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Old 03-27-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

As of now, I have the analogs going to the 5.1 input of the 3805. I can adjust levels of all channels inc sub.

I guess it sounds fine to me. I really need to hear the Audyssey in person to see if I'm blown away by it or if I can do without it.

But do you currently have room treatments? The room is by far the most important 'component' in any system - way more important than the small differences between DACs and amps and so on. People fuss over tiny little differences and ignore the 30dB swings that room modes can cause. All rooms are fairly bad unless they are either treated or electronically EQd or both. Until the latter has been done, nobody can know what their speakers or their system really sounds like. There will be untamed reflections causing all manner of problems with clarity and imaging and peaks and nulls that are causing bass to be hugely boosted or to disappear altogether.

So unless you are prepared to invest in traps and treatments the only way to improve the room is electronic EQ - of which Audyssey XT32 is one of the absolute finest. To bypass it for the sake of allegedly superior DACs in one piece of equipment, when compared to another, doesn't make any sense IMO.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:11 PM
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I think the only thing holding several of us back is the concern that the analog output section of the 80.3 won't perform on par with our other equipment. It's an interesting thing. Everyone is using the same basic chipsets with a few different A/D and D/A chips available. It seems that the primary differences in SQ will be produced by the analog section that immediately follows that D/A. Some are discreet, Marantz uses HDAMs , I don't know on the 80.3. My old Aragaon Soundstage has discreet Class A line stage outputs. So far I've found nothing to match it short of rather expensive 2CH preamps. I'd like nothing better than to remove it and replace it with an 80.3. But I wonder if I'll wind up having to build a 6 channel XLR switcher to put between my processor(s) and the power amps to keep the best of everything.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

But do you currently have room treatments? The room is by far the most important 'component' in any system - way more important than the small differences between DACs and amps and so on. People fuss over tiny little differences and ignore the 30dB swings that room modes can cause. All rooms are fairly bad unless they are either treated or electronically EQd or both. Until the latter has been done, nobody can know what their speakers or their system really sounds like. There will be untamed reflections causing all manner of problems with clarity and imaging and peaks and nulls that are causing bass to be hugely boosted or to disappear altogether.

So unless you are prepared to invest in traps and treatments the only way to improve the room is electronic EQ - of which Audyssey XT32 is one of the absolute finest. To bypass it for the sake of allegedly superior DACs in one piece of equipment, when compared to another, doesn't make any sense IMO.

You are right. I don't have any room treatments as this set up is in my livingroom and not a dedicated theater room. And I do 80% movies and 20% music. I'm gonna go to my local shop and listen to the Integra's Audyssey.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I really must get my Readahead Mode fixed I just gave Terry the exact same answer as you did!

Ha! I just noticed that....I guess two replies are always better than one.

Paul
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

I think the only thing holding several of us back is the concern that the analog output section of the 80.3 won't perform on par with our other equipment. It's an interesting thing. Everyone is using the same basic chipsets with a few different A/D and D/A chips available. It seems that the primary differences in SQ will be produced by the analog section that immediately follows that D/A. Some are discreet, Marantz uses HDAMs , I don't know on the 80.3. My old Aragaon Soundstage has discreet Class A line stage outputs. So far I've found nothing to match it short of rather expensive 2CH preamps. I'd like nothing better than to remove it and replace it with an 80.3. But I wonder if I'll wind up having to build a 6 channel XLR switcher to put between my processor(s) and the power amps to keep the best of everything.

Or you could go with something like the P7 from Parasound. Just sayin.

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Old 03-27-2012, 02:37 PM
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Bardia, I suspect you'll be impressed. The explanation of the benefits of room correction DSP provided by Keith and several others is powerful. With no room treatments and 80% movies I'm not sure how you could go wrong. We listen to a lot of high res digital and we're even spinning vinyl again. A good preamp is special in that critical mid and upper midrange. One thing that concerns me about the 80.3 is a statement like "it didn't sound good at all until XT32 was engaged." I have good sound now without room correction. Makes me wonder if the XT32 is also having to "compensate" for something in the analog stage. I can't imagine that but I'm just a stickler for really good audio.
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Old 03-27-2012, 02:50 PM
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Thanks for the input Kris. I have a Zektor 4 input 6 channel switcher. I've A/B tested it and I can't hear it in the circuit. At one time I had a separate DVD Audio and SACD player. Now I primarily use the BDP-83NE for multi channel but I still retain the ability to switch to the others without changing cables. I could run the 80.3 output through the SS but that results in at least one extra gain stage. If I used the P7, as great a piece as it is, I'd wind up with at least one extra stage when using the processor. An XLR switch with the output connected to the monoblocks would be completely passive with high quality relays and very short signal paths. Of course if the 80.3 betters the Soundstage all of that would be unnecessary. The endless pursuit of better does make this hobby interesting, if expensive.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

I like to know this as well.

He did say quite plainly that in stereo, he prefers the Oppo 95 with analog out to the 80.3 via analog in, but with Audyssey and, I guess, bass management on. That means he is converting the analog stereo 80.3 input to PCM digital, then reconverting to analog via the 80.3 DACS, with room EQ and, presumably, the bass managed sub applied. He says he has compared it straight HDMI.

He may prefer it on whatever basis he chooses, based on his own assessment of the sound. I have not heard it myself, but I have considerable doubt that it would be my preference. And, I have no interest in springing for a 95. The 93 via HDMI sounds pretty darned good to me.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

CElee,

Please clarify your assessment of the Oppo 95 vs the 80.3 in 2CH stereo. Do you mean the 95 playing 2CH stereo via analog outputs and no digital processing in the 80.3 is hands down better than 2CH stereo delivered to the 80.3 via HDMI and with the use of XT32?

Happy trails

Guys without any type of measurement, I prefer the 2ch output of my Oppo (via analog in direct mode) over bitstream hdmi with and without xt32. My wife who I asked to take a listen also chose the Oppo without knowing what was what.

In 2ch mode in a certain seating position, the Oppo's imaging was damn accurate. I was able to tell you exactly where voices and instruments were on the soundstage. With XT32 it was a general area and a little harsh, without XT32 it was a complete disaster. Now once I got out of the main listening position things began to sound different, but that wasn't my concern at the time to see how bad the Oppo did get compared to XT32.

Over the weekend I did do a quick listen in multi ch xt32 vs the Oppo 95 in multi ch analog with Adele's royal albert hall and eagles hell freeze's pver. No contest here, the Oppo sound stage completely collapses with all 5 speakers and sub. Where the xt32 really makes everything come together coherently. It's a little unfair to the Oppo as I have not set the level calibration etc to the surrounds and subs yet, but I don't see how or if I did how much better it would be.

I have not tested multich sacd or DVD-a yet, as I can't seem to find them in all my packing. And really in no hurry to either, I'm enjoying XT32 with movies as it's such a delight over my Marantz.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Another alternative is to run everything through a good VP of course and let that handle all the switching. Or you can connect direct to the PJ and let a programmable remote handle the switching. There are various options - I'd want to be able to use my 4K source and 4K PJ if I had one for sure. Have you tried outputting from the source at native res and letting the 80.3 do the 4K upconversion? Regardless of how well it does it, or not, does it actually do it?

You seem familiar with the 80.3 and its settings, but for the avoidance of doubt, you have Input Output assign set to Source and then the Picture Adjust set to Direct? If there's a 'Through' anywhere in there it may cause problems just passing through the signal untouched.

I've avoid adding video processors to my system(s) for years. Apart from that, popular VPs like lumagen's for example don't even yet have 4K handling capabilities themselves. Also, the idea adding yet another component to the A/V rack doesn't get me excited, nor does the prospective cost involved in doing so.
Yes I have tried the 4K scaler and it does work, but it is indeed one of those pointless exercises with a projector with internal scaling like the VW1000. Why would you go around the fact you've invested in a true 4K source, such as a Radeon 7950 only to see a worse version of the built-in projectors built-in 1080p upconversion? I don't see any logic in that and that's already happening at a much better quality in the projector itself. Watching for example the end part of The Dark Knight out of my Oppo BDP-93, in the projectors 2.35:1 mode was pure eye candy.
I have tried all permutations of input modes. Direct overrides all the source picture adjustments and that's how I have it set currently but have test through mode as well to be thorough. I also went back into the output mode menu yesterday and checked modes trying both source and through. Neither allowed the 4K to work.

At this stage my contact at the distributors is getting the head of their tech support to go and investigate with the factory, to see if there's a solution or as I surmised a possible one via future firmware release. Otherwise, I may be waiting for an 80.4 and forgetting about being able to test 4K content with the HTPC -fortunately its not like there's anything more than test clips out there to view right now. If somehow any of the manufacturers release a 4K format and player I guess I'll be hope for dual HDMI's and probably using an old school external switcher or even clunkily doing it by hand. But that's still a future prob...

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Old 03-27-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

Guys without any type of measurement, I prefer the 2ch output of my Oppo (via analog in direct mode) over bitstream hdmi with and without xt32. My wife who I asked to take a listen also chose the Oppo without knowing what was what.

In 2ch mode in a certain seating position, the Oppo's imaging was damn accurate. I was able to tell you exactly where voices and instruments were on the soundstage. With XT32 it was a general area and a little harsh, without XT32 it was a complete disaster. Now once I got out of the main listening position things began to sound different, but that wasn't my concern at the time to see how bad the Oppo did get compared to XT32.

Over the weekend I did do a quick listen in multi ch xt32 vs the Oppo 95 in multi ch analog with Adele's royal albert hall and eagles hell freeze's pver. No contest here, the Oppo sound stage completely collapses with all 5 speakers and sub. Where the xt32 really makes everything come together coherently. It's a little unfair to the Oppo as I have not set the level calibration etc to the surrounds and subs yet, but I don't see how or if I did how much better it would be.

I have not tested multich sacd or DVD-a yet, as I can't seem to find them in all my packing. And really in no hurry to either, I'm enjoying XT32 with movies as it's such a delight over my Marantz.

Now I am confused. I thought you said you liked it best via the analog ouputs from the 95 but using Audyssey. It's an educated guess, but my take on the little bit of harshness or vagueness of the image is that it is not due to XT/32 at all. Rather, it is likely the a-d conversion by the Integra.

I myself have yet to hear a meaningful difference in stereo via HDMI vs. tried and tested digital coax. So, I do not, myself, think HDMI is the culprit. I hate to bring it up, because it is controversial. But, I have found some HDMI cables to sound better than others. I am not talking about expensive ones. Several of us have listened to HDMI cables costing hundreds/meter without hearing a difference over my $40 PPC Locking Cables, but we have heard some, not all, inexpensive cables that did not sound very good to me and my listening panel.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

I think the only thing holding several of us back is the concern that the analog output section of the 80.3 won't perform on par with our other equipment. It's an interesting thing. Everyone is using the same basic chipsets with a few different A/D and D/A chips available. It seems that the primary differences in SQ will be produced by the analog section that immediately follows that D/A. Some are discreet, Marantz uses HDAMs , I don't know on the 80.3. My old Aragaon Soundstage has discreet Class A line stage outputs. So far I've found nothing to match it short of rather expensive 2CH preamps. I'd like nothing better than to remove it and replace it with an 80.3. But I wonder if I'll wind up having to build a 6 channel XLR switcher to put between my processor(s) and the power amps to keep the best of everything.

But the reality is, in an uncorrected room, it doesn't really matter. The room makes far more difference to the SQ than all that lot.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

You are right. I don't have any room treatments as this set up is in my livingroom and not a dedicated theater room. And I do 80% movies and 20% music. I'm gonna go to my local shop and listen to the Integra's Audyssey.

Make sure you listen to a unit with XT32. If it has been set up properly, ask them to switch it in and out for you. If they have a very well treated room, the difference will be subtle. If their room is untreated the difference will be substantial. Until you get the room right, or use electronic EQ like XT32, all those other things pale into insignificance wrt to SQ.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

Bardia, I suspect you'll be impressed. The explanation of the benefits of room correction DSP provided by Keith and several others is powerful. With no room treatments and 80% movies I'm not sure how you could go wrong. We listen to a lot of high res digital and we're even spinning vinyl again. A good preamp is special in that critical mid and upper midrange. One thing that concerns me about the 80.3 is a statement like "it didn't sound good at all until XT32 was engaged."

Not the 80.3 - the system (ie the room and the equipment together). The *system* didn't sound good until XT32 was engaged. That's what I'd expect in an untreated room. No matter how good the source, the preamp, the amp and the speakers, in an untreated or un-EQd room it will not sound anywhere near to its potential. In fact, I’d say that putting high quality gear into a 'raw' room is a waste of money, mostly.

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Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

I have good sound now without room correction.

So how does your system correct for all those reflections that are smearing the imaging and obscuring the detail? How does it correct for those nulls and peaks that are muddying your bass? All rooms have these problems and these problems are the enemy of good sound. Until you fix them, with traps and treatments or electronic EQ (or ideally both) you can't have sound anywhere near up to the potential of your equipment.

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Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

Makes me wonder if the XT32 is also having to "compensate" for something in the analog stage. I can't imagine that but I'm just a stickler for really good audio.

No, it isn't, and can't be, doing that. It's sorting out the room and that's what makes the difference between mediocre sound and good sound.
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Old 03-27-2012, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Now i am confused. I thought you said you liked it best via the analog ouputs from the 93 but using Audyssey. It's an educated guess, but my take on the little bit of harshness or vagueness of the image is that it is not due to XT/32 at all. Rather, it is likely the a-d conversion by the Integra.

I myself have yet to hear a meaningful difference in stereo via HDMI vs. tried and tested digital coax. So, I do not, myself, think HDMI is the culprit. I hate to bring it up, because it is controversial. But, I have found some HDMI cables to sound better than others. I am not talking about expensive ones. Several of us have listened to HDMI cables costing hundreds/meter without hearing a difference over my $40 PPC Locking Cables, but we have heard some, not all, inexpensive cables that did not sound very good to me and my listening panel.

i do not have a 93, i have a 95. If i allow the Integra to do the decoding, my Oppo feeds it through bitstream.
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Old 03-27-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boozehound21 View Post

Thanks for the input Kris. I have a Zektor 4 input 6 channel switcher. I've A/B tested it and I can't hear it in the circuit. At one time I had a separate DVD Audio and SACD player. Now I primarily use the BDP-83NE for multi channel but I still retain the ability to switch to the others without changing cables. I could run the 80.3 output through the SS but that results in at least one extra gain stage. If I used the P7, as great a piece as it is, I'd wind up with at least one extra stage when using the processor. An XLR switch with the output connected to the monoblocks would be completely passive with high quality relays and very short signal paths. Of course if the 80.3 betters the Soundstage all of that would be unnecessary. The endless pursuit of better does make this hobby interesting, if expensive.

You could connect the 83 analog outs directly to the P7 as a pure analog preamp and then feed the outputs of your SSP to the other input of the P7 and use the bypass. So no extra gain stage, just a solid multi-channel pure analog pure for your Oppo and a transparent bypass for your other gear.

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Old 03-27-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CElee View Post

Guys without any type of measurement, I prefer the 2ch output of my Oppo (via analog in direct mode) over bitstream hdmi with and without xt32. My wife who I asked to take a listen also chose the Oppo without knowing what was what.

In 2ch mode in a certain seating position, the Oppo's imaging was damn accurate. I was able to tell you exactly where voices and instruments were on the soundstage. With XT32 it was a general area and a little harsh, without XT32 it was a complete disaster. Now once I got out of the main listening position things began to sound different, but that wasn't my concern at the time to see how bad the Oppo did get compared to XT32.

Over the weekend I did do a quick listen in multi ch xt32 vs the Oppo 95 in multi ch analog with Adele's royal albert hall and eagles hell freeze's pver. No contest here, the Oppo sound stage completely collapses with all 5 speakers and sub. Where the xt32 really makes everything come together coherently. It's a little unfair to the Oppo as I have not set the level calibration etc to the surrounds and subs yet, but I don't see how or if I did how much better it would be.

I have not tested multich sacd or DVD-a yet, as I can't seem to find them in all my packing. And really in no hurry to either, I'm enjoying XT32 with movies as it's such a delight over my Marantz.

I wonder if the Oppo's sound via analog would still "collapse" if hooked up to say a Parasound P7 without any alteration...
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You had it right before.
  1. Go to Main Menu > Input Output Assign > Resolution.
  2. Select Source
  3. Then go to Menu Source Setup > Picture Adjust > Picture Mode
  4. Select Direct
  5. You're done.
In my 5509 manual, which seems to follow the 80.3 pagination, these are on pages 49 and 61, but ignore that and just follow the steps above.

You can repeat for each source (select the source first in the 80.3 and then go to the menus to make the adjustment).

Page 91 has this info:
To by-pass the upconversion, set the Picture Mode setting to Direct ( page 61).

As I said before, if you select Source in Input Output assign, this then allows you to select picture settings based on each source, which you do by going to Picture Adjust and choosing the one you want as outline in the 1,2,3 above. If you select Direct there, then all video processing is bypassed, including upconversion.

Let me know if this works for you when you are sat at the 80.3 with these notes to hand. If not, come back, of course

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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post

Terry, the problem lies with the same terminology like "Through" being used in both pg 49 and pg 61 of the 80.3 manual.

To have your Runco do all the work (signal untouched by the 80.3) go to Main Menu ----> under [input/output assign] there are two choices Monitor OUT and Resolution. Under Resolution choose "Source" if you want to send the signal untouched to the Runco, say for a BD or SAt/Cable box.

Now, back out of that menu and go to item number 4 on the main menu called [Source Setup]. Hit enter and go to a sub menu called [picture adjust]. On this menu you can now choose Direct, Through, Custom 1080p etc. You want to choose Direct.

You are done!!

Now, let say you have an input that cold benefit from the 80.3's video processing capabilities. All you have to do is go to the [Source Setup] menu and choose say custom, and you have a plethora of choices you can make to that setting.

Remember to switch to the input you want first, (BD, SAT, etc) so that the choices you make apply to that signal.

Hope this helps

Paul

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I really must get my Readahead Mode fixed I just gave Terry the exact same answer as you did!

Thanks guys and I did change the 80.3 to "Direct" as well as I also went into the Menus on the Integra 50.3 Blu-Ray and set it to "Direct".

Now the Runco VX11d is doing all the Upconversion to 1080p from those components.

My opinion is the Runco should certainly be the better choice for Video processing than the Integra components.

I have watched a variety of programming after changing to "Direct" and all seems to be just fine.

Terry
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Thanks guys and I did change the 80.3 to "Direct" as well as I also went into the Menus on the Integra 50.3 Blu-Ray and set it to "Direct".

Now the Runco VX11d is doing all the Upconversion to 1080p from those components.

There isn't any upconversion from Bluray. You're sending 1080p to a native 1080p display.

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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

My opinion is the Runco should certainly be the better choice for Video processing than the Integra components.

Again, what video processing? If the Bluray player is set to direct and the display can take the output natively, then there is no requirement for any VP.

VP and upconversion is only needed for SD sources.


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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

I have watched a variety of programming after changing to "Direct" and all seems to be just fine.

Do you see any difference in PQ?
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:36 AM
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Has anyone been having problems connecting to the NET features since the firmware update? Seems like every 2 days I have to unplug the receiver in order to connect/use any of the NET features. I checked the connection on the back of the receiver that is fine. Had no problems prior to the firmware update.
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

I wonder if the Oppo's sound via analog would still "collapse" if hooked up to say a Parasound P7 without any alteration...

I would assume so since it's without any alterations. Remember I also stated that I didn't calibrate the 95 when I tried it in multich analog. I will try it tonight just for kicks.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Azvipers View Post

Has anyone been having problems connecting to the NET features since the firmware update? Seems like every 2 days I have to unplug the receiver in order to connect/use any of the NET features. I checked the connection on the back of the receiver that is fine. Had no problems prior to the firmware update.

No problems here. Have you assigned an IP address manually or are you using DCHP?

If you go onto Network Settings when it refuses to connect, does everything there look OK?
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No problems here. Have you assigned an IP address manually or are you using DCHP?

If you go onto Network Settings when it refuses to connect, does everything there look OK?

I am using DCHP, I think, I havent assigned an IP. When it does not connect everything looks correct on the network settings.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by CElee View Post

i do not have a 93, i have a 95. If i allow the Integra to do the decoding, my Oppo feeds it through bitstream.

My bad. Yes, I realize I had misstated it and edited my original post, changing 93 to 95.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There isn't any up-conversion from Blu-ray. You’re sending 1080p to a native 1080p display.



Again, what video processing? If the Blu-ray player is set to direct and the display can take the output natively, then there is no requirement for any VP.

VP and up-conversion is only needed for SD sources.




Do you see any difference in PQ?

Keith, ... I have to reply to you in this manner.

You know I watched several things last evening trying to decide if I actually saw a {Difference}, make that a {Noticeable-Difference} that was just "Obvious" without trying.

Believe it or not I am really just not sure.
That may come across as a strange comment but it is Factual.

Let me go over a few things here with you and others.
1st I did not see the two Post that went over exactly how to change the Integra 80.3 to "Direct" until after I got back on the Computer very late last night.
Because I was Un-Sure exactly how to get the 80.3 and in my case the Integra 50.3 both to "Direct" pass through for Video to the Runco VX-11d I called Technical Support with Integra.
Actually I called Integra twice, once for each Component.

This is what You and some others here might find interesting.
The fellow I spoke with the 1st time said to set it to {Through} and that would do what I wanted.
At that point I ask him he minded me sharing some info. with him that I had gotten from a very smart person from AVS.
He said not at all so I proceeded to read to him the Post you did earlier Keith about the Terminology, "Through versus Direct".
So I said does what this fellow says make sense now that I have brought this to your attention.
If so, how and what are the steps to change my 80.3 to "Direct" based on what I just read you.
He then said do this 1st and than go here and do this etc.
(Sure enough once down to the Picture Highlighted and changed it read, "Direct".

At that point I ask him does this make sense to you now that we have gotten to this point.
He agreed that this was the "Correct" setting for complete pass through of Video to the Runco with No-Video being adjusted by the 80.3.

I then thought I wonder if the Integra 50.3 Blu-Ray is the same exact way as the 80.3 Pre-Amp Processor.
Because I thought I had read where the 50.3 would "Process" the Video from like a DVD to 1080p.
As I suspected that was the case and as I said I called Integra back and we went through the Menus to set it to "Direct".

So that is how I got both the Integra components set to "Direct".

I then called Runco for Tech Assistance.
I ask the tech this question, (Does the Runco VX-11d Up-Convert everything coming to it to 1080p) ?
His reply was, YES !!!
I chose not to drop this discussion just yet between the two of us.
I followed up with this, (So, there is nothing to set in the Menus to insure the Runco will do this Up-Conversion, Right) ?
(His reply, Nothing the Runco will do it Automatically).
I said to him I have one last question regarding this Up-Conversion do you mind ?
(His response, Not-at-All)
I said OK let me say this one more time and say it like this,
(So the Runco does Up-Conversion Automatically and when my Runco Authorized Dealer did the set-up there was "Nothing" he could have set in the Menus that needs to be Changed to insure that this Up-Conversion to 1080p will take place), Do you follow me completely on what I am asking?
(His response, your tech could not set anything that would "Stop" the Runco from Automatically doing the 1080p Up-Conversion, it is Automatic not a setting).
I then said to him I thank-you for your Time & Patience as I am simply trying to make sure that the Runco does the Up-Conversion to 1080p as I have changed all the Integra Components to "Direct" so they will NOT Process the Video.


Back to your question now .........
(Did or Do I see a "Difference) ?

I'm not sure that I saw an immediate difference.
And maybe the reason is I have not watched the same DVD with the settings "Changed" back and forth between {Through} & {Direct}.
I have Dish and on Dish I have the Blockbuster "Streaming" of movies.
I did go in and use the "Search" and located an older Sci-Fi movie called, The Angry Red Planet.
It was made in 1960 believe it or not.
I was only 15 years old when that movie was made.
Point being this, it was in HD and keep in mind that now the Video is not being processed by the 80.3.
The Movie/Picture was just Amazing to watch.
Very-Very-Clear images for sure.
I even called my wife to come to The HT and check out the Picture "Quality" of a movie made back in 1960 and was in HD.

Does this really answer the question as to which is "Superior" in video processing between the 80.3 & the Runco ?
(I guess not)

So this is my last thinking on this Video 1080p up-conversion.
I am not Positive on the Runco as I don't have enough knowledge to know if what the Runco Tech was saying is completely Factual or not.
Hopefully what he said after me "Beating" the subject to Death was accurate.

I am going to make one more call and that call I am going to make today.
That call is going to my Dealer for Runco that did all the changes in the HT.
I'm going to ask him about this Automatic 1080p up-conversion and there being {Nothing} that would need to be {Set/Changed} in the Runco "Menus" to insure it does just that.

I think the reason I am so insistent in talking with the different Manufacturers is this.
I "Expected" to see a noticeable/immediate difference in the picture once everything was set to "Direct" with the Integra components and the Runco was then doing, (All the Video Processing).

Perhaps my expectations are or were to "High".

Edit,
Maybe what I am "Not" taking into account is this on the Video Processing.
Even though I "Changed" Both the Integra components to "Direct" what I am or did not take into {Consideration} is this,
the Runco was "Always" still doing the Automatic up-conversion and Video Processing coming from the Integra components.
So, that being the case I should probably "Not" see a {Noticeable-Difference} now that I have further thought about this.

Terry
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

You know I watched several things last evening trying to decide if I actually saw a {Difference}, make that a {Noticeable-Difference} that was just "Obvious" without trying.

That's what I was wondering. You mentioned your BD player and with a 1080p source going to a native 1080p display, it won't matter if you set it to Direct or Through because there is no upconversion or other VP required. It's just whatever is on the disc going to the PJ with nothing added or taken away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Believe it or not I am really just not sure.
That may come across as a strange comment but it is Factual.

It's not strange, Terry - in fact I'd be worried if you had seem some obvious difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post


This is what You and some others here might find interesting.
The fellow I spoke with the 1st time said to set it to {Through} and that would do what I wanted.

Naughty boy. He ought to know the difference between Through (no manipulation of image but upconversion maintained) and Direct (no manipulation of image, NO upconversion either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

At that point I ask him he minded me sharing some info. with him that I had gotten from a very smart person from AVS.

Ah - so someone else is advising you besides me, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

He said not at all so I proceeded to read to him the Post you did earlier Keith about the Terminology, "Through versus Direct".
So I said does what this fellow says make sense now that I have brought this to your attention.
If so, how and what are the steps to change my 80.3 to "Direct" based on what I just read you.
He then said do this 1st and than go here and do this etc.
(Sure enough once down to the Picture Highlighted and changed it read, "Direct".

At least he got there with your prompting. The scary thing is, without your prompting, you could have set it in a way you didn't want it set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

At that point I ask him does this make sense to you now that we have gotten to this point.
He agreed that this was the "Correct" setting for complete pass through of Video to the Runco with No-Video being adjusted by the 80.3.

Bingo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

I then thought I wonder if the Integra 50.3 Blu-Ray is the same exact way as the 80.3 Pre-Amp Processor.
Because I thought I had read where the 50.3 would "Process" the Video from like a DVD to 1080p.
As I suspected that was the case and as I said I called Integra back and we went through the Menus to set it to "Direct".

So that is how I got both the Integra components set to "Direct".

Yep. Nothing touched in the player, nothing touched in the AVP. So, on to the only other component in this puzzle... the PJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

I then called Runco for Tech Assistance.

I said OK let me say this one more time and say it like this,
(So the Runco does Up-Conversion Automatically and when my Runco Authorized Dealer did the set-up there was "Nothing" he could have set in the Menus that needs to be Changed to insure that this Up-Conversion to 1080p will take place), Do you follow me completely on what I am asking?
(His response, your tech could not set anything that would "Stop" the Runco from Automatically doing the 1080p Up-Conversion, it is Automatic not a setting).

That's right. If you send a non-native (in your case anything less than 1080p) image to your display, it has to be upconverted somewhere, or it would play as a little picture in the middle of a big screen (windowboxing).

If nothing else has upconverted it, then the PJ, the last in the chain, will do it. If you had done it in, say, the player or the AVP, then the PJ would go "ah, this image is already 1080p, I need to do nothing to it' and pass it through.

To elaborate": if you play a SD DVD in your player, the native image is 480i. If the player is set to 'Direct' then it will send out a 480i image. That gets to the 80.3. If the 80.3 is set to Direct, it will send out a 480i image. When it gets to the PJ, it will be upconverted to 1080p. OTOH, if you had told the player to upconvert the 480i image to 1080p (assuming it can) then it would send out a 1080p image. This would pass through the 80.3 and onto the PJ as before. Or, you could send the 480i image out of the player and have the 80.3 upconvert it (by setting the source in Picture Adjust to 1080p) and then it would be passed to the PJ as before. IOW, you can upconvert anywhere in the chain - the idea is to discover which link in the chain does the BEST upconversion (depending on the capability of its processor chip) and do the upconversion there. In your case, if you know that the Runco upconverts better than your player or your AVP, then that is where you want the upconversion done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post


Back to your question now .........
(Did or Do I see a "Difference) ?

I'm not sure that I saw an immediate difference.
And maybe the reason is I have not watched the same DVD with the settings "Changed" back and forth between {Through} & {Direct}.
I have Dish and on Dish I have the Blockbuster "Streaming" of movies.
I did go in and use the "Search" and located an older Sci-Fi movie called, The Angry Red Planet.
It was made in 1960 believe it or not.
I was only 15 years old when that movie was made.
Point being this, it was in HD and keep in mind that now the Video is not being processed by the 80.3.
The Movie/Picture was just Amazing to watch.
Very-Very-Clear images for sure.
I even called my wife to come to The HT and check out the Picture "Quality" of a movie made back in 1960 and was in HD.

Good. Then it is working as intended for your SD sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Does this really answer the question as to which is "Superior" in video processing between the 80.3 & the Runco ?
(I guess not)

No - the only way to do that is to either take it on trust (it's a reasonable assumption with your Runco) or test it as described above. Best to use a test disc for that, such as the Digital Video Essentials one or the Spears & Munsil one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

So this is my last thinking on this Video 1080p up-conversion.
I am not Positive on the Runco as I don't have enough knowledge to know if what the Runco Tech was saying is completely Factual or not.
Hopefully what he said after me "Beating" the subject to Death was accurate.

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

I think the reason I am so insistent in talking with the different Manufacturers is this.
I "Expected" to see a noticeable/immediate difference in the picture once everything was set to "Direct" with the Integra components and the Runco was then doing, (All the Video Processing).

I wouldn't expect a huge difference, especially without a test disc. The 80.3 is no slouch at video processing and has been highly commended in that department so it wouldn't make a huge difference if the upconversion was done in the 80.3 IMO. But you are seeking perfection, which I fully understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Edit,
Maybe what I am "Not" taking into account is this on the Video Processing.
Even though I "Changed" Both the Integra components to "Direct" what I am or did not take into {Consideration} is this,
the Runco was "Always" still doing the Automatic up-conversion and Video Processing coming from the Integra components.
So, that being the case I should probably "Not" see a {Noticeable-Difference} now that I have further thought about this.

Terry

It doesn't happen twice as I hope I have explained. If you did the upconversion in the player, that's it. It's upconverted. Maybe badly (in some players) but once it's done it's done. The other components see it (if set correctly) and let it pass. Caveat on that: if you had set the player to upconvert from 480i to 1080p and then the 80.3 to downconvert to, say, 720p, then the PJ would upconvert that back to 1080p - but you wouldn't do it like that because we wouldn't let you LOL!

Phew. A long post. Off to walk my dog now.... have a good day, Terry,
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:28 AM
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Keith, ... Just got a call back from my Runco Dealer "Owner" and he had just gotten off the phone with Runco.

The Runco does Automatically do the up-Conversion as well as the Video Processing.
There is No-Setting to make this take place.
It is Automatic.

So, back to watching movies and having fun in the HT.

Terry
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:07 AM
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Terry/Keith,

I don't mean to interrupt your conversation but I have a couple comments to add. I know Keith has addressed some of this in a later post but while I fully understand what Keith is saying, some of what he says may still be a little difficult to understand if you don't already understand the technology and how it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post

Keith, ... I have to reply to you in this manner.

You know I watched several things last evening trying to decide if I actually saw a {Difference}, make that a {Noticeable-Difference} that was just "Obvious" without trying.

Believe it or not I am really just not sure.
That may come across as a strange comment but it is Factual.

Let me go over a few things here with you and others.
1st I did not see the two Post that went over exactly how to change the Integra 80.3 to "Direct" until after I got back on the Computer very late last night.
Because I was Un-Sure exactly how to get the 80.3 and in my case the Integra 50.3 both to "Direct" pass through for Video to the Runco VX-11d I called Technical Support with Integra.
Actually I called Integra twice, once for each Component.

This is what You and some others here might find interesting.
The fellow I spoke with the 1st time said to set it to {Through} and that would do what I wanted.
At that point I ask him he minded me sharing some info. with him that I had gotten from a very smart person from AVS.
He said not at all so I proceeded to read to him the Post you did earlier Keith about the Terminology, "Through versus Direct".
So I said does what this fellow says make sense now that I have brought this to your attention.
If so, how and what are the steps to change my 80.3 to "Direct" based on what I just read you.
He then said do this 1st and than go here and do this etc.
(Sure enough once down to the Picture Highlighted and changed it read, "Direct".

At that point I ask him does this make sense to you now that we have gotten to this point.
He agreed that this was the "Correct" setting for complete pass through of Video to the Runco with No-Video being adjusted by the 80.3.

I then thought I wonder if the Integra 50.3 Blu-Ray is the same exact way as the 80.3 Pre-Amp Processor.
Because I thought I had read where the 50.3 would "Process" the Video from like a DVD to 1080p.
As I suspected that was the case and as I said I called Integra back and we went through the Menus to set it to "Direct".

So that is how I got both the Integra components set to "Direct".

I then called Runco for Tech Assistance.
I ask the tech this question, (Does the Runco VX-11d Up-Convert everything coming to it to 1080p) ?
His reply was, YES !!!
I chose not to drop this discussion just yet between the two of us.
I followed up with this, (So, there is nothing to set in the Menus to insure the Runco will do this Up-Conversion, Right) ?
(His reply, Nothing the Runco will do it Automatically).
I said to him I have one last question regarding this Up-Conversion do you mind ?
(His response, Not-at-All)
I said OK let me say this one more time and say it like this,
(So the Runco does Up-Conversion Automatically and when my Runco Authorized Dealer did the set-up there was "Nothing" he could have set in the Menus that needs to be Changed to insure that this Up-Conversion to 1080p will take place), Do you follow me completely on what I am asking?
(His response, your tech could not set anything that would "Stop" the Runco from Automatically doing the 1080p Up-Conversion, it is Automatic not a setting).
I then said to him I thank-you for your Time & Patience as I am simply trying to make sure that the Runco does the Up-Conversion to 1080p as I have changed all the Integra Components to "Direct" so they will NOT Process the Video.


Back to your question now .........
(Did or Do I see a "Difference) ?

I'm not sure that I saw an immediate difference.
And maybe the reason is I have not watched the same DVD with the settings "Changed" back and forth between {Through} & {Direct}.
I have Dish and on Dish I have the Blockbuster "Streaming" of movies.
I did go in and use the "Search" and located an older Sci-Fi movie called, The Angry Red Planet.
It was made in 1960 believe it or not.
I was only 15 years old when that movie was made.
Point being this, it was in HD and keep in mind that now the Video is not being processed by the 80.3.
The Movie/Picture was just Amazing to watch.
Very-Very-Clear images for sure.
I even called my wife to come to The HT and check out the Picture "Quality" of a movie made back in 1960 and was in HD.

Does this really answer the question as to which is "Superior" in video processing between the 80.3 & the Runco ?
(I guess not)

So this is my last thinking on this Video 1080p up-conversion.
I am not Positive on the Runco as I don't have enough knowledge to know if what the Runco Tech was saying is completely Factual or not.
Hopefully what he said after me "Beating" the subject to Death was accurate.

I am going to make one more call and that call I am going to make today.
That call is going to my Dealer for Runco that did all the changes in the HT.
I'm going to ask him about this Automatic 1080p up-conversion and there being {Nothing} that would need to be {Set/Changed} in the Runco "Menus" to insure it does just that.

I think the reason I am so insistent in talking with the different Manufacturers is this.
I "Expected" to see a noticeable/immediate difference in the picture once everything was set to "Direct" with the Integra components and the Runco was then doing, (All the Video Processing).

Perhaps my expectations are or were to "High".

Edit,
Maybe what I am "Not" taking into account is this on the Video Processing.
Even though I "Changed" Both the Integra components to "Direct" what I am or did not take into {Consideration} is this,
the Runco was "Always" still doing the Automatic up-conversion and Video Processing coming from the Integra components.
So, that being the case I should probably "Not" see a {Noticeable-Difference} now that I have further thought about this.

Terry

As Keith suggests I'm not really suprised that you haven't noticed a big difference between the VP in your Runco and the one in the 80.3. In all the reviews I've read on the 80.3 the built in HQV Vida VP has been very highly regarded. In fact in his review in Home Theater magazine, Kris Deering said the VP in the 80.3 rivals most external processors. But in the pursuit of perfection the Runco may indeed yield better results.

Regarding when the Runco will and will not do any processing...

Your projector has a native resolution of 1920 x 1080 (i.e. 1080p). In order to utilize the full resolution of the chip any signal received by the projector with a resolution less than 1080p will be upconverted to 1080p using the VP in the projector. As the Runco rep told you there is no setting to turn this on or off; it is always enabled. As Keith said, if this processing somehow could be turned off the result would be a smaller picture in a window box with black bars surrounding the picture.

There may be another setting to be aware of. Some (many?) displays will still process a signal even if the incoming signal is 1080p. Other than for constant picture height, I know of no reason or benefit there could be to further process an incoming 1080p signal. Most displays that do further process incoming 1080p signals have a setting to disable this processing. You may want to ask the Runco rep if the projector does any further processing whend the incoming signal is 1080p and if so how you can defeat this processing.

With your current settings (everything Direct) the only sources that will deliver a 1080p signal to your projector and thus not require additional processing inside the projector will be your Blu Ray player (when playing a Blu Ray disc of course) and your Dish Network receiver when watching a 1080p PPV movie.

Regarding your Dish Network receiver/DVR...

I'm not sure which receiver/DVR you have but it should be noted that you may not be able to disable the built in video processing. I switched back to DirecTV from Dish Network a couple years ago, but when I had Dish the receivers I had (VIP 622, 211, 512?) had a single global output resolution setting and thus did not allow the user to defeat internal video processing.

What this means... Different channels broadcast at different resolutions, all SD channels are 480i, most HD channels are broadcast in 1080i, some HD channels (ABC, FOX, ESPN) are 720p. Since the Dish Network receivers have a global output resolution setting any signal not matching the selected output resolution will get processed. Since you have a 1080p display and most HD channels are 1080i, 1080i is normally the best setting. Since 1080i is "lower" resolution than 1080p, at some point the signal will need to be processed (deinterlaced) to 1080p. With your current settings (everything direct) the Runco will do this processing. Believe it or not, while it should be a simple task, deinterlacing 1080i to 1080p is one type of processing that many VPs have trouble with. Although most newer VPs don't have issues with this, I would assume your Runco is fully up to the task.

The only exception to the global output resolution setting on the Dish Network receivers are the PPV movies that are advertised to be 1080p; those will output 1080p. I'm not sure what resolution the Blockbuster streaming is.

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Old 03-28-2012, 12:35 PM
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Sorry to interrupt the current topic, but I have quick question for other DHC 80.3 owners out there (feel free to PM your replies if you don't want to clutter this thread):

Anyone notice A/V sync (aka, lip sync) issues from some discs?

So far I've only experienced this on two DVD titles: Mr. Poppers Penguins and Dolphin Tale (both Dolby Digital 5.1). Happens when they're played with my OPPO BDP-95 as well as my old Panasonic BD60.

With these titles there's an ever-so-slight audio delay...I'd guess around 30-50ms (audio lags behind video). After much trial and error I narrowed it down to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ. When OFF, there's no delay. When ON, the audio lags video by a slight amount...lip reading seems "off" but it becomes apparent when there's a visual event with an associated sound (car door closes or someone knocking on a door).

I actually like having Audyssey Dyn. Eq. set to "On" so I tried the A/V sync setting but it's already set to "0" and doesn't go negative.

I can live with turning Dyn. EQ OFF for the affected titles, but was curious if anyone else has experienced it.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:35 PM
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For watching blu ray movies, would I benefit if I go via the 80.3 vs going from oppo 95 directly to Elite Kuro??

The pic is so damm good now that I cant' imagine the 80.3 making it any better...
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