When do the 2013 Denon's come out? Any new features we should expect? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1844 Old 10-24-2011, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a Denon 3312 CI . But should I wait? Will there be a Denon 4312 CI?

Are the jump up in possible features going to be worth waiting for?

Thanks Experts!
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post #2 of 1844 Old 10-24-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdSigmaChi View Post

I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a Denon 3312 CI . But should I wait? Will there be a Denon 4312 CI?

Are the jump up in possible features going to be worth waiting for?

Thanks Experts!

There are a couple new features that should be out by the next Denon installment but I don't know which models they will be in. One is Neo:X which is already in the higher end Onkyos although they won't support 11 channels like the Denon will. Audyssey has a new feature called low frequency containment that might be in the Denon 4313. Link I don't think there is going to be a 4312. I’ve heard it was canceled but not positive on the reason. That’s all I know of but neither of those features is a game changer for me. I just want the Denon 4313 to come out so I can try to find a nice closeout deal on the 4311. I am hoping for something like 70% off but I doubt that will happen. I went with the Denon 3311 for now because I didn’t see enough of a difference with the 3312 to warrant the extra dollars.
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post #3 of 1844 Old 10-24-2011, 12:23 PM
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Denon AVRs are released beginning in May/June each year. The next 43XX model to be released will be the 4313CI sometime next spring (likely before the usual XX13 releases). It will replace both the 4311CI and the 4810CI so will likely be priced near $3000. Denon generally doesn't release info on new models until around April.

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post #4 of 1844 Old 01-11-2012, 01:02 PM
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Note that Denon's normal schedule may have been disrupted by the earthquake. I wouldn't be surprised if they release fewer models or they come out later than normal.
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post #5 of 1844 Old 01-11-2012, 03:38 PM
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This week I am @ CES in Las Vegas and talked with key Denon management. They are showing a couple of new models but are concentrating on present models. This last year was not good @ Denon their sales were off by > 60% and greatly skewed toward the lower priced commodity models. Their financial results were very negative...
Google D&M Holdings and you can see the red details..
In fact this has resulted in a complete changeover in executive management, some that were there for over 10 years are now gone...

They did discuss some new product directions but these will not be announced till August in time for Fall sales.. And look for their new product lineup in 2013..

Just my $0.02...
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post #6 of 1844 Old 01-11-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

This week I am @ CES in Las Vegas and talked with key Denon management. They are showing a couple of new models but are concentrating on present models. This last year was not good @ Denon their sales were off by > 60% and greatly skewed toward the lower priced commodity models. Their financial results were very negative...
Google D&M Holdings and you can see the red details..
In fact this has resulted in a complete changeover in executive management, some that were there for over 10 years are now gone...

They did discuss some new product directions but these will not be announced till August in time for Fall sales.. And look for their new product lineup in 2013..

Just my $0.02...

I think everyone is losing money. There's too much competition. I expect one or two big manufacturers to drop out of the receiver business in the next few years. Like JVC did a few years back.
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post #7 of 1844 Old 01-11-2012, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Denon AVRs are released beginning in May/June each year. The next 43XX model to be released will be the 4313CI sometime next spring (likely before the usual XX13 releases). It will replace both the 4311CI and the 4810CI so will likely be priced near $3000. Denon generally doesn't release info on new models until around April.

Just so that we're all on the same page. The OP made a typo in his topic right? And meant to put in 2012?

That's what I assumed, but then I read JD's comment of "next spring" and it made me wonder if the OP really did mean to put in 2013.

So JD, when you say next spring, do you really mean this spring? As in a few months from now? Or do you really mean next spring as in over a year from now?

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post #8 of 1844 Old 01-11-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Just so that we're all on the same page. The OP made a typo in his topic right? And meant to put in 2012?

That's what I assumed, but then I read JD's comment of "next spring" and it made me wonder if the OP really did mean to put in 2013.


Nope..
No typo..
2013 for the entire new lineup..
Adding a couple of s/w features is qwik but the lineup overhaul takes time & $...


Just my $0.02...
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post #9 of 1844 Old 01-12-2012, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Just so that we're all on the same page. The OP made a typo in his topic right? And meant to put in 2012?

That's what I assumed, but then I read JD's comment of "next spring" and it made me wonder if the OP really did mean to put in 2013.

So JD, when you say next spring, do you really mean this spring? As in a few months from now? Or do you really mean next spring as in over a year from now?

The OP was likely referring to the XX13 lineup and considering my post was made last October, the information I had at the time was Spring 2012; and from what my D&M Holding source indicates .. as of today, that timeframe is still good for the XX13 line (still need to confirm on the 4313CI). Expect the new lineup starting this spring.

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post #10 of 1844 Old 01-12-2012, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The OP was likely referring to the XX13 lineup and considering my post was made last October, the information I had at the time was Spring 2012; and from what my D&M Holding source indicates .. as of today, that timeframe is still good. Expect the new lineup starting this spring.

I hope you're right! I've been in a holding pattern for a couple of months now, but I need a new AVR LAST year. I decided to hold out until this Winter/Spring to grab a 4313 with, hopefully, Neo and maybe some other bells and whistles for the aging 48xx/43xx line. I won't wait until 2013! I'll look at the 9-to-11 channel competition instead.
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post #11 of 1844 Old 01-15-2012, 09:45 AM
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M Code, do you know what the key features are of the xx13 models? In xx11 the must-have was 3D and last year it was networking features and Audessy DX. I was waiting for the price of a 2312 to come down as, apart from in very specialist settings, I can't really see what more one could want.

I think that's the real reason Denon sales are down. It is getting increasingly difficult to tell different brands apart as they are all getting so good. Thus whilst Denon remain the best from an audophile perspective, the difference between them and the rest is less than it used to be.
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post #12 of 1844 Old 01-15-2012, 02:33 PM
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Expect to see AM radio tuners start disappearing...
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post #13 of 1844 Old 01-15-2012, 03:00 PM
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The classic metrics such as quality construction of amplifier sections in receivers still matter, but perhaps rank lower down on the list of meaningful "hearable" improvements such as DSP RC and adherence to new formats/standards of the digital age.

Having access to your media, when and how you want it, trumps the typical audiophile metrics of quality for most. In any case, the audiophile companies have not yet fully adapted to the pace of the changing marketplace and offer quality products that often lag behind in usability and/or technology.

So the industry needs 4k and things like Audessey XT32 to filter down the lines to drive sales. I know they need to differentiate their product lines but I hate paying all the way up for things like XT32 when I know it could be implemented in much lower cost products.

Good luck to them if the 4311 successor is higher priced.
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post #14 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 09:49 AM
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I am thinking it's time to upgrade to a new receiver and replace my AVR-3803, I looked at the 3312 but it seems the 4311 is the successor to the 38xx line so a few questions come to mind -

Currently running a 60" screen 3d capable, dish 722 hd, sony blu-ray, xbox 360. Running 5.1 speaker system and no plans to change anytime soon.

1) Are there any features rumored to be coming to make it worth the wait?
1a) Should I wait anyways if the features aren't going to be that much better because the xx13 model line will knock the price down on the older models enough to warrant a nice deal on one of them?
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post #15 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 10:14 AM
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^^
There's likely to be no info released on the XX13 model features until April, although when the models are released this summer, there is likely to be better discounts on the XX12 models. Current discounts are upwards of 30%+ from some authorized resellers to include AV Science, Electronics Expo, and J&R but you must "call" them to get that price as they list MSRP on their websites.

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post #16 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 10:32 AM
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i wish denon would say something. I've been using my 4810ci for few years and have been waiting for a replacement for some time.
maybe i'll save myself a ton of money/time and snag pioneer elite sc-57... hrmm... (i need 3d! diectv, bluray and PC gaming...)

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post #17 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 02:45 PM
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Denon just confirmed that the new XX13 product line announcement should be made by April ... with the new flagship model (4810CI replacement) to be announced sometime this later this summer.

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post #18 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bathugeo View Post

M Code, do you know what the key features are of the xx13 models?

Nope.
@ CES there was little discussion about new models.


Quote:


In xx11 the must-have was 3D and last year it was networking features and Audessy DX. I was waiting for the price of a 2312 to come down as, apart from in very specialist settings, I can't really see what more one could want.

I think that's the real reason Denon sales are down. It is getting increasingly difficult to tell different brands apart as they are all getting so good. Thus whilst Denon remain the best from an audophile perspective, the difference between them and the rest is less than it used to be.

The problem of Denon is that there is really nothing new in the way of features, so they pursued a price strategy emphasizing lower cost AVRs...
Nice way to sell higher qtys of AVRs but totally destroyed their profit margin, that originally the higher positioned AVRs delivered..
Additionally, they lost control of their internet distribution channels which further eroded their profit margin so that their loyal Denon specialists started to drop the line as they made no money with it. Thats why Pioneer has the Elite line, Yamaha has the Adventage and Onkyo has the Integra so that they segment their products and respective pricing/features.

Going forward...
Denon needs to rethink their product features and distribution strategy...
For example, since the AVRs now rely heavily on the internet why not build in a multi-network ports into the AVR then it can really be a hub for the home entertainment system....

Just my $0.02...
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post #19 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The problem of Denon is that there is really nothing new in the way of features...

There's DTS Neo X

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post #20 of 1844 Old 01-16-2012, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post


Going forward...
Denon needs to rethink their product features and distribution strategy...
For example, since the AVRs now rely heavily on the internet why not build in a multi-network ports into the AVR then it can really be a hub for the home entertainment system....

Just my $0.02...

Multi-network port....sounds lke the new Sony STR-DA3700ES.
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post #21 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

There's DTS Neo X

That would presumably be the kind of feature that only a subset of the 43xx set would use (and really no one else). I mean how many people have 11 speakers?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #22 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

This week I am @ CES in Las Vegas and talked with key Denon management. They are showing a couple of new models but are concentrating on present models. This last year was not good @ Denon their sales were off by > 60% and greatly skewed toward the lower priced commodity models. Their financial results were very negative...
Google D&M Holdings and you can see the red details..
In fact this has resulted in a complete changeover in executive management, some that were there for over 10 years are now gone...

They did discuss some new product directions but these will not be announced till August in time for Fall sales.. And look for their new product lineup in 2013..

Just my $0.02...

Do they feel any of this decline in sales is due to other brands gaining marketshare?

Or that TV sales growth is not what it used to be and that is causing fewer people to upgrade their audio part of the home theater?
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post #23 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

That would presumably be the kind of feature that only a subset of the 43xx set would use (and really no one else). I mean how many people have 11 speakers?

True; not many.

I did until the weekend, when I went from 11 back to 7 ch and Trinnov processing.

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post #24 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LG_in_Bama View Post

Multi-network port....sounds lke the new Sony STR-DA3700ES.


Actually being sold in Japan over the last 1 1/2 years is either Onkyo or Yamaha has an integrated amplifier for multi-media applications that includes multi-network ports, I think it has 3 or 4 inputs.

The driving force is the internet connectivity as more & more content including video and audio services are being sourced from the internet and/or cloud..
Plus certain brands are downloading firmware updates directly to their respective product, as well as the increasing popularity of DLNA compatibility...

Just my $0.02..
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post #25 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 08:50 PM
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Crystal ball time. I wonder if the AVR as we know it is doomed? And possibly since computers seem to be taking over the medium, that a turn towards PCs doing everything but amplification. Have a PC with a few mono blocks hooked up to it?

Sounds good!
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post #26 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 09:02 PM
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The AVR in general doesn't have to be doomed. However TVs are evolving to be "smarter" and content will beincreasiny streamed directly to it including 2 channel music, so that poses a challenge to role of AVR as control/ processing enter.

To survive AVRs does need to take on more characteristics that we currently associate with HTPCs.

And that's the problem as current AVR makers are all geared towards s consumer electronics mindset of selling hardware, talk to customers as litle as possible and then try to get them "upgrade" hardware 10 months later. It's "pile em high" and sell via big box store.

To do what AVR need to do in future they need to be more like Apple or Dell making products that will be software upgradeable and customisable over a 3-5 year period.

And when have you heard of an AVR maker that provides that level of upgradeability and support or a real user community like what exists on the Apple or Dell website? They can't do it. There is no Denon-run website or community that you'd prefer to a place like this forum here. The opposite is true for Apple or Dell. So it's hard to see how they won't end up being the ones that sell amps or all in one systems to go along with the smart TV markets that they will end up being leaders of.
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post #27 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 09:09 PM
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Is it NAD with the changable boards? Thats getting close.

Sounds good!
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post #28 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

Is it NAD with the changable boards? Thats getting close.


Correcto..
This has been tried by other brands including Integra in the past..
Good basic idea to switch out various key function modules..
However..
As the processor power increases and reaches a point of max performance vs. cost it will becomes obsolete..
No difference than a PC or laptop or digital camera or smart phone..
One can still use it to do the basics, but it cannot handle the latest/greatest..

Not buying or selling, just the facts....

Just my $0.02..
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post #29 of 1844 Old 01-17-2012, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

No difference than a PC or laptop or digital camera or smart phone..
One can still use it to do the basics, but it cannot handle the latest/greatest..

The benchmark should be the PC or smartphone. And the idea should be smarter design.

What's holding those NAD products back is they were not fully re- thought or designed to go forward. For example It's not like ethernet ports or better processors were not yet invented at the time they came out. This would have make it easier to adapt product functionality and control. And it's not like they couldnt have used a flexible display. Nor have NAD ever say redone the GUi.

You say "it's been tried before". I say no, they didn't try at all. To borrow an old term we use in mangement consulting: what they were doing was not building new roads - they were in fact paving cowpaths.

For these guys to move forward they will need to think anew. I believe none of them are capable of it.

And that's why the anticipation is less when when we ask what new products they are coming out with. They are all stuck on a highly predictable, dead end path: the 2012 receiver line will have whatever new incremental sizzle Apple and Audyssey allows, which will be sponsored by more incremental gutting of the amps.
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post #30 of 1844 Old 01-19-2012, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Denon AVRs are released beginning in May/June each year. The next 43XX model to be released will be the 4313CI sometime next spring (likely before the usual XX13 releases). It will replace both the 4311CI and the 4810CI so will likely be priced near $3000. Denon generally doesn't release info on new models until around April.

If it is bulit well enough (not like their current products, and more like their older models) and has enough connectors more like the AVR-4810 had then I will get it. If it is done on their current price orientated, cut down construction path they are on I will pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

last year was not good @ Denon their sales were off by > 60% and greatly skewed toward the lower priced commodity models. Their financial results were very negative...

Maybe not continuing with the 48XX, 58XX, series over the past few years was *not* a smart move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zielin View Post

i wish denon would say something. I've been using my 4810ci for few years and have been waiting for a replacement for some time.


As have I. I miss the higher end Denon lines and by Denons cut down profit margins so do dealers and owner alike.
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