The "Official" Onkyo TX-NR3009 Owners Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 954 Old 08-12-2012, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

What is FLAC music?
Also what are the best settings to enjoy concert blu-rays?
Did some more tweaking. Turned off Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, Dolby Volume and the equalizer. Instead I selected the Audyssey Flat/Music setting, THX Cinema and Loudness Plus. This setup sounds more natural than all those dynamic settings, which made everything sound artifically enhanced. Dynamic EQ pumped up my surround speakers so much, that they completely overwhelmed my three front speakers.

These two are usually two of the biggest culprits for making things not sound natural. I hate dynamic volume for anything but casual TV watching and don't know why anyone would use it for anything else. IMO the main use for it is the huge difference in volume between commercials and tv shows. For anything else it destroys the dynamic nature of whatever you're listening to.

Dynamic EQ also has its uses, but for natural sound its not good either. If you look at the description it keeps an octave to octave balance so that one octave isn't more overwhelming or loud than another, but that's also not how real sound works. It's not surprising at all that turning some of that crap off helped give you a more natural sound with the orchestras.

If you're doing any TV viewing then that's where those two settings specifically can help out a lot, but for nearly everything else turn'em off in the source input config.

The only other thing I'll say, is that if your source is good, then pure mode is tremendous. Something like an oppo feeding in multichannel analog signal would also most likely sound awesome (I know it has when I've listened that way with something less awesome than an oppo). Then you don't even have to worry about messing with the settings, or you can tweak the settings to optimize for blu-ray movies and use pure mode for the orchestras.
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post #362 of 954 Old 08-12-2012, 10:57 AM
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i would have to say the same about loudness plus. just ugh. best setting for concerts? probably orchestra, audyssey dsx or just straight.

But Loudness Plus doesn't pump up the surround speakers to the point of distraction like Dynamic EQ.
Just ugh.

To my amazement, I found out yesterday evening, that the THX Cinema setting, is the best one to use for viewing concert
blu-rays.
I watched my favorite concert blu-ray, Chicago and EWF: Live at the Greek Theatre.
Everything sounded great, perfectly well balanced, detailed and not artificially enhanced.
It sounded "just right."

I'am quickly discovering that the THX Cinema setting, makes everything sound "just right." smile.gif

I am not running surrounds, and I don't like what loudness plus does to the bass. biggrin.gif

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post #363 of 954 Old 08-12-2012, 03:23 PM
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I am not running surrounds...

21dlabc.gif

Why would you have an HT system without surrounds? confused.gif

That's like driving a brand new Corvette ZR1 without any tires.
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post #364 of 954 Old 08-12-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

I am not running surrounds...

21dlabc.gif

Why would you have an HT system without surrounds? confused.gif

That's like driving a brand new Corvette ZR1 without any tires.

Lol. I wouldn't drive a corvette if I had a choice. But to make your analogy work, I am driving without a rearview mirror but so far, very good. Audyssey DSX and wides have helped a lot since ditching the denon 1712, but I do plan to get surrounds soon. But seriously, I am not missing much. Probably missing more with the DTS surround music and FLAC music I've been jamming hard lately. Hope my neighbors like Bob Marley, Ray Charles, Bjork and Beethoven. Muahahahahaha!

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post #365 of 954 Old 08-12-2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

21dlabc.gif
Why would you have an HT system without surrounds? confused.gif
That's like driving a brand new Corvette ZR1 without any tires.

LOL. just saw your gif was animated on my laptop. i didn't get the full spock effect on my phone. cracked me up.
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post #366 of 954 Old 08-14-2012, 08:17 AM
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Had an extreme let down with my new 3009. I just hooked it up last night, ran Audyssey eliminated dynamic eq and let it rip. I normally have an external amp hooked up for LCR but one of my motivators to get the 3009 was a seemingly robust amp section. Music was fine no issues, but first movie not at reference either I started hearing some funny sounds. I turn it down sound goes away, get on it again, and popping sound. Mind you my speakers are 99 DB efficient and crossed at 80hz oh and 8ohms. It doesn't get much easier to drive than that. I could always hook up my other amp but that's not the point.
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post #367 of 954 Old 08-14-2012, 10:13 AM
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Had an extreme let down with my new 3009. I just hooked it up last night, ran Audyssey eliminated dynamic eq and let it rip. I normally have an external amp hooked up for LCR but one of my motivators to get the 3009 was a seemingly robust amp section. Music was fine no issues, but first movie not at reference either I started hearing some funny sounds. I turn it down sound goes away, get on it again, and popping sound. Mind you my speakers are 99 DB efficient and crossed at 80hz oh and 8ohms. It doesn't get much easier to drive than that. I could always hook up my other amp but that's not the point.

What speakers are you using? There may also be something else wrong.

I drove my towers for awhile with the 3009 and had no issues and mine are significantly less sensitive than yours (85/2.83v/1m) and a 4 or 5 ohm load and had no problems.
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post #368 of 954 Old 08-14-2012, 10:42 AM
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Jbl 3677
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post #369 of 954 Old 08-14-2012, 10:48 AM
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Jbl 3677

Have you tried with

-other speakers
-different speaker wires
-different channels on the receiver

Did you use the external amp with the 3009 yet? I would say that you should eliminate those things if you haven't already. If you're hearing popping noises then there is a chance you got a bad amp section and it may need to go in for repair because the 3009 should have zero issues driving those speakers.
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post #370 of 954 Old 08-14-2012, 11:22 AM
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Thanks Fuzz, I'll eliminate some variables and try to narrow things down.
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post #371 of 954 Old 08-14-2012, 11:55 AM
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Thanks Fuzz, I'll eliminate some variables and try to narrow things down.

Your welcome, let me know how everything works out biggrin.gif
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post #372 of 954 Old 08-15-2012, 09:56 AM
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I just hooked it up last night, ran Audyssey eliminated dynamic eq and let it rip.

What volume level were you listening at?

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post #373 of 954 Old 08-15-2012, 04:25 PM
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If I remember correctly it was around 77 or so, not far from reference.
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post #374 of 954 Old 08-17-2012, 03:32 AM
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If I remember correctly it was around 77 or so, not far from reference.

Why so loud?

I listen to most movies at -28dB (0dB reference) and that's plenty loud enough for me.

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post #375 of 954 Old 08-17-2012, 09:01 AM
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We've been through the why so loud question before smile.gif
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Why do some folks find it necessary to turn up the volume to near ear splitting levels?
I listen to most movies at -30db, well below reference, and it's loud enough for me.
No wonder some owners are experiencing heat related problems with there receivers.
Turn the volume down and save your equippment and your hearing.
Just sayin...

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I don't consider -30db a lower volume level.
It's freaking loud!
You guys must be near deaf if you have to crank up the volume to -10db or higher.
Also I don't like small speakers.
Do you watch movies in the THX mode?
Is it the best setting for movie watching?

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Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

They said a fan on top of the 3009 sucking air out is fine, it will help keep the unit cooler. They did not recommend blowing down into the unit as you and I both have hazarded against (both of us in this thread btw) and I didn't ask them about putting a fan underneath.
Also, I generally watch movies at -15 to -10 although at certain scenes I'll go -5ish. It's not about being deaf (at least for me), after you run room correction, -0 should be reference levels. This is the point at which, in my room, a person can hear all details of the recording (movie or music) of whatever is playing (as I'm sure you know). So at those levels (-15 to -10) I'm getting the majority of the soundtrack, albeit probably still missing a few details at the very bottom and very top, which is the whole point IMHO of investing all this money in electronics and speakers. I'm trying to reproduce movie theater quality sound and get as close as possible to live music, which both happen to be well above what -30 would sound like on the AVR.
This doesn't mean that I watch everything at these levels, but when I watch very dynamic blu-ray movies or when the mood strikes me to listen to music as it was meant to be heard and recorded I turn it up. This is just my reasoning for having it that loud at times YMMV.
I'll also mention that many classical pieces are extremely dynamic and can get whisper quiet and then explode into a big peak and without having it up to near reference levels you'll miss tons of detail during those quiet parts. The same goes for certain movies. Again YMMV and other people just like things loud, I'm just trying to get the full effect of the recording.

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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Fuzz summed it up very well. I'd just add that in my system, I built it so that my ears would be the limiting factor not my system tappin out for whatever volume I choose to listen. -30 on my system sounds very subdued. But admittedly I am the IMAX type for many a movie.

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I listen at loud volume because speakers sound there best when played loud. You dont feel the bass or hear the crisp highs at low volume compared to higher volume. To me -10 to -15 is good for movies. Feels like your in the theater. Sometimes i listen to stereo music in direct mode at -0 to -5. It gets your heart pumping lol. To me -10 is not that loud when i've been in clubs and it sounds like there playing music at 100db. You can hardly conversate with someone. Im still young and my ears are still good. High volumes dont bother me yet.
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post #376 of 954 Old 08-17-2012, 12:43 PM
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Yep. And coming from a denon 1712 and onkyo 806, I am hearing many more things before at -40db than I did with either of those cranked up to -15 to -10db. Big difference. Can't wait til I can push this receiver higher than -10db. biggrin.gif

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post #377 of 954 Old 08-18-2012, 10:33 PM
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Why so loud?
I listen to most movies at -28dB (0dB reference) and that's plenty loud enough for me.
Because some of us can and do not live in an apartment. They do not call it reference level for nothing. When you can go reference the more power you can put into it the better. That is why I returned the Yama 867 that I tried to replace my Pioneer Elite receiver with. It would begin to flounder and fried the crossover and tweeter in one of my Polk speakers, Polk replaced those free under warranty BTW. So I got the 809 and it has been great but it has an HDMI problem now. No HDMI sub out which makes it useless to me now since it was my 3D solution and the Pioneer elite has outlived it. That Pioneer unit, while not 3D capable has an excellent amp section that does not get hot and needs no fans. So now I am seriously trying to figure out my next step. Not relishing the 1-3 month turnarund on the Onkyo warranty or the multi amp setup headache and electric bill but it would really kick. Perhaps a prepro? Man that is a lot of gear running but it would really be loafing along. Any Ideas?
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post #378 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 08:50 AM
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Because some of us can and do not live in an apartment. They do not call it reference level for nothing. When you can go reference the more power you can put into it the better. That is why I returned the Yama 867 that I tried to replace my Pioneer Elite receiver with. It would begin to flounder and fried the crossover and tweeter in one of my Polk speakers, Polk replaced those free under warranty BTW. So I got the 809 and it has been great but it has an HDMI problem now. No HDMI sub out which makes it useless to me now since it was my 3D solution and the Pioneer elite has outlived it. That Pioneer unit, while not 3D capable has an excellent amp section that does not get hot and needs no fans. So now I am seriously trying to figure out my next step. Not relishing the 1-3 month turnarund on the Onkyo warranty or the multi amp setup headache and electric bill but it would really kick. Perhaps a prepro? Man that is a lot of gear running but it would really be loafing along. Any Ideas?

How many speakers are we talking about which model polks?

I would never try to run a full 5+ speaker setup at reference level off of a receiver. There just isn't enough power on hand. Even if the pioneer didn't crap out it still wasn't delivering all the power needed and the amp section was definitely clipping during big peaks. I would guess that onkyos had that problem as well. The thing about the electric bill is that you're still not going to be using more power than you need. Most amps idle at about 50ish watts, give or take a few.

Now here's where the what class the amp runs in comes into play. Class A/B amps are some of the most widely produced HT amps because they offer balance between the performance of pure class A and the better efficiency of class B. So you'll be getting probably 40-60% efficiency depending on the biasing, but odds are you won't run out of headroom if you get a good one.

Class D amps offer 80-90% efficiency of what they're pulling from the wall, but their sound quality has been debated up and down. I know a few guys that have tried pro-amps in their HT setups and say they sound great. Others have tried them and say they can hear a difference. YMMV.

Class D is lighter, smaller, and more power/$ so it might be worth it to check out crown XLS drive core and the like from a place you can return them. Otherwise class A/B amps are easy to find.
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post #379 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 10:08 AM
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They do not call it reference level for nothing. When you can go reference the more power you can put into it the better. Perhaps a prepro? Any Ideas?

Regardless of where you set your volume, one thing remains perfectly clear.
The less digital processing of the signal, the better the sound.

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post #380 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 10:39 AM
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So yesterday, I was checking through the 3009's onscreen menu, when I stumbled across
the Direct Analog Subwoofer setting.

Apparently, when you select "yes," it sends all the low frequency output from the speakers,
directly to the subwoofers.
So I tried it and sure enough, all of the bass went to the subs!
It's like my subs were on steriods.

Anybody else try this setting?

Page 57 of the owners manual:
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-nr3009_5009_manual_e.pdf

Benq W1080ST DLP 3D Projector
Sony BDP-S5200 3D Blu-ray Player
Denon X4000 Receiver
Pioneer SP-FS52 Tower Speaker x 4
Pioneer SP-C22 Center Channel Speaker
PSA XS15se Subwoofer x 2
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post #381 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Because some of us can and do not live in an apartment. They do not call it reference level for nothing. When you can go reference the more power you can put into it the better. That is why I returned the Yama 867 that I tried to replace my Pioneer Elite receiver with. It would begin to flounder and fried the crossover and tweeter in one of my Polk speakers, Polk replaced those free under warranty BTW. So I got the 809 and it has been great but it has an HDMI problem now. No HDMI sub out which makes it useless to me now since it was my 3D solution and the Pioneer elite has outlived it. That Pioneer unit, while not 3D capable has an excellent amp section that does not get hot and needs no fans. So now I am seriously trying to figure out my next step. Not relishing the 1-3 month turnarund on the Onkyo warranty or the multi amp setup headache and electric bill but it would really kick. Perhaps a prepro? Man that is a lot of gear running but it would really be loafing along. Any Ideas?

How many speakers are we talking about which model polks?

I would never try to run a full 5+ speaker setup at reference level off of a receiver. There just isn't enough power on hand. Even if the pioneer didn't crap out it still wasn't delivering all the power needed and the amp section was definitely clipping during big peaks. I would guess that onkyos had that problem as well. The thing about the electric bill is that you're still not going to be using more power than you need. Most amps idle at about 50ish watts, give or take a few.

Now here's where the what class the amp runs in comes into play. Class A/B amps are some of the most widely produced HT amps because they offer balance between the performance of pure class A and the better efficiency of class B. So you'll be getting probably 40-60% efficiency depending on the biasing, but odds are you won't run out of headroom if you get a good one.

Class D amps offer 80-90% efficiency of what they're pulling from the wall, but their sound quality has been debated up and down. I know a few guys that have tried pro-amps in their HT setups and say they sound great. Others have tried them and say they can hear a difference. YMMV.

Class D is lighter, smaller, and more power/$ so it might be worth it to check out crown XLS drive core and the like from a place you can return them. Otherwise class A/B amps are easy to find.

I was looking at the crown xls amps as I was thinking about purchasing two to power my front speakers. It seems they are mainly used by traveling disc jockeys and pa systems for churches and such. And some of the reviews I came across for people that tried/used them for home use came across as it works, replaced terrible amps or bad amps in avr, and/or runs so much cooler than my previous amp. Did not see any clear evidence or mention of anything sounding better, but maybe louder. And taking a look at the details of the specs of the crown xls series it really seems these are good party amps where cranking it up is more important than hearing your material. Thus maybe why these seem to be popular with traveling DJ's who don't want to carry extra weight and probably have so many people screaming and hollering at the venue, clarity is of little importance.

butter and jelly please.
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post #382 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

So yesterday, I was checking through the 3009's onscreen menu, when I stumbled across
the Direct Analog Subwoofer setting.
Apparently, when you select "yes," it sends all the low frequency output from the speakers,
directly to the subwoofers.
So I tried it and sure enough, all of the bass went to the subs!
It's like my subs were on steriods.
Anybody else try this setting?
Page 57 of the owners manual:
http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-nr3009_5009_manual_e.pdf

No, the whole point of direct or pure audio, at least for me, is to eliminate the subs. If I want the subs involved I just use stereo.
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post #383 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

I was looking at the crown xls amps as I was thinking about purchasing two to power my front speakers. It seems they are mainly used by traveling disc jockeys and pa systems for churches and such. And some of the reviews I came across for people that tried/used them for home use came across as it works, replaced terrible amps or bad amps in avr, and/or runs so much cooler than my previous amp. Did not see any clear evidence or mention of anything sounding better, but maybe louder. And taking a look at the details of the specs of the crown xls series it really seems these are good party amps where cranking it up is more important than hearing your material. Thus maybe why these seem to be popular with traveling DJ's who don't want to carry extra weight and probably have so many people screaming and hollering at the venue, clarity is of little importance.
butter and jelly please.

It would be wrong to make such comments without actually hearing them yourself or using any sort of pro-amp in your setup first. Then it should also me ended with something like YMMV.

I've used pro-amps in my setup and it works fine, I don't feel I lose anything. I've read about plenty of people using pro-amps in their setups and them not having any problems or issues and enjoying the sound.

One guy on audioholics has used a crown XLS to power some of his speakers. Now these are $10-20,000 speakers and he's comparing them to some bad a$$ ATI amps that he has and he said he couldn't hear a difference.

Fact of the matter is, more often than not people who "hear" a difference between a well designed HT amp and a well designed pro-amp aren't hearing squat. Their brains have decided a pro-amp is such and such and a HT amp is such and such and that they won't sound different.

I should also mention that sometimes it can take a little finagling to get a pro-amp to work in a HT system due to gain structure. Theres a whole huge article on HTS about it. This could also be the issue when people say they "hear" a difference. Perhaps they didn't do their due diligence beforehand. YMMV, but the pro-amps I've tried out sound great to me.
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post #384 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 08:29 PM
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Well my 3009 is just a train wreck. Beyond the popping issues, I get no sound from the LCR preouts in stereo or any other sound mode. No sound from the subs in stereo but in other sound modes yes but it sounded almost like the drivers were blown. I could also hear white noise from the height speakers with no signal playing from 18 feet away. I hooked up my 1007 plugged into to the pre outs and all is good. I have to send it back tomorrow and eat the shipping, that sucks! I had a 3009 prior to this one that I liked and sounded great but it started malfunctioning so had to send that one back too within the retrurn window. I just have no luck with this model so I'm not gonna continue being a glutton for punishment.
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post #385 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 08:55 PM
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Fuzz is right on. I don't hear a difference between my 3009 and Qsc GX5 pro amp. All I hear is how much cleaner/louder they make my Polk RTi A7s sound. I don't have any gain issues with the pro amp. It was a simple hook up and go. I have a new found love for pro amps in HT audio. It will save me a lot of money in the long run.

AVR: Onkyo 3009...Onkyo 609 (Old)
Amp: QSC GX5 (powering RTi A7s) & GX3 (powering CSi3)

Speakers:
Polk Audio CSi3 (Center)...CS1 (Old)
Polk Audio RTi A7 (Fronts)...Monitor 60 (old)
Polk Audio OWM 5 (Surrounds)

Sub: SVS PC12-Plus...BIC America PL-200(Old)
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post #386 of 954 Old 08-19-2012, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Well my 3009 is just a train wreck. Beyond the popping issues, I get no sound from the LCR preouts in stereo or any other sound mode. No sound from the subs in stereo but in other sound modes yes but it sounded almost like the drivers were blown. I could also hear white noise from the height speakers with no signal playing from 18 feet away. I hooked up my 1007 plugged into to the pre outs and all is good. I have to send it back tomorrow and eat the shipping, that sucks! I had a 3009 prior to this one that I liked and sounded great but it started malfunctioning so had to send that one back too within the retrurn window. I just have no luck with this model so I'm not gonna continue being a glutton for punishment.

That really sucks. I hope you have better luck, because this really is a great model if you can get a working one. Best of luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeyayo50 View Post

Fuzz is right on. I don't hear a difference between my 3009 and Qsc GX5 pro amp. All I hear is how much cleaner/louder they make my Polk RTi A7s sound. I don't have any gain issues with the pro amp. It was a simple hook up and go. I have a new found love for pro amps in HT audio. It will save me a lot of money in the long run.

I would definitely expect you to notice a difference with an external amp and those a7's. I auditioned those and the A9's awhile back and I wouldn't ever own them without 300WPC on hand. They definitely benefit from more power. Glad to hear another pro-amp believer biggrin.gif
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post #387 of 954 Old 08-20-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzz092888 View Post

No, the whole point of direct or pure audio, at least for me, is to eliminate the subs. If I want the subs involved I just use stereo.

Thanks for the clarification fuzz.

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post #388 of 954 Old 08-20-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Thanks for the clarification fuzz.

What clarification? In terms of pure audio, that is what it's for. Two channel listening. Direct can go either way, subs or not. The big reason for being able to turn the subs on and off in direct mode is because if you're using zone two or three then pure mode is disabled. IMO, I just think it's easier to use stereo for subs and direct for two channel, but YMMV because every situation is different. I use the zone 2 so pure mode is kaput and I don't use audyssey so direct and stereo sound exactly the same aside from the fact one is crossing over and the other isn't.

You on the other hand are doing something different so you have direct+subs and stereo+subs where one has processing and one doesn't. This is probably the reason the subs sounded like "they were on steroids" Audyssey really tones down the subs, so with audyssey off and everything crossed over you gained bass output by using direct+subs.
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post #389 of 954 Old 08-20-2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

Lol. I wouldn't drive a corvette if I had a choice. But to make your analogy work, I am driving without a rearview mirror but so far, very good. Audyssey DSX and wides have helped a lot since ditching the denon 1712, but I do plan to get surrounds soon. But seriously, I am not missing much. Probably missing more with the DTS surround music and FLAC music I've been jamming hard lately. Hope my neighbors like Bob Marley, Ray Charles, Bjork and Beethoven. Muahahahahaha!
butter and jelly please.

Why is that..? That's a pretty ridiculous statement..
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post #390 of 954 Old 08-21-2012, 07:59 AM
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Hi,

I have had this amp for some time and saw your comments about the audio level making my think I may be missing something..

Could anyone perhaps share any reason why I have to have this amp up to 60db to really hear anything?

I use KEF T205s pack married to my 3009.

Audessey was run and when I checked it lowered all my speakers by about -7.5db.

i have all dynamic volume turned off etc but when watching DVD I find that 55db and above I have to listen at.

Am I missing a setting as it does seem I have the amp up load. I am not deaf my girlfriend also asked me to raise volume...

Is it my speakers underpowered? Or shall i run auddesey again?

Thanks
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