Denon vs Onkyo, why does 1 sound better than the other?? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 225 Old 05-06-2012, 09:47 PM
Newbie
 
feuer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
With all due respect to those who think there is no difference in sound, I have AB'd all kinds of music between amps. I had a cheap Onkyo (about $280 retail) and then bought a Denon 3808 ($1500) after much deliberation. I was using a pair of DCM timeframes and loved them with the Onkyo. Not knowing any different at the time because I was an audio newby, I was clearly expecting the Denon to sound better. Not only did it not sound better, it sounded worse! I kept going back and forth between the onkyo and denon, as well as back and forth with the JBLs ($40 at a garage sale) and the DCM's and the JBL sounded clearly better with the Denon. I was sick inside because the JBL's are cheaply built and completely ugly but I could not get over the fact that they just fit the denon better. The DCM are very well made and cool looking, but I gave them to my girlfriend as well as my "cheap" onkyo. I still long for the days when I was "ignorant". Everything I have paired with the Denon sounds at least somewhat thin and tinny. Then onkyo seemed "fuller" to me. Perhaps it colored the sound to some degree, but this coloring was more desireable than the sound of the Denon (BTW, the Denon is clearly better built and almost twice as heavy). In closing, I would say that regardless of which receiver/amplifier you prefer in general, there is absolutely no question that everything in the chain of sound (DVD/Blu Ray players, recordings, etc.) affects the sound to varying degrees. No question whatsoever. I have spent many hours doing comparisons, and I hope to save others a lot of time and effort. Like many others have said here and elsewhere: learn to trust your ears (assuming you are discriminating and try not ot let other variables persuade you). I hope this helps at least a few people.
feuer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 225 Old 05-06-2012, 11:14 PM
Senior Member
 
darkhorror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 361
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
All receivers do not sound the same, some times the differences are clear other times not. A receiver is much more than just an amp it is complicated and there are many components. lots of things that can go wrong or be affected by interference. Much of these differences are imagined but some are very real, the problem is that sometimes it can be hard to tell. Something like quite a while ago I had both analog and digital connections from my CD player connected to my receiver. Tested back and fourth between the two there was a small but audible difference, the digital connection sounded better had a little more detail( was spl matched.). I was expecting the opposite to be true. I did the testing such that I wouldn't know which I was listening to.

With that being said many of the differences people hear are imagined. They hear what they think they should or want to. I know I thought I heard obvious differences in certain equipment to have those differences vanish once I did a little more testing. I am assuming the differences I thought I heard were due to how memory works.
darkhorror is offline  
post #213 of 225 Old 05-07-2012, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,241
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked: 977
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

All receivers do not sound the same, some times the differences are clear other times not. A receiver is much more than just an amp it is complicated and there are many components. lots of things that can go wrong or be affected by interference. Much of these differences are imagined but some are very real, the problem is that sometimes it can be hard to tell. Something like quite a while ago I had both analog and digital connections from my CD player connected to my receiver. Tested back and fourth between the two there was a small but audible difference, the digital connection sounded better had a little more detail( was spl matched.). I was expecting the opposite to be true. I did the testing such that I wouldn't know which I was listening to.

With that being said many of the differences people hear are imagined. They hear what they think they should or want to. I know I thought I heard obvious differences in certain equipment to have those differences vanish once I did a little more testing. I am assuming the differences I thought I heard were due to how memory works.

Sounds like you were comparing the DAC of the CD to that of the AVR...and that would depend on specific model of each as to whether they're comparable...I'd generally bet on the digital connection and the AVR but that would depend on which CD player/AVR...

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is online now  
post #214 of 225 Old 05-08-2012, 08:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
walbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

With that being said many of the differences people hear are imagined. They hear what they think they should or want to. I know I thought I heard obvious differences in certain equipment to have those differences vanish once I did a little more testing. I am assuming the differences I thought I heard were due to how memory works.

This is true, although I would probably replace "many" with "very nearly all" - even your "testing" in the first paragraph is flawed and will create the effect you're describing here. Just how the cards fall.

This is not meant as a condemnation - it's just a recognition of the nature of perception. It's nowhere near as static or accurate as many subjectivist types claim it to be.
walbert is offline  
post #215 of 225 Old 05-08-2012, 09:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 7,241
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked: 977
Quote:
Originally Posted by walbert View Post

This is true, although I would probably replace "many" with "very nearly all" - even your "testing" in the first paragraph is flawed and will create the effect you're describing here. Just how the cards fall.

This is not meant as a condemnation - it's just a recognition of the nature of perception. It's nowhere near as static or accurate as many subjectivist types claim it to be.

Subjective is tough. They say the "eye witness" is often the least reliable...so no surprise when it extends to "ear witness" as well.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


lovinthehd is online now  
post #216 of 225 Old 01-28-2013, 01:27 AM
 
Ricsim78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am so sick of the people who say all receivers sound the same. I do not need "scientific proof" as my ears work just fine. Thanks to 3 of my friends, I was able to a/b test with 5 people total and we all agreed they sounded different. WAY different. Same speakers, same settings, and no room correction.

The receivers we tested with the same Kef 5.1 speaker set: Pioneer Elite SC 65 (mine), Onkyo 818, Denon 3313, and Yamaha Aventage RX-A3010BL. The Yammie is the most expensive model, so everyone but me thought it would sound best.

We did not use room correction, set the HSU sub to the middle position, 80 HZ crossover for the Kef speakers. We also put in the speaker distances and set the sub at the highest allowable sub crossover. This takes "settings" out of the equation.

We used: The Knife's "Silent Shout", Poets of the Fall, "Carnival of Rust", Van Halen's, "Right Now" and the movie "The Dark Knight" Blu-ray on each one. Also some random songs by other artists.

Pioneer SC 65: Best sounding of the bunch by far but the most unforgiving if the MP3 is flawed. The sound was warm, detailed, precise, and we all picked it as the best sounding overall. Credit the 32 Bit DAC or D3 amps? All we know is it sounded nothing like the others. Music and the blu-ray sounded amazing.

Onkyo 818: Amazing sounding amp. VERY powerful with a robust, warm sound. Not quite as detailed as the Pioneer but more dynamic in movies overall. Best for movies maybe (we split 50/50 on this)? The sub sounded a little muddier than the others though. Sounds nothing at all like the Pioneer.

Denon 3313CI: Better for music than the Onkyo with a smooth, pleasing sound but not as good for movies. Good all around with Very unique sonic signature...just like the others!

Yamaha Aventage RX-A3010BL: Most natural sounding (uncolored) of the receivers. Best surround sound effects in, "the Dark Knight" but not as exciting as the Onkyo in movies or as exciting as the Pioneer in music. More of a "peaky" sound compared to the other 3.

So:

Pioneer: Precision/dynamics (slightly warm, most forward)
Onkyo: Warm/clinical
Denon: Smoothest
Yamaha: Most natural

For music: We chose the Pioneer as undisputed best
For movies: Toss up between the Pioneer and Onkyo but the Onkyo seemed to be most suited for movies.
The Denon: Good at both but a master of none
Yamaha: Best surround effects by far, good all around but a master of none.

If they were truly alike, we would not have agreed on our findings, opinions would be different or split, and we would have had a hard time picking a best. Now if we had more time, we could have calibrated each one using Audessey/YPAO/MCACC but I am sure they would have found the sonic signature was even more different.

None of them sounded anything alike, whether in stereo, direct, or in Dolby modes. Sometimes we heard subtle sounds in 1 that were missing from the other or produced differently. They are all around the same price range, so you cannot say we use a cheap amp vs an expensive one.

Also note that I replaced a Denon 2112CI with this Pioneer and the Pioneer was noticeably in another league with sound quality. My girlfriend thought I bought new speakers and was surprised when I told her I only changed the receiver.

We all agreed they sounded nothing alike. Note: We tried direct mode on each and they still sounded different just not as much. If they sounded all alike, we must all be imagining things. This test took a long time, lots of hooking/unhooking things up. It was nice to see for myself that in a true A/B test (sorry I do not have $20,000 worth of audio testing gear to analyze our findings for the naysayers.)
Ricsim78 is offline  
post #217 of 225 Old 01-28-2013, 01:37 AM
 
Ricsim78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
As an addon to my previous post, it is impossible for AV receivers to all sound the same.

They have different circuits, amps, signal paths, DACS, Preamp sections, processor sections, and thousands of other parts.

Just the DAC alone has a sonic signature different than others, get a sound card with removable DAC's and then try 3-4 different ones. Each one will radically change the sonic signature of the output no matter your output device, if you cannot hear the difference you have poor ears, poor headphones, or extremely bad speakers! Every receiver here has different DACS so how could they possibly sound alike...and that is just 1 of 1000's of variables.
Ricsim78 is offline  
post #218 of 225 Old 01-28-2013, 05:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bfreedma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 9 iron from Philly
Posts: 1,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricsim78 View Post

I am so sick of the people who say all receivers sound the same. I do not need "scientific proof" as my ears work just fine.

I stopped there. No need to go further.

Thanks for necroing a thread for that though....
bfreedma is offline  
post #219 of 225 Old 01-28-2013, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rdclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Philadelphia Vicinity
Posts: 4,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 191
I've never actually seen anyone argue that "all receivers sound the same." I've never seen anyone argue that "all preamp/processors sound the same, either."

The argument that "all amplifiers sound the same" is a different one, and can be applied to receivers only to the extent that their amplifier sections can be tested independently of their pre/pro sections. Which is often impossible.

I've never seen or heard of a published test that was limited only to AVRs that have pre-out/main-in connectors, and which then tested only the amplifier sections using a common pre/pro for all of them.

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

rdclark is offline  
post #220 of 225 Old 01-28-2013, 08:57 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 23,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 413
Quote:
I've never actually seen anyone argue that "all receivers sound the same.

Really? You haven't been on here much lately then. Whole thread on All Receivers Sound the Same.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446856/count-1-more-for-all-receivers-sound-the-same

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #221 of 225 Old 01-28-2013, 10:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rdclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Philadelphia Vicinity
Posts: 4,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Really? You haven't been on here much lately then. Whole thread on All Receivers Sound the Same.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1446856/count-1-more-for-all-receivers-sound-the-same

Those are still arguments that amplifiers sound the same. That the amplifiers happen to be built into receivers doesn't change what the argument is about.

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

rdclark is offline  
post #222 of 225 Old 01-29-2013, 11:12 PM
 
Ricsim78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I stopped there. No need to go further.

Thanks for necroing a thread for that though....
Who cares?
Ricsim78 is offline  
post #223 of 225 Old 06-28-2013, 03:06 PM
Member
 
mrbrian200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 11

this is an ancient thread, but my 2C, I own a 506.

This receiver has an audio quality I would describe as "synthetic".  It uses a Cirrus DAC, notably used in certain IPODs (the less desirable models that aren't considered suitable for audiophile mods to the output section). These DACs are noted for sounding "flat", with inaccurate "synthetic" HF and poor transient reproduction across the entire spectrum.   They are designed for ULP and never intended to pass audiophile muster.   Also being "cheap" they show up in low cost/entry level gear (the 506!).   Connected to garbage speakers the differences between DACs isn't necessarily all that noticeable.  Connect any sort of audiophile quality drivers/headphones even an untrained ear can pick differences in a direct A/B comparison.

 

I've never been crazy about the TX-SR506, it fell into my hands, I use it... someday I'll replace it. Give it to some kid in the family that only cares how loud the subwoofer gets and will  connect garbage satellites for which the 506 is a good match.

 

I do have a beef I have with Onkyo, however.  My 506 defaults after even a momentary line outage.  The SM isn't a "modern" SM, just a schematic (little function labeling) and parts list.  Maybe in 1985 this might have been an adequate SM for a clock radio!  Looking at it with difficulty merely identifying the relevant cap/supply circuit for settings retention.  Certainly Onkyo techs have access to some soft of block function diagrams/troubleshooting flowcharts...they aren't accessible to the outside world.  Assuming the settings are stored in volatile memory integrated onto the processor SOC.  But that's an assumption.   Ugh.   Even that undiscerning kid would probably reject it when it loses everything any time the power flickers like a cheap car radio.

mrbrian200 is offline  
post #224 of 225 Old 08-23-2013, 01:17 PM
Member
 
kirojon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

I had a mid level Denon prior to my Onkyo 805, I used both a pre/pro with a 6 channel Cinepro amp. I like the 'sound' of the Onkyo much better than the Denon. BUT, I use it only for movies, in the scifi/action/fantasy/horror genres, no music. The Onkyo 'sounds' more 'clear' to me that may be sensed by another as 'hard', 'brash', etc, but for the soundtracks of these movies makes them sound much more 'alive' in my HT. I think a lot depends on what you are listening to and what your listening style values. I'm not sure you can really make one brand in similar price categories sound like another. It certainly makes sense that the amp sections contribute to percieved differences but for me using the same amp for both Denon and Onkyo, the Onkyo still produced a sound that was more appealing to me, at least for the material that I use.

which speakers you are using? I have my newly bought Onkyo TX-NR626 and I'm looking for a satellite speakers.
kirojon is offline  
post #225 of 225 Old 08-23-2013, 01:34 PM
Member
 
kirojon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

I had a mid level Denon prior to my Onkyo 805, I used both a pre/pro with a 6 channel Cinepro amp. I like the 'sound' of the Onkyo much better than the Denon. BUT, I use it only for movies, in the scifi/action/fantasy/horror genres, no music. The Onkyo 'sounds' more 'clear' to me that may be sensed by another as 'hard', 'brash', etc, but for the soundtracks of these movies makes them sound much more 'alive' in my HT. I think a lot depends on what you are listening to and what your listening style values. I'm not sure you can really make one brand in similar price categories sound like another. It certainly makes sense that the amp sections contribute to percieved differences but for me using the same amp for both Denon and Onkyo, the Onkyo still produced a sound that was more appealing to me, at least for the material that I use.

which speakers you are using? I have my newly bought Onkyo TX-NR626 and I'm looking for a satellite speakers.
kirojon is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off