When do the 2013 Denon's come out? Any new features we should expect? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 1844 Old 01-19-2012, 06:30 AM
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why not build in a multi-network ports into the AVR

Is this basically adding a network switch into a receiver?
Or maybe a wireless router for wifi access?

I personally wouldn't want this since I can buy a gigabit switch for under $15 or an N router for $20. I would guess it would add more than that to the cost of the AVR and it would make the AVR bigger with more plugs in the back.
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post #32 of 1844 Old 01-21-2012, 01:27 PM
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I think Sony is putting in the Multi netword ports into their receivers.
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post #33 of 1844 Old 01-29-2012, 09:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Actually being sold in Japan over the last 1 1/2 years is either Onkyo or Yamaha has an integrated amplifier for multi-media applications that includes multi-network ports, I think it has 3 or 4 inputs.

The driving force is the internet connectivity as more & more content including video and audio services are being sourced from the internet and/or cloud..
Plus certain brands are downloading firmware updates directly to their respective product, as well as the increasing popularity of DLNA compatibility...

Just my $0.02..


You think there are AVRs/Pre/Pro with multiple network PHYs?

ROTFL

Uhh I think your looking at an 8P8C socket for something like Denon Link etc

As an engineer that hopefully understands IP networks and NICs what possible logical reason would any AVR processor or any STB etc embedded device ever have more than one network interface.

EVER

DUH

You're talking outta your ass

Just my $0.02..

or

You're smoking something!

PS Doh! wired PHY and wireless PHY so I guess some have two technically but three or four is just ass talk and the notion shows a complete lack of understanding of computer IP networks and relevant hardware PHYs.
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post #34 of 1844 Old 01-29-2012, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

You think there are AVRs/Pre/Pro with multiple network PHYs?

ROTFL

Uhh I think your looking at an 8P8C socket for something like Denon Link etc!

As an engineer that hopefully understands IP networks and NICs what possible logical reason would any AVR processor or any STB etc embedded device ever have more than one network interface.

EVER

DUH

You're talking outta your ass

Just my $0.02..

or

You're smoking something!

PS Doh! wired PHY and wireless PHY so I guess some have two technically but three or four is just ass talk.


The reason is simple..
More ports provide more capability for connecting other network products..
Look around..
The home theater and its various components are being connected to the Internet..
Check out the latest HD displays, Blu-ray players, music servers, Apple TV, Roku boxes..
Thats why certain services such as Pandora, Rhapsody, LastFM, Spotify, NetFlix, You Tube are being utilized..

The AVR and its multiple network connections are simply replacing the functionality of the router/hub..
If your logic/vision prevailed, then WHY do the popular selling routers made by Cisco/LinkSys, D-Link, Net Gear, TP Link, Vizio all have multiple network ports..

Just my $0.02...
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post #35 of 1844 Old 01-29-2012, 11:13 PM
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they should work with intel to make a built in receiver signal. With this upgrade you can hook up your wireless pc/laptop and transmit wireless videos and sound to your receiver for surround sound plus have your tv as a second monitor.
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post #36 of 1844 Old 01-30-2012, 03:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

For example, since the AVRs now rely heavily on the internet why not build in a multi-network ports into the AVR then it can really be a hub for the home entertainment system....

Just my $0.02...

Seriously explain to me how this would help the AVR's functionality in this regard in anyway what so ever.

The floor is yours.

GIGGLE

PS What you saw on the back of those units brother was an 8T8C socket for something like Denonlink or A-Bus or some kinda Control4, URC, Crestron etc wall control panel port or even an 8T8C socket for RS-232 due to back panel density issues with D-sub. It was NOT multiple network PHY MACs. TRUST ME

GIGGLE
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post #37 of 1844 Old 01-30-2012, 04:19 AM
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Solid-State is a little rough about the edges....

....but he is 100% correct.


I like my 4311ci and all it can do, but I don't want a receiver getting more complicated than this.
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post #38 of 1844 Old 01-30-2012, 06:24 AM
 
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I don't know who is right but I can tell you we are installing a lot of switches so these sources can all connect to the internet. Just the other day here are the items connected, receiver, BR player, Xbox, remote system and TV. This was a simple system some have a lot more. The Xbox could connect wirelessly but I prefer wires when possible and the switch was right there.

A switch built into a receiver or any device would save having another piece of hardware. Although, maybe they should all be wireless.
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post #39 of 1844 Old 01-30-2012, 07:02 AM
 
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Also, wouldn't many of these devices need switch circuitry if they are ever going to implement Ethernet over HDMI? That would eliminate a lot of hassles and cabling if everything went through on the HDMI cable between devices. Although I doubt anything with HDMI would be hassle free
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post #40 of 1844 Old 01-30-2012, 07:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Also, wouldn't many of these devices need switch circuitry if they are ever going to implement Ethernet over HDMI? That would eliminate a lot of hassles and cabling if everything went through on the HDMI cable between devices. Although I doubt anything with HDMI would be hassle free

Interesting point about 100 base TX in the HDMI 1.4 spec. Personally I don't like the idea of a baseband signal flying down the same segment as my TDMS transmissions. I also think the extra conductors are a pain for fabricator/assemblers to solder to HDMI connector housing PCB pads thus leading to more cable failures.

Personally I don't see the point in this other than using the Ethernet channel for device control and state polling etc.

Placing an Ethernet switch inside any of these types of consumer devices like an AVR is about as stupid IMHO and placing a VCR inside a CRT TV chassis or a DVD in a FPD.

On my installs for switches I use Netgear GS108T-200 and GS110TP managed smart switch but I will be switching to GS510TP for the main house switch at the structured panel. That new GS510TP can do 30W per PoE port. I also use GS105, GS108 and GS108P unmanaged when there is no VoIP, IP video surveillance or video conferencing.

The only other switches I like are Edgecore (SMC high-end) and HP. For router I use Asus RT-N16 with Tomato USB and Toastmans QoS setting as a base. For cabling I go full EIA/TIA 570A Grade 2 standard and pull two cat5e and two RG6 to any TV or telephone plate location. I use Belden 7876S banana peel composite cable.
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post #41 of 1844 Old 02-01-2012, 06:15 AM
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I'd like my next AVR upgrade to be to an AVR that includes video streaming over DLNA.

Currently I use my BluRay player as my DLNA player/decoder because it has the best user interface. If I could stream both audio and video via DLNA direct from the AVR then that is one less piece of equipment that I need to have turned on.

My preference for the audio and video streaming to all be done in the AVR is simple - less chance of multi-channel audio being delivered incorrectly and less distance from the decoder to the output circuits.
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post #42 of 1844 Old 02-01-2012, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

This week I am @ CES in Las Vegas and talked with key Denon management. They are showing a couple of new models but are concentrating on present models. This last year was not good @ Denon their sales were off by > 60% and greatly skewed toward the lower priced commodity models. Their financial results were very negative...
Google D&M Holdings and you can see the red details..
In fact this has resulted in a complete changeover in executive management, some that were there for over 10 years are now gone...

They did discuss some new product directions but these will not be announced till August in time for Fall sales.. And look for their new product lineup in 2013..

Just my $0.02...

I can't speak for others, but the rate of change in HDMI over the last few years has seriously dampened my appetite for buying a new AVR.

Just as 1.3 units were starting to become available, everyone needed to have 1.4 so that 3D worked.

The problem for everyone that bought units with HDMI v1.3 is that they're all now worth substantially less simply because of that. People that are going to buy an AVR that's more than $300 will care about which version of HDMI is present.

HDMI 1.3 was 2006, 1.4 in 2009. Who wants to lay bets on a 1.5 before the year is out? And if that happens, why would anyone then bother buying a 2013 model AVR, especially a more expensive model when it is obsolete before it has been bought?
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post #43 of 1844 Old 02-01-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

Seriously explain to me how this would help the AVR's functionality in this regard in anyway what so ever.

The floor is yours.

GIGGLE

PS What you saw on the back of those units brother was an 8T8C socket for something like Denonlink or A-Bus or some kinda Control4, URC, Crestron etc wall control panel port or even an 8T8C socket for RS-232 due to back panel density issues with D-sub. It was NOT multiple network PHY MACs. TRUST ME

GIGGLE

No, to be honest, I DON'T "trust you".

If we REALLY have to explain it to you: perhaps you are in IT and obviously have a gaggle of managed network switches in your home system. Most consumers do not. Add to that the need to connect an inceasingly wide range of broadband dependant products that may not have built-in wireless (e.g. TiVo) Sony DID introduce a model with a four port switch two or three years ago. It's out of the line now, but I assure you it was there.

Don't believe me? Look here.

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...52921666238657

I think Sony knows the difference between an 8T8C socket and a switch. Yup, quoting from their web site, I think they know the difference and are happy to answer your plea for an explanation:

"The STR-DA5600ES has a 4 Port Ethernet Switch so you can connect your Network TV, BD Player, and PlayStation®3 to your router via the AV receiver. (no need for an additional Ethernet Switch) (HDMI cables sold separately)"

Think about what you are saying before you blindly go into attack mode. Why would Sony have provision for Denon Link? Sony has never embraced A-Bus. Sony DOES push connectivity. At the time, a built-in switch must have made sense to them. Maybe not to you, but I guess you don't design AVRs, do you?


But don't trust ME. Trust what was on display at CEDIA in 2009 as shown in the image attached below. It was sold for a year or so before being discontinued. Was the idea a good one? Perhaps at the time before switches became relatively cheap and more products began to include built in wireless for broadband connectivity. No one ever said it was a GOOD idea then, or would be a good idea now. Good or bad, that doesn't change the fact that the product was very real.

I have no need to "Giggle" or make fun of anyone. Only the truth is needed. M Code knows more about AVRs and consumer electronics than any dozen people on this forum. Why do you continue to mock him? He's many things, but he isn't your "brother".
LL
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post #44 of 1844 Old 02-01-2012, 05:46 PM
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I'll tell you what would be nice is an 8 port gigaswitch built into avr's. At least have the same amount of ports to match the hdmi inputs. I don't think I have one item that doesn't need network connectivity now. I have 7 hdmi ports all occupied by my avr, including an 8 port gigaswitch that all of these items are connected to.

I also don't believe that high end avr's are needed or should be created just to support a dealer network to overcharge you. What's the point? In this economy,who are lining up to buy $3k avr's to begin with?

I have no problem removing authorized dealers to drive prices lower. The basic markup to support dealers is what in area of about $1000? Kind of criminal if you ask me considering most of us looking at the high end already know what the avr can do, which is why we are looking into buying one to begin with. I don't need a dealer to point out the obvious to me.

Speakers I can understand needing authorized dealers, but Yamaha, pioneer, onkyo and Denon needing them? Pointless
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post #45 of 1844 Old 02-01-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I'll tell you what would be nice is an 8 port gigaswitch built into avr's. At least have the same amount of ports to match the hdmi inputs. I don't think I have one item that doesn't need network connectivity now. I have 7 hdmi ports all occupied by my avr, including an 8 port gigaswitch that all of these items are connected to.

HDMI with Ethernet should address this, although the ethernet part of HDMI is only 100MBit/sec, not gigabit. But you will need to update not only your AVR to one that supports HDMI 1.4+ethernet but every other component as well. And you need to make sure that you have HDMI 1.4+ethernet cables.

If any part of HDMI needs to be updated in a hurry, it is the upgrading of the 100mbit ethernet channel in HDMI 1.4 to gigabit because 100mbit/sec is not fast enough for streaming HD content.

Ultimately, I think the better answer to your problem is to do away with the gigabit networking entirely and just use HDMI with its inbuilt networking instead.
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post #46 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rakosnicek View Post

If any part of HDMI needs to be updated in a hurry, it is the upgrading of the 100mbit ethernet channel in HDMI 1.4 to gigabit because 100mbit/sec is not fast enough for streaming HD content.
.

This is only true for uncompressed video.

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post #47 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rakosnicek View Post

HDMI with Ethernet should address this, although the ethernet part of HDMI is only 100MBit/sec, not gigabit. But you will need to update not only your AVR to one that supports HDMI 1.4+ethernet but every other component as well. And you need to make sure that you have HDMI 1.4+ethernet cables.

If any part of HDMI needs to be updated in a hurry, it is the upgrading of the 100mbit ethernet channel in HDMI 1.4 to gigabit because 100mbit/sec is not fast enough for streaming HD content.

Ultimately, I think the better answer to your problem is to do away with the gigabit networking entirely and just use HDMI with its inbuilt networking instead.

as there is a grand total of zero consumer devices that have implemented ethernet over hdmi capability, i don't think that upgrading to gigabit is high on the priority list...

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post #48 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 01:12 PM
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Well, they could redo OSD, as Sony is doing to make it look 'cool':

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/r...da3700es-video

Stuart

 

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post #49 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 01:45 PM
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^^^

lol...

on a side note, that right there is another example of what audioholics has become...

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post #50 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

lol...

on a side note, that right there is another example of what audioholics has become...

"Pretty cool/gotta have it!" being the two flavors of the vast majority of A/V reviews I've read on their site? Fanboy enthusaism for certain manufacturers by selectively reviewing (as opposed to previewing) products? Nah......although they did question the utility of the infamous Pioneer Steez boombox for "dancer audio", so they haven't completely lost their senses. It got a relatively damning "mildly interesting" tag.

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Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #51 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 02:32 PM
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^^^

yes... "gotta have it"? really? because you got a chance to see it up close at cedia? and yes, it has not gone without notice that their "reviewed products" list is, umm, interesting in it's contents in recent times...

not to mention the actual writing itself... it reads just like the kind of junk the old audioholics used to scorn...

sad...

- chris

 

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post #52 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 02:35 PM
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AVRs need to move to Class D amps and become much smaller, cooler running and sleeker. Right now AVRs are stuck at the stage of the old tube radio boxes. Think iPod.

Then put in enough processing/memory power to make it meaningfully software upgradeable (new room correction, DSP and OSD features) for the foreseeable near future. I know some bring up costs, but really, these components are pretty cheap at the source nowadays. Apple TV and Roku cost less than $100 retail and can run processing power circles around any current AVR.

The main reason this is not done currently is to promote planned obsolescence and to sell another unit, instead of updating the old one. And yes, some of those (particularly at the high end) who can't adapt will go out of business. But that's progress.

BTW, NADs upgrade ideas are laughable at the prices they ask for their modules. I know they are not high volume, but still....
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post #53 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

AVRs need to move to Class D amps and become much smaller, cooler running and sleeker. Right now AVRs are stuck at the stage of the old tube radio boxes. Think iPod.

Then put in enough processing/memory power to make it software upgradeable (new room correction, DSP and OSD features) for the foreseeable near future. I know some bring up costs, but really, these components are pretty cheap at the source nowadays. Apple TV and Roku cost less than $100 retail and can run processing power circles around any current AVR.

The main reason this is not done currently is to promote planned obsolescence and to sell another unit, instead of updating the old one. And yes, some of those (particularly at the high end) who can't adapt will go out of business. But that's progress.

BTW, NADs upgrade ideas are laughable at the prices they ask for their modules. I know they are not high volume, but still....

You release a 4311 successor with Class D amps and an upgradable video processing path with some cool features like the Radiance, and my SC-57 goes on sale within 24 hours. Sorry to turn this into Twilight Edward/Bella level angst, but joining the Dark Side has to get financed somehow.....

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Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #54 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

yes... "gotta have it"? really? because you got a chance to see it up close at cedia? and yes, it has not gone without notice that their "reviewed products" list is, umm, interesting in it's contents in recent times...

not to mention the actual writing itself... it reads just like the kind of junk the old audioholics used to scorn...

sad...

Talking about subs, certainly (I won't mention manufacturers but I think they're obvious). But their reviews of AVRs and speakers are at the 'everybody wins' level lately - not particularly useful for making decisions betwen units so much as confirming fanboy leanings for those so inclined, or the uninformed.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #55 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

AVRs need to move to Class D amps and become much smaller, cooler running and sleeker. Right now AVRs are stuck at the stage of the old tube radio boxes. Think iPod.

Then put in enough processing/memory power to make it meaningfully software upgradeable (new room correction, DSP and OSD features) for the foreseeable near future. I know some bring up costs, but really, these components are pretty cheap at the source nowadays. Apple TV and Roku cost less than $100 retail and can run processing power circles around any current AVR.

The main reason this is not done currently is to promote planned obsolescence and to sell another unit, instead of updating the old one. And yes, some of those (particularly at the high end) who can't adapt will go out of business. But that's progress.

BTW, NADs upgrade ideas are laughable at the prices they ask for their modules. I know they are not high volume, but still....

there's a reason why any "upradeable" avrs/pre-pros that have come out have either:

laughable costs to upgrade
or
upgrades that never appear...

hardware manufacturers don't stay in business without selling hardware..

as far as the atv/roku comment, i think you are underestimating the processing power that it already takes to perform all the features of a modern mid to high end avr...

class d would be nice...

and yup, costs are an issue... it's a cem eat cem world out there...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #56 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

AVRs need to move to Class D amps and become much smaller, cooler running and sleeker. Right now AVRs are stuck at the stage of the old tube radio boxes. Think iPod.

Then put in enough processing/memory power to make it meaningfully software upgradeable (new room correction, DSP and OSD features) for the foreseeable near future. I know some bring up costs, but really, these components are pretty cheap at the source nowadays. Apple TV and Roku cost less than $100 retail and can run processing power circles around any current AVR.

The main reason this is not done currently is to promote planned obsolescence and to sell another unit, instead of updating the old one. And yes, some of those (particularly at the high end) who can't adapt will go out of business. But that's progress.

Yes AV receiver manufacturers are outdated and unwilling to change. That includes the smaller players, none of which has the cojones to attempt take advantage of this disruptive opportunity.

More decisive however, is the role of consumers. They are passive and happy to play along buying the same old mediocre AVR platforms. Ironically they suddenly all want "AirPlay" but never stop to think that even a "flagship" receiver is outgunned
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post #57 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

You release a 4311 successor with Class D amps and an upgradable video processing path with some cool features like the Radiance, and my SC-57 goes on sale within 24 hours. Sorry to turn this into Twilight Edward/Bella level angst, but joining the Dark Side has to get financed somehow.....

luuuuuuuuuuuuke!!!!

luuuuuuuuuuuuuke!!!



heck, you release that, my a100 AND radiance will be on sale faster than that (and at a price that'll get them sold in under 24 hours )...

i have zero NEED to change, it's not like any electronics swap out could conceivably "improve" what i have now, from an objective standpoint... but this boy would NOT be able to resist a piece of bling like that...

- chris

 

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #58 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

there's a reason why any "upradeable" avrs/pre-pros that have come out have either:

laughable costs to upgrade
or
upgrades that never appear...

hardware manufacturers don't stay in business without selling hardware..

as far as the atv/roku comment, i think you are underestimating the processing power that it already takes to perform all the features of a modern mid to high end avr...

class d would be nice...

and yup, costs are an issue... it's a cem eat cem world out there...

Define upgrade - you can't physically upgrade amps and power supplies, but you can upgrade software to manage apps (as Denon does) with the right processor, beta-testing program and pricing structure. I know that not all CEMs can do what Oppo does for a small product line, but having a smaller product line, not putting R&D into incremental changes to existing units under a rebadged model number, and the like would go a long way toward building long-term CRM (if anyone still thinks that way in the electronics world other than possibly Apple).

Although add to my wish list: a slot where you could swap video or system processors

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post #59 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

luuuuuuuuuuuuke!!!!

luuuuuuuuuuuuuke!!!



heck, you release that, my a100 AND radiance will be on sale faster than that (and at a price that'll get them sold in under 24 hours )...

i have zero NEED to change, it's not like any electronics swap out could conceivably "improve" what i have now, from an objective standpoint... but this boy would NOT be able to resist a piece of bling like that...

Don't say that! There goes my rationale to not sit back and enjoy my non-Dark Side setup, and put money into a 3D Smart OLED TV or something instead of listening to my inner Vader - in the area of buying things I don't need. But I'll buy your A100 AND Radiance at your price....even if a Radiance offers little real world improvement without a LOT of CMS tweaking because I can....without the projector that we don't have space for

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #60 of 1844 Old 02-16-2012, 03:28 PM
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^^^

sadly, apple is one of the few that understand brand loyalty... it comes at a cost to those who are loyal, but we also know what we are gonna get for that cost... i freely admit to being a total apple drone...

imo, the cem's are more like the telecom companies... they are more interested in getting the other guys customers than keeping their own (not that apple is averse to poaching sales )....

i was referring to hardware upgrades on the "modular" avrs that have been tried, as well as other "purchased" hardware upgrades (for example, when i had my avm30, anthem wanted $1800 for the hdmi upgrade)...

as far as software upgrades go... i can see how boxes could be built to accomplish that... however, will the consumer pay for those upgrades? and will they be willing to pay the upfront hardware costs associated with it?

that, i don't know...

also, when you think about it, a/v tech has been through a huge upheaval over the last several years... a lot of the year to year hardware changes have been out of necessity (first the switch to digital video, high def audio, then all the various spec changes, then 3d hit when no one really saw it coming, and so on)... imo, we are going into a "relaxation" period tech wise, as we've hit a bit of a plateau for "home use" (plus the world economy really isn't conducive to huge investments in r&d)...

so looking at it that way, the "necessity" of upgrading hardware for the "latest features" may be reaching an end (or at least drastically slowing).... as there really won't be a "latest feature" to get... realistically, this is the first year in a long time where "next years model" won't have a major spec change or dsp implmentation (unless a certain unnamed cem gets off its can and updates it's antiquated rc system )...

one man's mildly coherent opinion...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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