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post #1557 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

So what should the display panel on the 80.3 read, to make sure that the Integra is in the DSD sound mode and not DSD Direct or other modes. Assuming you are sending DSD from your player to the 80.3 and making use of Audyssey/DSP. Should it just display DSD?


Paul

Yes, the Integra should display DSD.
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post #1558 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Turning off the Dynamic EQ feature does not automatically turn off Audyssey EQ processing.

Thanks
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post #1559 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 01:47 PM
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Yes, the Integra should display DSD.

Thanks
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post #1560 of 4277 Old 03-12-2012, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I suppose because I had nothing better to do, I had 3 co-workers waste 7 minutes of their lives and take a look at my "point" and the trio "got it" immediately, perfectly.

So, we can agree on one item, I guess: you don't get it. So I'll agree to move on with you under the completely incorrect assumption that I expect a 9 channel prepro to output 11, rather than the appropriate one (assumption) which seems hopelessly lost on you at this point. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

And as an aside, using "it is what it is" is tragically dreadful, congrats, I once read a dead-on summation of it:

A trite, overused and infuriatingly meaningless cliche that is utilized by provincials who think they are adding some deep, meaningful insight during a discussion when all they are offering is senseless, unwarranted repetitiveness to what would otherwise be a far better conversation had they not shown the shallowness of the gene pool they spawned from by using this asininely useless and redundant phrase to begin with.

Have a good one.

James

Group-think doesn't matter. I fail to see why you want to go on arguing the point. The point was made, no one really cares that deeply on it besides you. I'm sure Integra will give you an 11.2 preamp in the future, until then enjoy your Denon 4311 that you will be buying.
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