Amps may sound the same---AVR's DON'T - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 72 Old 02-10-2012, 10:16 AM
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From looking at the graph, it looks like YPAO did a decent job. The graph is what one would expect. Somewhat flat to around 23Hz and then a slope downward. The sub must be pretty good to get a flat response down to 23. My subs typically start to slope down before 30.
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post #62 of 72 Old 02-10-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

That is post-YPAO as well, with no pew or other tweaks? What size room? Thanks for the graph.

Yeah, just post YPAO .. No other tweaks. (I don't even have acoustic treatments) -- well I did change the crossover on my mains from LARGE (YPAO) to SMALL/80hz.

The one thing that may change results a little is that I did have the Movie-Standard DSP active.

My room is 17w by 20l and 8h. It sounds pretty good.. so I haven't really had much motivation to do any more measurement.

I've since added subdudes for my sb13's, to quiet down some rattling. I don't think it affects frequency response.. but it did work to quiet down those mild rattles so I'm happy with them.
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post #63 of 72 Old 02-10-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

From looking at the graph, it looks like YPAO did a decent job. The graph is what one would expect. Somewhat flat to around 23Hz and then a slope downward. The sub must be pretty good to get a flat response down to 23. My subs typically start to slope down before 30.

Thanks.. yeah I'm very happy with the performance. The 2x SVS SB13+ do sound very good in my room, and I've been busy listening to music and movies :-)
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post #64 of 72 Old 02-10-2012, 07:07 PM
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I agree with the central premise - that DSP/EQ changes will make things sound different. Especially when they're, as M Code points out, aiming at different targets.

Michael,

See if this helps any with the room modes question:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/StandingWaves.htm (scroll down to "3 - Standing waves")

If I remember correctly, RealTraps' website has a spreadsheet for calculating room mode freqs.
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post #65 of 72 Old 02-11-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanhoek View Post

Yeah, just post YPAO .. No other tweaks. (I don't even have acoustic treatments) -- well I did change the crossover on my mains from LARGE (YPAO) to SMALL/80hz.

The one thing that may change results a little is that I did have the Movie-Standard DSP active.

My room is 17w by 20l and 8h. It sounds pretty good.. so I haven't really had much motivation to do any more measurement.

I've since added subdudes for my sb13's, to quiet down some rattling. I don't think it affects frequency response.. but it did work to quiet down those mild rattles so I'm happy with them.

I'm not sure it proves or disproves my original hypothisis of YPAO doing nothing (or worse) in the subsonic range. There's a clear tail off under 25 hz on your charts where you run 10db's lower at 17hz then at 24 to 65hz. SB13's +/- 3db mark is at 22hz according to SVS so that would be consistant with your findings. When I ran YPAO with no adjustments, I tailed off shortly after 30hz and was a good 15db's lower at 15hz, which I'm capable of being flat at with room gain using my ULS-15's (+/- 1db point at 15hz). I'd think with room gain a pair of SB13's in a 2700 cu. ft. room should be able to run flat to 15hz.


Any submersive or JTR users out there using YPAO only? haha.
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post #66 of 72 Old 02-11-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

I'm not sure it proves or disproves my original hypothisis of YPAO doing nothing (or worse) in the subsonic range. There's a clear tail off under 25 hz on your charts where you run 10db's lower at 17hz then at 24 to 65hz. SB13's +/- 3db mark is at 22hz according to SVS so that would be consistant with your findings. When I ran YPAO with no adjustments, I tailed off shortly after 30hz and was a good 15db's lower at 15hz, which I'm capable of being flat at with room gain using my ULS-15's (+/- 1db point at 15hz). I'd think with room gain a pair of SB13's in a 2700 cu. ft. room should be able to run flat to 15hz.


Any submersive or JTR users out there using YPAO only? haha.

I'll try to measure again tonight, but turn off the YPAO EQ by using the "through" PEQ curve. I've done this before (just didn't record the measurements), and didn't see any dramatic difference.. actually I saw more difference from engaging and disengaging the DSP modes on the A3000.

Would that be a good test to run? I may not have much room gain for some reason. My theater is on a second level, above the garage.. all the walls are insulated with blown-in insulation, and I have a lot of bulky furniture in the room (6 Berkline motorized recliners , 2x rows of three).

Thoughts?
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post #67 of 72 Old 02-11-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanhoek View Post

I'll try to measure again tonight, but turn off the YPAO EQ by using the "through" PEQ curve. I've done this before (just didn't record the measurements), and didn't see any dramatic difference.. actually I saw more difference from engaging and disengaging the DSP modes on the A3000.

Would that be a good test to run? I may not have much room gain for some reason. My theater is on a second level, above the garage.. all the walls are insulated with blown-in insulation, and I have a lot of bulky furniture in the room (6 Berkline motorized recliners , 2x rows of three).

Thoughts?

I bet you could get flat to 18hz. Try using the PEQ... even though the lowest band is 31.5hz, you can reach lower by using a low "Q" and then offsetting the higher end of the slope with another channel with a higher "Q" adding a dip even out the boost in the 31.5+ range. IMO the PEQ was the only thing keeping the 3000 in the house and not having it exchanged for a Denon 4311
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post #68 of 72 Old 02-11-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

I bet you could get flat to 18hz. Try using the PEQ... even though the lowest band is 31.5hz, you can reach lower by using a low "Q" and then offsetting the higher end of the slope with another channel with a higher "Q" adding a dip even out the boost in the 31.5+ range. IMO the PEQ was the only thing keeping the 3000 in the house and not having it exchanged for a Denon 4311

I'll give it a shot.. I believe you are correct though. I'm pretty confident that using PEQ boosts I can achieve flatter response lower, probably to about 18-15hz as you say... HOWEVER.. these subs are designed to roll off in that manner, and I'm concerned that using a boost to contravene that would affect amp headroom among other things.

Also, the subs have a pretty competent PEQ onboard, I could use that if needed as well.

I'll also try to measure in a couple different positions just to see, it's possible the room gain behaves differently, let's say at the 2nd row.

I think your ULS15's use an EQ boost to offset the natural roll off by default.
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post #69 of 72 Old 02-11-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

I bet you could get flat to 18hz. Try using the PEQ... even though the lowest band is 31.5hz, you can reach lower by using a low "Q" and then offsetting the higher end of the slope with another channel with a higher "Q" adding a dip even out the boost in the 31.5+ range. IMO the PEQ was the only thing keeping the 3000 in the house and not having it exchanged for a Denon 4311

Well, just got done running some more tests.. won't post the graph since the curves are pretty much the same as before. However, I have some observations..

I was a bit mystified by why the system measured the same when using ANY of the PEQ settings, including through, which turns the PEQ off..

I copied the settings to manual and examined, and found that YPAO is doing exactly NOTHING to either of my subs.. well, on SUB1 it's applying a -0.5db to freq 78hz.. that's IT ..

It's almost as if YPAO said, well that's pretty close .. might as well leave it alone

I then measured on the second row and the responses aren't anywhere near as flat.. it seems like I have some serious room mode problems on that second row, and YPAO is giving up because fixing that would seriously screw up the good response on the front row.

In summary, it seems I need something more powerful to EQ, and/or perhaps some room treatments to help on that second row.
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post #70 of 72 Old 02-12-2012, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanhoek View Post


I'll give it a shot.. I believe you are correct though. I'm pretty confident that using PEQ boosts I can achieve flatter response lower, probably to about 18-15hz as you say... HOWEVER.. these subs are designed to roll off in that manner, and I'm concerned that using a boost to contravene that would affect amp headroom among other things.

I think your ULS15's use an EQ boost to offset the natural roll off by default.

It might mitigate the headroom, but it may be worth a shot. Your room isn't very big, and those sb13's should have ample headroom IMO.

You are correct about the ULS's, I believe they don't raise the bottom but actually lower the rest of the range to create a flat response, but I could be wrong.

I just think YPAO has a long way to go to catch Audessey in the LFE department. I keep getting arguments that YPAO does a satisfactory job eq'ing subwoofers, but I still haven't seen anyone run flat to 15hz after running YPAO. On the other hand I have clearly seen audessey manipulate the subsonic frequency range to achieve a flat response.
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post #71 of 72 Old 02-12-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

It might mitigate the headroom, but it may be worth a shot. Your room isn't very big, and those sb13's should have ample headroom IMO.

You are correct about the ULS's, I believe they don't raise the bottom but actually lower the rest of the range to create a flat response, but I could be wrong.

I just think YPAO has a long way to go to catch Audessey in the LFE department. I keep getting arguments that YPAO does a satisfactory job eq'ing subwoofers, but I still haven't seen anyone run flat to 15hz after running YPAO. On the other hand I have clearly seen audessey manipulate the subsonic frequency range to achieve a flat response.

Hey, just finally got around to documenting my setup.. I think this should be a direct link to the post over at the dedicated theater forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21636073

That post might give you a better idea of my space and setup to compare.
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post #72 of 72 Old 02-12-2012, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanhoek View Post

Hey, just finally got around to documenting my setup.. I think this should be a direct link to the post over at the dedicated theater forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21636073

That post might give you a better idea of my space and setup to compare.

Good looking setup. Really like the seating. Good job.
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