When do the 2013 Denon's come out? Any new features we should expect? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Sorry vinyl worshiping is obsolete, as CD technology negated it's value to nill. Lets discuss stereo channel separation offered by your best cartridge, hows that compare to 100dB or better against a CD.

vinyl worshipping? Funny!! I've got stuff that isn't even available on CD and I've looked. Time to rip my vinyl to flac I suppose but it is just that.. time.. time I dont' have. Right now I still pull those old liquorice pizzas out of the sleeve and place them on the turntable each time I want to play it. It is a ritual.. a rite.. worshipping!!

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post #542 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Very true but nevertheless any digital representation is an approximation of the true source. That said, most recordings are now done digitally with very accurate equipement that is probably better at reproduction and playback than vinyl can be after even a few spins on the turntable.

Also analog was also a representation of the voice/input signal its not like tape has a unlimited amount of 'storage'. Like it or not but its not really the voice of that great singer on that tape its a electrical signal imperfectly captured trying to match it just like with digital.

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post #543 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 01:55 PM
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So as far as the 2013 models go? Any more info on the 2313 and 3313? I'm thinking I will be leveraging the m.y. rollover to a deal on one of the 2012's unless there's something spectacular in these. HD radio sounds good as streaming isn't always an option and a USB Phono amp would add about $150 to the 23xx so a 33xx is sounding like a better option.

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post #544 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Also analog was also a representation of the voice/input signal its not like tape has a unlimited amount of 'storage'. Like it or not but its not really the voice of that great singer on that tape its a electrical signal imperfectly captured trying to match it just like with digital.

Daniel.

Vinyl has ridges that match the sound waves, no.

But lets not digress. The point is that loosing inputs while maintaining the price at the same level as the previous year is, in a way, inflation. But there are other things added on that weren't available before, aren't there? Apple things? I don't use iTunes so this doesn't benefit me at all. Internet streaming.. Maybe that will but I do it already with a Denon ASD-3N hooked up analog via RCA and my HTPC hooked up digitally via HDMI.

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post #545 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:01 PM
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Is there any change in the GUI on the new xx13 models? The screen shots I've seen so far don't indicate anything I can see.

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post #546 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Vinyl has ridges that match the sound waves, no.
.

No they don't they try to match the original thinking it was a lossless process is just silly just because its analog and so doesn't have some of the problems related to digital that doesn't mean it ever was a perfect match for the input it has/had its own set of limitations.

Grrr i got into a holywar .. maybe we should both reread the other 1000 threads on this topic .

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post #547 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Vinyl has ridges that match the sound waves, no.

But lets not digress. The point is that loosing inputs while maintaining the price at the same level as the previous year is, in a way, inflation. But there are other things added on that weren't available before, aren't there? Apple things? I don't use iTunes so this doesn't benefit me at all. Internet streaming.. Maybe that will but I do it already with a Denon ASD-3N hooked up analog via RCA and my HTPC hooked up digitally via HDMI.

But as stated before denon and others go for what the mainstream wants, the people who have specific needs and passions can be moved to other products or extracted more money from by external products. It makes perfect sense to drop things like a phono-stage or the laser-disk input or component out simply because most people don't want them and every product is a compromise. Don't want to compromise than you open your wallet. Proof in point my denon has a phono input

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post #548 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:09 PM
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Yeah. let's not digress. I'm going to move foreward but I just like the ritual of playing vinyl. So let's let it be.

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post #549 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Yeah. let's not digress. I'm going to move foreward but I just like the ritual of playing vinyl. So let's let it be.

Nothing wrong with that, thats why we are all here if we can't follow our passions we are lost but keep in mind denon knows there many (but not the mainstream) that like playing vinyl, they also know they are so passionate they will find a work around anyway or they didn't like the phono stage (and the $5 they probably spend on it) anyway. We see the same with the remote controls in many ways denon just gave up and shipped basic remotes fully knowing passionate people will replace them anyway and the mainstream could not care less.

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post #550 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

vinyl worshipping? Funny!! I've got stuff that isn't even available on CD and I've looked. Time to rip my vinyl to flac I suppose but it is just that.. time.. time I dont' have. Right now I still pull those old liquorice pizzas out of the sleeve and place them on the turntable each time I want to play it. It is a ritual.. a rite.. worshipping!!

Had to tease you.

I still have a turntable and about 100 rare records, but I used have about 1200 albums, all gone, as they took up way too much space on the walls. The better AVRs still at minimum need phono inputs IMHO.

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post #551 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

So as far as the 2013 models go? Any more info on the 2313 and 3313? I'm thinking I will be leveraging the m.y. rollover to a deal on one of the 2012's unless there's something spectacular in these. HD radio sounds good as streaming isn't always an option and a USB Phono amp would add about $150 to the 23xx so a 33xx is sounding like a better option.

So this sort of got lost in the shuffle.

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post #552 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Nothing wrong with that, thats why we are all here if we can't follow our passions we are lost but keep in mind denon knows there many (but not the mainstream) that like playing vinyl, they also know they are so passionate they will find a work around anyway or they didn't like the phono stage (and the $5 they probably spend on it) anyway. We see the same with the remote controls in many ways denon just gave up and shipped basic remotes fully knowing passionate people will replace them anyway and the mainstream could not care less.

Daniel.

I use the Denon remote to do set up then toss it in the box of remotes that has become a Harmony 900. Same with all the remotes for other equipment.

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post #553 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 02:50 PM
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+1... nice post daniel...

here on avs, the caterwauling about the remote will reach code red status... in the real world where 99% of buyers live, no one will care...

@sammy...

i think it's safe to say that if you asked the "average $299-$699" avr buyer whether they wanted apple integration (i.e. airplay, control app) or a phono input, the respondents would skew hard towards apple integration (and i bet at least 75% of them wouldn't even know what a phono input is)...

and even though you personally do not like apple, you have to be a realist about it... a large plurality of people do like apple... and those who do tend to have more than one apple handheld product (the old "saturn family" car commercials come to mind... )...

and not only do they have more than one apple handheld product, but they also tend to be apple centric households.... this is something you cannot overlook... take performance completely out of the equation... there are no android centric households...

because of the above, airplay is a much more sellable feature than androidplay would be... it's not only more sellable, it's essentially a must have... they would get eaten alive on that one feature alone by other cems...

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post #554 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Without getting into if i agree, one thing i know is that most phono stages in receivers of this level are not that great to begin with. So if you really want to get the best of that medium moving to a nice external pre-amp is better anyway.

EXACTLY.

Anyone who is THAT serious about vinyl shouldn't want to use the phono stage built into some entry-level AVR to begin with.

An external phono preamp renders this whole argument moot.

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post #555 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:05 PM
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I'm the only person out of five (wife and three kids) that doesn't have an iAnything. Not that I don't like apple, I just don't have one. When their phone has a physical keyboard for my fat hands I'll probably bite. I have my music and don't see a need to incorporate the iTunes app over the top of it. If I want I can stream it anyplace through the internet using Remote Potato or Plex but I don't, I just have it on my phone in mp3-192 so I don't have to worry about having a data connection. Video... Not even going to bother with that on my phone.

Like I said Apple makes a fine product but it is well hyped. They are stylish and clean so they have mass appeal.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

EXACTLY.

Anyone who is THAT serious about vinyl shouldn't want to use the phono stage built into some entry-level AVR to begin with.

An external phono preamp renders this whole argument moot.

Should we bring up the fact that now you get USB interface turntables.

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post #557 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I'm the only person out of five (wife and three kids) that doesn't have an iAnything. Not that I don't like apple, I just don't have one. When their phone has a physical keyboard for my fat hands I'll probably bite. I have my music and don't see a need to incorporate the iTunes app over the top of it. If I want I can stream it anyplace through the internet using Remote Potato or Plex but I don't, I just have it on my phone in mp3-192 so I don't have to worry about having a data connection. Video... Not even going to bother with that on my phone.

Like I said Apple makes a fine product but it is well hyped. They are stylish and clean so they have mass appeal.

but that's kind of missing the point, it's not just about Apple. These receivers also have DLNA, internet radio, Pandora, Spotify, etc.

this is about a larger trend towards network content, not Apple vs. other. The "phono input vs. AirPlay" is a totally false dichotomy.

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post #558 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

EXACTLY.

Anyone who is THAT serious about vinyl shouldn't want to use the phono stage built into some entry-level AVR to begin with.

An external phono preamp renders this whole argument moot.

I'm already looking at pre-amps. Not to drift to far, but any recommendations for one that has both USB and RCA out (or HDMI out if there is such an animal)?

Also, any heads up on the feature sets in the forthcoming 2113, 2313 and 3313?

I do like HD radio but an external receiver for that is maybe $100 so IDK. Just trying to figure out how to go about replacing my failing 889 and need to roll with it. 100+ watts per channel is nice but IDK if I really even need that much because my wife doesn't like it that loud anyhow... on the other hand, I think the more you have the less likely you are to get into a clipping issue and fry a tweeter..

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post #559 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

but that's kind of missing the point, it's not just about Apple. These receivers also have DLNA, internet radio, Pandora, Spotify, etc.

this is about a larger trend towards network content, not Apple vs. other. The "phono input vs. AirPlay" is a totally false dichotomy.

True, true for a lot of people this is what they want but it is another thing I don't need because I assembled an HTPC which I think is a far better solution. These days a basic one can be put together pretty cheaply. But how's that connected?? HDMI of course.

Again I'm in the minority. Just have to deal with it.

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post #560 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:17 PM
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BTW, how many HDMI inputs does one need?

BRP. Check. (covers DVD, CD, etc)
HTPC. Check.
STB/DVR. Check. *
What else??? Why 5, 6 or 7 HDMI inputs?

*Note that the STB/DVR will be replaced by a network cable tuner through the HTPC soon so that one goes away.

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post #561 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

+1... nice post daniel...

here on avs, the caterwauling about the remote will reach code red status... in the real world where 99% of buyers live, no one will care...

@sammy...

i think it's safe to say that if you asked the "average $299-$699" avr buyer whether they wanted apple integration (i.e. airplay, control app) or a phono input, the respondents would skew hard towards apple integration (and i bet at least 75% of them wouldn't even know what a phono input is)...

and even though you personally do not like apple, you have to be a realist about it... a large plurality of people do like apple... and those who do tend to have more than one apple handheld product (the old "saturn family" car commercials come to mind... )...

and not only do they have more than one apple handheld product, but they also tend to be apple centric households.... this is something you cannot overlook... take performance completely out of the equation... there are no android centric households...

because of the above, airplay is a much more sellable feature than androidplay would be... it's not only more sellable, it's essentially a must have... they would get eaten alive on that one feature alone by other cems...

You mean this ISN'T the real world? Damn.....I'm not sure I'd agree that 99% of users don't care about programming their remotes to be as universal as possible....but at least a clear majority probably don't. Although YMMV at the low-end.

I don't know if the research suggests that Apple buyers tend to be Apple centric as time goes by - I know that for all our mobile iDevices, we still don't own an Apple PC, and my wife still has a Blackberry (but I'm working on her). I do think that younger users are increasingly comfortable with being Apple Centric - you own an Apple & an iPhone, an iPhone & an iPad, and they're a lucrative, and non-trivial segment of their audience.

But for all that, you still have people like my 80ish mother that has an IPad and an iPhone, but could care less about integration. OTOH I don't think she's buying a Denon AVR....

As for Android "AirPlay", even though Android device uses are a niche mobile device, the other question is whether Apple has agreements with manufacturers enabling AirPlay for exclusivity on a similar streaming feature for potential competitors. I know I would if it were enforceable.

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post #562 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

but that's kind of missing the point, it's not just about Apple. These receivers also have DLNA, internet radio, Pandora, Spotify, etc.

this is about a larger trend towards network content, not Apple vs. other. The "phono input vs. AirPlay" is a totally false dichotomy.

Indeed all these features come on a card they buy from a company like BridgeCo. Airplay is just the latest feature they added to the card. Its not like they just add one feature its a whole package including dnla as pointed out as a counter balance to airplay.

Want to know what card you are using just perform a 'telnet' to your receiver/pre-pro. this is what my avp returns :

----
Daniels-MacBook-Air:htdocs scb2$ telnet 192.168.1.106
Trying 192.168.1.106...
Connected to 192.168.1.106.
Escape character is '^]'.
BridgeCo AG Telnet server
-----

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post #563 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I'm already looking at pre-amps. Not to drift to far, but any recommendations for one that has both USB and RCA out (or HDMI out if there is such an animal)?

not really my area of expertise, sorry but I'm sure there are other areas of this forum where you can get a good reco.

Quote:


Also, any heads up on the feature sets in the forthcoming 2113, 2313 and 3313?

I don't know anything more than has been posted in this thread. I can speculate based on past models -- for example, it's a good bet that the 2113 will have MultEQ XT (up from MultEQ in the 1913), zone 2 pre-outs, and some CI features like remote in/out jacks.... I would imagine the 2313 (in addition to DSX which we know) will have superior Zone 2 control like the 2312, with bass/treble tone controls and variable volume out option for the line outs.... and I would imagine the 3313 will have a few more high-end features like AL24 processing, SACD over HDMI, 3 zones, etc.

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post #564 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:27 PM
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Thanks.. BTW, what is AL24(+)? A stereo enhancement algorithym?

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post #565 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

not really my area of expertise, sorry but I'm sure there are other areas of this forum where you can get a good reco.



I don't know anything more than has been posted in this thread. I can speculate based on past models -- for example, it's a good bet that the 2113 will have MultEQ XT (up from MultEQ in the 1913), zone 2 pre-outs, and some CI features like remote in/out jacks.... I would imagine the 2313 (in addition to DSX which we know) will have superior Zone 2 control like the 2312, with bass/treble tone controls and variable volume out option for the line outs.... and I would imagine the 3313 will have a few more high-end features like AL24 processing, SACD over HDMI, 3 zones, etc.

We don't think the 3313 and up will be a 32bits design ? and as a result would have AL32+ ?

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post #566 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:32 PM
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I'm hoping the 3313 will have XT32 (fingers crossed) and is close in features to the 4311.

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post #567 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

BTW, how many HDMI inputs does one need?

BRP. Check. (covers DVD, CD, etc)
HTPC. Check.
STB/DVR. Check. *
What else??? Why 5, 6 or 7 HDMI inputs?

*Note that the STB/DVR will be replaced by a network cable tuner through the HTPC soon so that one goes away.

hmmm...

bdp.
mac mini.
atv.
ps3.
xa2.
fios box.

currently 6 for me...

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post #568 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Thanks.. BTW, what is AL24(+)? A stereo enhancement algorithym?

AL24, AL24+, AL24 advanced, AL32 etc etc are all forms of signal processing most if not all denon's now do where they take the input signal and upsample it to a format they use internally. The internal format is then for example 192khz/24bits. This makes all the next steps easer (all on the same speed and bitrate) and well its up sampling to smooths some of the digital effects out we talked about before that happen within the digital realm.

info :

http://www.denon.com/pages/GlossaryDetail.aspx?GId=13

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post #569 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'm hoping the 3313 will have XT32 (fingers crossed) and is close in features to the 4311.

Bill

be careful, XT32 is about audyssey and has nothing todo with a 24 bits or 32 bits design (and dacs) for example my avp is now XT32 but the bit depth is still limited to 24bits not 32 bits (changing that would mean replacing all 48dacs for one thing). XT32 just means that its 32x more powerful as the XT version.

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post #570 of 1844 Old 04-25-2012, 03:39 PM
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I'm hoping the 3313 will have XT32 (fingers crossed) and is close in features to the 4311.

Bill

well... since i'm hoping to sell my a100 for at least a reasonable chunk of change somewhere down the road, i for one hope you are disappointed...

it'll be interesting to see what happens... for the second consecutive year, anything "new" (other than the 4k foolishness) is basically trickle down... it's a far cry from those 5 or 6 years where every year brought some new "must have" feature in terms of spec changes, etc...

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