Emotiva, BEWARE of emotiva / issue resolved - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 547 Old 06-04-2013, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

It's unfortunate that Canadian owners are subject to this.

Still, I don't see the "value" in a product that you have to potentially experience extreme frustration before it performs to expectations. Certainly in becoming, essentially, an unwilling "beta tester".

Well if it is under $800 Cdn you can always head across the border unless you live in the far north and bring it back duty and tax free. It just costs you the $100 in gas, $150 in hotels, $100 in meals, and so on...LOL

At least you get something for the money instead of giving it to Fed Ex!!!

Wonder how we can get the Sherbourn down to under $800...lol We don't have to worry about the non-existant XMC-1 at this point as it IS non-existant.

Maybe Emo will remove the remote and sell it for $25? wink.gif
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post #182 of 547 Old 06-04-2013, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I agree 100%. I still can't understand why some put up with this when it is just business as usual with Emotiva prepros.

Bill


A Blue Kool Aid fool and their money are soon parted.

We all want to believe Emo will change, but...not in the non-amp stuff.
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post #183 of 547 Old 06-04-2013, 07:34 AM
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I'll be receiving my UMC-200 tomorrow. I can't wait to review it.

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post #184 of 547 Old 06-04-2013, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I'll be receiving my UMC-200 tomorrow. I can't wait to review it.

Can't wait to read your review.
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post #185 of 547 Old 06-04-2013, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I'll be receiving my UMC-200 tomorrow. I can't wait to review it.

I a looking forward to you review!
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post #186 of 547 Old 06-05-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I'll be receiving my UMC-200 tomorrow. I can't wait to review it.

Just read your review of the NAD c316bee and I enjoyed it. Look forward to more in the future.
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post #187 of 547 Old 06-05-2013, 07:28 AM
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Thank you for reading my blog and your compliment. Currently I'm at home waiting for the UPS delivery of my Emotiva. I think I'll do the test starting this Saturday and the result hopefully can be published by Friday next week.

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post #188 of 547 Old 06-05-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Thank you for reading my blog and your compliment. Currently I'm at home waiting for the UPS delivery of my Emotiva. I think I'll do the test starting this Saturday and the result hopefully can be published by Friday next week.

Great I am getting two XPA-1L on Friday. I am looking forward to see how they sound smile.gif

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-1l
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post #189 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 09:17 AM
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I couldn't wait until the weekend so I did everything last night, write the report just now and posted it.

Emotiva alludes that their $599 UMC-200 pre-pro to be as good as a $4,500 pre-pro. Is it really?

http://davidsusilouncensored.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/emotiva-umc-200-vs-processors-costing-4500/


now it's time for me to go to bed. I'm too old to pull an all nighter biggrin.gif


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post #190 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 11:35 AM
 
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Interesting observations on the UMC. Not having any analog/legacy inputs really hampers flexibility and when you add in how difficult the firmware is to update, the unreliability of Emo Q, their comparison to a $4500(what were they thinking!) processor is dishonest.

Surely they can do better with the 1500 XMC, if it ever gets released.
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post #191 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I couldn't wait until the weekend so I did everything last night, write the report just now and posted it.
Something in the report is unclear to me:
Quote:
The Emo-Q, interestingly enough, gave me three different readings when ran at three different occassions although nothing (not even the mic) was moved. Good thing, however, the readings are quite close to what my RTA compensation findings. But how about the people without separate RTA unit? How would they know when the reading is accurate when the end result was never repeatable?
If the readings are close to the RTA, then where's the problem, even if they differ somewhat on subsequent runs?

If the runs were 100% repeatable, it would not mean the accuracy of the sound was necessarily any better, just as you mentioned wrt to the Pioneer: >>(although not too accurate either) were at least constantly repeatable.<< Reminds me of >>The food in this place is really terrible. Yes, and such small portions.<< tongue.gif

Did you check to see if EmoQ adjusted the back speakers (in a 7.1 setup)? Or if manual PEQ is supported for back speakers?

Did you listen to the headphone output? Try 2-ch sources and step through the surround modes.

Did you look inside?

What do you think of the remote? Does it compare favorably with a remote for a $4500 unit? All of these aspects relate with value.
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post #192 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 12:25 PM
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Well, to their defense they only alluded that their pre-pro is comparable to $4500 processors. Which they failed miserably to even a $1000 receiver used as pre-pro. wink.gif

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post #193 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I couldn't wait until the weekend so I did everything last night, write the report just now and posted it.

Emotiva alludes that their $599 UMC-200 pre-pro to be as good as a $4,500 pre-pro. Is it really?

http://davidsusilouncensored.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/emotiva-umc-200-vs-processors-costing-4500/


now it's time for me to go to bed. I'm too old to pull an all nighter biggrin.gif

Harsh review, but probably correct. I don't see how any small company making pre-amps can compete with Japanese receivers at a given price point.
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post #194 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 12:37 PM
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1. The remote is very good, but irrelevant because anybody with home theatre setup will use a universal remote

2. The inside does look impressive with thick motherboards... but the end sound quality is no better than other pre-pro regardless of price (that I've tested)

3. The headphone jack, alas is only 3.5mm which my oldie but goodie studio-use Beyerdynamic that uses 1/4" jack. Most serious headphones use 1/4" jack anyway.

4. I'm not saying the Emo-Q to be useless, but how come three consecutive readings with absolutely nothing changed (I wasn't even in the dedicated room) comes up with three different readings? The Pioneer MCACC is about as inaccurate as the Emo-Q but at at least all 3 readings are consistent. I'm not saying that the MCACC is more or less accurate than Emo-Q. They are both close but not too accurate where Emo-Q failed to read consistently.

5. As I only use 5.1 channel, I can't test the 7.1 channel capability

6. As 2-ch goes, I have no preference between the UMC-200 vs MRX-300.

As my conclusion goes, bear in mind that the UMC-200 is a decent pre-pro, but to compare itself to even a $1000 pre-pro, it fails miserably.

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post #195 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Great I am getting two XPA-1L on Friday. I am looking forward to see how they sound smile.gif

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-1l

"Frequency Response: 10 Hz to 80 kHz (+ 0 / - 2 dB).

In terms of "how it sounds", are you going to tell us about those dips in 2db?
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post #196 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

"Frequency Response: 10 Hz to 80 kHz (+ 0 / - 2 dB).
In terms of "how it sounds", are you going to tell us about those dips in 2db?

How would I measure that! I will just tell you my subjective opinion!
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post #197 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 01:32 PM
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What dips? Frequency response is usually very flat for electronic components; looking at the curves in their test reports the -2 dB is the roll-off at the frequency extremes.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #198 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

1. The remote is very good, but irrelevant because anybody with home theatre setup will use a universal remote
I guess I didn't get the memo.
Quote:
2. The inside does look impressive with thick motherboards... but the end sound quality is no better than other pre-pro regardless of price (that I've tested)
Are they thicker than normal? Who uses thinner ones?
Quote:
3. The headphone jack, alas is only 3.5mm which my oldie but goodie studio-use Beyerdynamic that uses 1/4" jack. Most serious headphones use 1/4" jack anyway.
Serious headphones like my Sennheiser HD600s? rolleyes.gif Nevermind the inconsequential stuff, how did it sound? Did you hear and then plot the same crazy frequency response I posted? That would be strike 4 for me.
Quote:
4. I'm not saying the Emo-Q to be useless, but how come three consecutive readings with absolutely nothing changed (I wasn't even in the dedicated room) comes up with three different readings?
Depends how different they are. Did you show response plots, either of the room with your RTA or an overlay of electrical plots of the UMC-200 showing the differences?
Quote:
The Pioneer MCACC is about as inaccurate as the Emo-Q but at at least all 3 readings are consistent. I'm not saying that the MCACC is more or less accurate than Emo-Q. They are both close but not too accurate where Emo-Q failed to read consistently.
You failed to describe the nature and magnitude of the failure, so we do not know what you are talking about.
Quote:
5. As I only use 5.1 channel, I can't test the 7.1 channel capability
Can't? You can't tell it you have rear speakers to see if it allows access to the PEQ menu? It's a 7.1 processor, after all. People might like to know if it works for that.

Wow. No response plots. No mention of headphone performance. No basic check of 7.1. No details on how EmoQ fails. Just a lot of whining about lack of video connections, and shipping costs, all of which were known before you bought it. Have to say, not the most helpful review for folks considering a purchase, if that was the intent of the review. I may be wrong there. But if I were a manufacturer looking to generate reviews, it would be with that in mind.
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post #199 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Interesting observations on the UMC. Not having any analog/legacy inputs really hampers flexibility and when you add in how difficult the firmware is to update, the unreliability of Emo Q, their comparison to a $4500(what were they thinking!) processor is dishonest.

Surely they can do better with the 1500 XMC, if it ever gets released.

Even more interesting is that the reviewer was pissed at Emotiva for not giving him a freebie. I am sure that did not influence his review.
What you see is what you get. Only a fool would buy before knowing what connections are available. If you need one that is not available then simply do not purchase. All have things that some require and some that others would rather not have and not have to pay for.
Does Emotiva claim that the UMC has all connections of a $4500 unit or only that it has equal sound quality?
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post #200 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 02:59 PM
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1. Don't mean to argue, but I have yet to see a single install in the past 4 years which owner doesn't use universal remote

2. Pioneer, Yamaha at that price range use slightly thinner PCB.

3. Re headphone: I'm not buying a new pair of headphone to fit a less-than-universal outlet. Most receivers use 1/4" jacks.

4. You don't seem to get it. I'm NOT saying the Emo-Q to be garbage. All I'm saying that I find it disappointing when the room, mic position, every single little thing in the room didn't move, the reading should be identical. MCACC can do it, YPAO can do it, ARC can do it, Audyssey can do it. Why EmoQ can't do it? After all Emotiva truly brag about its Emo-Q.

5. My sincere apology, my brain must be not functioning properly, I don't understand what you're saying. I'll re-read it tomorrow when I've had enough sleep.

6. Emo-Q fails because it can not do repeatable reading, HDMI Xpressview is no faster than HDMI switching in most receivers. The point of this review is to compare UMC-200 to "processors upwards to $4,500" as alluded by Emotiva. I've never seen a processor beyond $500 that uses 3.5mm jack either biggrin.gif

As I mentioned, it's a decent pre-pro and you get what you pay for but their hyperbolae of comparing it to $4,500 processor is pure marketing hyperbolae since it can't even match the cheapo Anthem MRX-300.

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post #201 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Even more interesting is that the reviewer was pissed at Emotiva for not giving him a freebie. I am sure that did not influence his review.
What you see is what you get. Only a fool would buy before knowing what connections are available. If you need one that is not available then simply do not purchase. All have things that some require and some that others would rather not have and not have to pay for.
Does Emotiva claim that the UMC has all connections of a $4500 unit or only that it has equal sound quality?

Freebie? I never get any freebie at all from any company. Any unit I review I have to ship them back. rolleyes.gif nice assumption you have there mad.gif I never even get a T-shirt from any company I reviewed. biggrin.gif

Emotiva does not even claim about sound quality. They allude that the unit is comparable to $4,500 processor. In what way? I don't know.

And I absolutely agree with you!, what you see is what you get... A $599 pre-pro. No more, no less, especially not $4,500 equivalent in any aspect.

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post #202 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 03:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Even more interesting is that the reviewer was pissed at Emotiva for not giving him a freebie. I am sure that did not influence his review.
What you see is what you get. Only a fool would buy before knowing what connections are available. If you need one that is not available then simply do not purchase. All have things that some require and some that others would rather not have and not have to pay for.
Does Emotiva claim that the UMC has all connections of a $4500 unit or only that it has equal sound quality?

If you are going to suggest that not giving "freebies" is going to bias a review, then the opposite must be true in your world, that receiving freebies will also bias a review. That must be why Audioholics never saw an Emotiva product they didn't love.

On the analog inputs, it's worth noting, reviewers do this for readers. Not sure why it's a big deal for you, perhaps you should stick to audioholics reviews.

Emotiva claims this little budget entry level model has the performance of a 4500 processor. And to have such performance, it needs to have room correction that gets the same results when you redo it without changing anything else. It needs to have the painless quick firmware upgrade process that shows it was actually beta tested before release to avoid embarrassing incidents such as when an actual customer figured out an easier step by step process than Emotiva did. And it needs to have various legacy connections so it can perform with older high end components as a 4500 model would have, and it needs to surpas mid level avrs in actual SQ unlike the results in this latest review. It's laughable that Emotiva would use that ad campaign. I suppose the XMC vapourware model will equal units costing 12000 in Emotiva dollars anyway.

And while I've got you on the horn, it's obvious that you are still sore about your lack of Parasound amps. Look cat, you're going to need to deal with your unresolved Parasound issue or it'll fester and make you into a hissycat. Just looking out for you, audio-brother!
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post #203 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:01 PM
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I think their ad is a misprint. It is supposed to say 450.00 processor not 4500.00! Unless it is supposed to be 45.00... biggrin.gif
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post #204 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:12 PM
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That's more like it! get a $450 processor for $599 tongue.gif

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post #205 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

1.

4. You don't seem to get it. I'm NOT saying the Emo-Q to be garbage. All I'm saying that I find it disappointing when the room, mic position, every single little thing in the room didn't move, the reading should be identical. MCACC can do it, YPAO can do it, ARC can do it, Audyssey can do it. Why EmoQ can't do it? After all Emotiva truly brag about its Emo-Q.

MCACC, YPAO and Audyssey may be the greatest since sliced bread to many. I never found them to be any better than EmoQ in my system. I have not found a RC that I like. Both Sony and HK are as good as the others IMO. To each his own.
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Freebie? I never get any freebie at all from any company. Any unit I review I have to ship them back. rolleyes.gif nice assumption you have there mad.gif I never even get a T-shirt from any company I reviewed. biggrin.gif

I was referring to them not paying all expenses except the return. I just failed to clarify like you forgot to say Emo I not garbage. BTW, I would not want a review as lacking as yours made on a product that I sold either. I am sure Emotiva took that into consideration also.

Emotiva does not even claim about sound quality. They allude that the unit is comparable to $4,500 processor. In what way? I don't know.
If you do not know then how do you know they are wrong? Lots of claims are made by manufacturers in the audio business that are BS.
And I absolutely agree with you!, what you see is what you get... A $599 pre-pro. No more, no less, especially not $4,500 equivalent in any aspect.

I doubt that the majority of buyers needs a $4500 pre-pro. In that case a $599 is as good as the $4500 unit.

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post #206 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:27 PM
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Your logic is absolutely illogical. Any reviewer you ask will never review anything if the unit are not shipped to them. After all, if the review is good, it's free advertising for their company.

Also BECAUSE I don't know which aspect of the $4,500 comparison they are comparing it to I'm curious to review it. Apparently they are afraid to be exposed that their $599 pre-pro is just that... Which is a $599 pre-pro, nothing more.

You claim that most people don't need $4,500 pre-pro and I agree. If you need a $599 pre-pro, then this is the pre-pro for you AS LONG AS YOU DON'T EXPECT IT TO PERFORM ANYWHERE NEAR A $4,500 PRE PRO AS THEY ALLUDED TO.

It's clear you only read what you want to read.

From the title of the article it's clear that I'm comparing the UMC-200 based on what their ads claims ($4,500 equivalent -- which is not, amazing Emo-Q -- which is not, fast HDMI switching -- which is no faster than nearly all equipment I've tried).

It's also clear, however, you are an Emotiva fan to the point of the defamation of my reputation of your accusation for me wanting a freebie. Which is extremely insulting.

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post #207 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

If you are going to suggest that not giving "freebies" is going to bias a review, then the opposite must be true in your world, that receiving freebies will also bias a review. That must be why Audioholics never saw an Emotiva product they didn't love.

On the analog inputs, it's worth noting, reviewers do this for readers. Not sure why it's a big deal for you, perhaps you should stick to audioholics reviews.

Emotiva claims this little budget entry level model has the performance of a 4500 processor. And to have such performance, it needs to have room correction that gets the same results when you redo it without changing anything else. It needs to have the painless quick firmware upgrade process that shows it was actually beta tested before release to avoid embarrassing incidents such as when an actual customer figured out an easier step by step process than Emotiva did. And it needs to have various legacy connections so it can perform with older high end components as a 4500 model would have, and it needs to surpas mid level avrs in actual SQ unlike the results in this latest review. It's laughable that Emotiva would use that ad campaign. I suppose the XMC vapourware model will equal units costing 12000 in Emotiva dollars anyway.

And while I've got you on the horn, it's obvious that you are still sore about your lack of Parasound amps. Look cat, you're going to need to deal with your unresolved Parasound issue or it'll fester and make you into a hissycat. Just looking out for you, audio-brother!

I thought you would already know that add dollars and freebies or discounts result in great reviews. Parasound spends a lot on ads and probably gives a lot away. Now if Parasound or one of your favorites got a negative review you would criticize the reviewer as you do EMO.
Perhaps you are not as educated as most on AVS. They research and know what features and benefits are available WITHOUT reviewers input. Reviewers have been known to make mistakes.
IMO the UMC-200 is NEEDED by MORE buyers than the $4500 pre-pro. Most $4500 units are not installed by the user. They are handed a pre-programed remote by the installer and have no idea how to make adjustments is something goes wrong.

It will be a sad day for some if Emo gets that perfect unit. All they will have is cheese and no whine to go with it.
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post #208 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:38 PM
 
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Mudcat is a big time Emo-booster who has become sensitive to anything less than positive regarding Emotiva reviews. So take his silly freebie comment as coming from someone who doesn't exactly have the best judgement in these matters. For instance, he had Parasound amps, but sold them!
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post #209 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

1. Don't mean to argue, but I have yet to see a single install in the past 4 years which owner doesn't use universal remote
That's quite different than your original statement. It makes more sense, especially since you have not seen my system. BTW, I have a universal remote awaiting use. I cannot be bothered to program it, as it's so easy to use the supplied remotes.
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2. Pioneer, Yamaha at that price range use slightly thinner PCB.
Are you sure? And if they are different thickness, are they the same substrate material? Are they the same number of layers? It just seems that isolating thickness alone is a rather superficial criteria.
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3. Re headphone: I'm not buying a new pair of headphone to fit a less-than-universal outlet. Most receivers use 1/4" jacks.
Umm. They sell adapters for a few bucks.


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4. You don't seem to get it. I'm NOT saying the Emo-Q to be garbage.
I get that. That was not my question.
Quote:
All I'm saying that I find it disappointing when the room, mic position, every single little thing in the room didn't move, the reading should be identical. MCACC can do it, YPAO can do it, ARC can do it, Audyssey can do it. Why EmoQ can't do it? After all Emotiva truly brag about its Emo-Q.
Is there some reason you are not describing the range of differences you found on various EmoQ runs? I'd like to know how much variation is happening.
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post #210 of 547 Old 06-06-2013, 06:57 PM
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An interesting and accurate review, most noticeably your comments regarding Emo's lack of response.

A poor customer service company all around and outright arrogance from certain (Keith...) staff that only those with blinders can overlook.
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