McIntosh MX-121 - any thoughts? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by elambo View Post

We're in no way referring to time alignment. Phase shifting is an unwanted side effect of the process of equalization which creates harmful distortion. This isn't debatable and it exists in both the analog and digital domains without exception, even with our best modern digital eqs.

I'm not sure why this subject is being shellacked with an ethereal layer of mysticism -- it's not at all complicated. Equalization causes artifacts. Period. We can mask the problem with vague terminology but we can't hide the effects. Companies have spent millions and millions trying.

You have to differentiate between the analog and the digital domain.
In the digital domain using FIR filters, as Audyssey does, does not cause an unwelcome frequency dependent phase shift as in analog filter designs, meaning group delay is constant, if wanted or needed.

But using phase shifting techniques in a carefully planned way you then might time align the output of two or more sources working in the same sound field.
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post #272 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not at all unfamiliar with the claims of zero phase shift in the digital domain. However, in actuality, tests have shown that there is, in fact, a slight shift surrounding the frequencies being boosted/cut. It's easily verified by running an inversion test. A null test. If distortion-free the resulting audio would be digital black. It isn't.

I agree, there's great value in time alignment. Different subject.
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post #273 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

I'm not at all unfamiliar with the claims of zero phase shift in the digital domain. However, in actuality, tests have shown that there is, in fact, a slight shift surrounding the frequencies being boosted/cut. It's easily verified by running an inversion test. A null test. If distortion-free the resulting audio would be digital black. It isn't.

Have these tests been performed on recent versions of Audyssey? Lyngdorf? Dirac? Trinnov? Can you provide a link or links to the tests? Were audibility tests performed?

Thanks.
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post #274 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

That's a more complicated way of saying that equalization corrects for the ill effects of an unclean signal path. Certainly that's the primary purpose of eq in a playback system, and I think we all understand its potential chore as a counterbalance for impure - we could say problematic - electronics, or even personal preferences (in the form of adding treble or bass to one's taste), but here we're talking about compensation for the ill effects introduced by the acoustic properties of the listening environment. It's a bit like having a broken leg, installing a cast, and suggesting that the cast allows the patient to run a marathon as efficiently as a person without a cast. The sum of +1 and -1 is NOT zero because we don't have a way of subtracting a perfectly inverted value for +1. So our total is 0.0234, so to speak.

Anyway, room correction schemes, such as Audyssey, emit test sweeps through much of the same paths followed by our input sources (within the unit, but also cables, amps, speakers, etc.), so many of the issues inherent within the signal path will be present within the sweeps themselves, and thus attempts will be made to compensate for them by Audyssey's corrective filtering, introducing, once again, unwanted artifacts in the form of additional distortion. It's trying to fix acoustic AND electric deviations from a flat line.

This is another way of saying that the more a signal path is faulted, the more heavy lifting Audyssey will have to do. The trouble with that equation is that the less expensive units have the "dirtier" paths, accompanied by the less effective versions of room correction algorithms, and therefor a higher level of distortion.

Once again, this is swimming in a great pool of minutia, and it's hardly worth making these types of waves, especially in an MX-121 opinion thread. It feels like we're halving an onion into infinitesimally thin pieces and there's no taste left. We've lost sight of the recipe.

I had begun quibbling with every one of your statements (except the opening sentence and the closing paragraph) but I think it is time to leave it alone.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #275 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

Looks nice. I wonder if MSRP is the same as the 150.

killer unit! Very nice retail price of $12,500.00 USD
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post #276 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 04:19 PM
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The sound quality alone is worth the admission price!

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post #277 of 651 Old 04-04-2012, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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First hand reviews of the 121 are slow to roll in. How are the owner's feeling about it?

I'm still happy with the sound now that the Pall Labs amp is in. And the Transparent Audio cables are staying, too. The AirPlay glitches were attributed to an ethernet switch which was temperamental and has since gone south. After replacing it, AirPlay and the web interface are rock solid.
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post #278 of 651 Old 04-05-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

killer unit! Very nice retail price of $12,500.00 USD

Quote:
Originally Posted by scanido View Post

The sound quality alone is worth the admission price!

No doubt that its good hardware, but really @ $12.5K that can be easly become outdated with the next video/audio uptick.
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post #279 of 651 Old 04-05-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

No doubt that its good hardware, but really @ $12.5K that can be easly become outdated with the next video/audio uptick.

true, but I'd love to have one. I'd be first in line if I had won even a piece of that $640,000,000.00-plus MegaMillions lottery last week. Just think, for two of these MX-121 unit's you could trade for my fairly new Mini Cooper-S sedan

Anyway, I believe this (MX-121) unit could go for a while being it does 3D, DLNA, etc.,...maybe 5 or 6 years?
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post #280 of 651 Old 04-05-2012, 08:03 PM
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The real question for upgrades is what and when will HDMI 2.0 come out and will it really be needed by anyone. It is supposed to be a year to two out.

If made modular the 150/1 and 121 could be upgraded for years. Also just as the 121 the 150 is not actually sold at retail price and the same % discount adds up quickly on the 151.

Anthems and Thetas are made this way and you can pop out an old board and pop in a new one and off you go.

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post #281 of 651 Old 04-07-2012, 11:57 AM
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I have this processor as part of my home network and have enabled file sharing. However, I do not know how to access my music files. Can anyone give me some instruction?

Thank you.
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post #282 of 651 Old 04-07-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StockInv View Post

I have this processor as part of my home network and have enabled file sharing. However, I do not know how to access my music files. Can anyone give me some instruction?

Thank you.

The mx121 will only be able to access music from an iTunes connected library via AirPlay or from a directly attached USB drive. If you have set up AirPlay and synced the mx121 to you library, then you should be able to select the mx121as the speaker by selecting the pop up menu in iTunes that looks likes a small square on top of a triangle. It is also important that you switch the mx121 to the NET/USB input on the remote so that you get playback from those sources. You should aso be able to access any USB drives on this input. Hope this helps.
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post #283 of 651 Old 04-07-2012, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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You aren't required to switch the input when playing via AirPlay. Hitting play in iTunes with the MX121 selected as the playback device will automatically switch the 121 to that input.
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post #284 of 651 Old 04-07-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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While buying new cables today, I asked my local high end dealer - a VERY long time Mac boutique shop - about the 121, 151 and new crop of products. He feels that Mac is making strides, producing better things at lower costs. I asked specifically about the 121 and its lower price and whether or not he felt that it was a compromise. He looked at me oddly as though I wasn't paying attention and repeated his initial statement -- that they're doing much more with less, which explains the potential for a lower MSRP.
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post #285 of 651 Old 04-08-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

You aren't required to switch the input when playing via AirPlay. Hitting play in iTunes with the MX121 selected as the playback device will automatically switch the 121 to that input.

This is the same way on most (all?) marantz & denon players, They are probably using the same bridgeCo part. The downside is that you override the whole switching idea once something is coming in (like airplay) from the bridgeCo card. Would rather that it would act like a normal input so attaching external airplay using appletv's makes more sense for one i can have multiple of them and video.

Daniel.

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post #286 of 651 Old 04-08-2012, 07:46 AM
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I am actually thinking of taking my 805 bookshelf and putting them in back and buying the 803 diamonds....... Think that would be the perfect but not sure I want to spend the money. think it is worth it?

Consider the B&W PM1 as your back speakers. Great reviews.
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post #287 of 651 Old 04-08-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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In my situation, it has been perfect that AirPlay overrides other inputs. As one example, I can jump on the iPhone from anywhere in the house, hit play, and I don't have to touch the 121. I also have a MacMini connected for video and CD-quality audio, but that requires more interaction. One primary advantage to AirPlay is that it switches the 121 into monitor-mode and the rest is done remotely via iTunes. I want as little interaction with the 121 as possible.
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post #288 of 651 Old 04-09-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

In my situation, it has been perfect that AirPlay overrides other inputs. As one example, I can jump on the iPhone from anywhere in the house, hit play, and I don't have to touch the 121. I also have a MacMini connected for video and CD-quality audio, but that requires more interaction. One primary advantage to AirPlay is that it switches the 121 into monitor-mode and the rest is done remotely via iTunes. I want as little interaction with the 121 as possible.

This might not be the thread to discuss this common design that all bridgeCo boards seem to share. Maybe its something apple demands but from a av pre/pro switcher its kind of weird that it overrides and limits you to one signal path. It would be nice if every input had a priority but not forced as it is now. Would be nice to know if this is something apple demands of 'airplay' speakers. (its really AirTunes since airplay assumes also video).

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post #289 of 651 Old 04-09-2012, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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It's still an AirPlay function, using AirPlay protocols. The option for video remains present, though I doubt Apple will allow video streaming to the 121 -- it could impede the sales of other Apple products meant to serve that purpose. I hope they do because it would open up a slew of new options.
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post #290 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 01:06 AM
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So I finally received my MX121 yesterday. Ran into a problem straight away. It's to high for my AV rack. It has very long feets. So I had to replace them with some lower acoustic cushions. Worked like a charm. Still plenty of room for ventilation.

Has it connected now to my Parasound Halo A51. Initial impressions are good. Tried first Airplay and it sounded quite badly. But then I setup my speakers and then it got much better.

I had a Denon 4308 receiver before and I must say the menus look almost the same. That's a little disappointing. I know that they share Audessy but I thought that Mcintosh made their own menu system.

And has anyone else reacted to that the Mcintosh when it's dark, is lit up like a christmas tree? Not so good when you are watching a movie.
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post #291 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

It's still an AirPlay function, using AirPlay protocols. The option for video remains present, though I doubt Apple will allow video streaming to the 121 -- it could impede the sales of other Apple products meant to serve that purpose. I hope they do because it would open up a slew of new options.

Sorry but they most likely are using the same BridgeCo board the others are using and its limited to audio. You can proof me wrong probably by doing a telnet to its port it probably still gives its name/brand/model. I am with you that it would be nice if it also supports video and apple will allow it at some point my guess is they will only allow it once their figure out how far they want to take the protocols as a apple developer its clear they are not done with changing it and i think iOS6/10.8 will show changes again.

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post #292 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dancoh View Post

So I finally received my MX121 yesterday. Ran into a problem straight away. It's to high for my AV rack. It has very long feets. So I had to replace them with some lower acoustic cushions. Worked like a charm. Still plenty of room for ventilation.

Has it connected now to my Parasound Halo A51. Initial impressions are good. Tried first Airplay and it sounded quite badly. But then I setup my speakers and then it got much better.

I had a Denon 4308 receiver before and I must say the menus look almost the same. That's a little disappointing. I know that they share Audessy but I thought that Mcintosh made their own menu system.

And has anyone else reacted to that the Mcintosh when it's dark, is lit up like a christmas tree? Not so good when you are watching a movie.

It sounds like you're ignoring the manual. All of these things are in there, along with some other suggestions for optimizing sound.

McIntosh prioritizes audio so they borrow a few less important things, like the remote and menu software. You want to be disappointed with menus, take a look at a Krell. They're atrocious, but they get the job done quickly. The 121's menus are extremely user-friendly, but for better results log in with a web browser.

Go through the setup menu -- the front panel lights can be set to turn off when unused for a certain period of time.
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post #293 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 09:45 AM
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I don't have mine hooked up through the web browser...is everything there also in the normal menus?

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post #294 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by elambo View Post


It sounds like you're ignoring the manual. All of these things are in there, along with some other suggestions for optimizing sound.

McIntosh prioritizes audio so they borrow a few less important things, like the remote and menu software. You want to be disappointed with menus, take a look at a Krell. They're atrocious, but they get the job done quickly. The 121's menus are extremely user-friendly, but for better results log in with a web browser.

Go through the setup menu -- the front panel lights can be set to turn off when unused for a certain period of time.

That was my first impressions after only a couple of hours. Now I have more thouroghly set it up. And I must say i'm very pleased.

Yes the web-interface is good. Also exactly the same as on denon. It's not super, but get's the job done. But funny thing I discovered. There is a remote app for denon on ipad and iphone. I thought I just for fun should try it with my Mcintosh. Guess what? Worked like a charm. It even recognises features on the Mcintosh that Denon don't have. You can do absolutely everything with it. Highly recommended. It's called "deremote" and is available for both Ipad and Iphone. A must have.

I could only find how to turn off the display. Not the entire frontpanel lights.
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post #295 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancoh View Post

That was my first impressions after only a couple of hours. Now I have more thouroghly set it up. And I must say i'm very pleased.

Yes the web-interface is good. Also exactly the same as on denon. It's not super, but get's the job done. But funny thing I discovered. There is a remote app for denon on ipad and iphone. I thought I just for fun should try it with my Mcintosh. Guess what? Worked like a charm. It even recognises features on the Mcintosh that Denon don't have. You can do absolutely everything with it. Highly recommended. It's called "deremote" and is available for both Ipad and Iphone. A must have.

I could only find how to turn off the display. Not the entire frontpanel lights.

Thanks for the tip on the app.

I'm not sure what the function is called or where it's located, but my front panel does go dim. It was a setting I selected.
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post #296 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

I don't have mine hooked up through the web browser...is everything there also in the normal menus?

I'm not sure. They're similar, though I feel that the web browser offers additional feedback about the 121.
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post #297 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 06:32 PM
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Anyone know if the 121 passes through 4k video?
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post #298 of 651 Old 04-13-2012, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancoh View Post

That was my first impressions after only a couple of hours. Now I have more thouroghly set it up. And I must say i'm very pleased.

Yes the web-interface is good. Also exactly the same as on denon. It's not super, but get's the job done. But funny thing I discovered. There is a remote app for denon on ipad and iphone. I thought I just for fun should try it with my Mcintosh. Guess what? Worked like a charm. It even recognises features on the Mcintosh that Denon don't have. You can do absolutely everything with it. Highly recommended. It's called "deremote" and is available for both Ipad and Iphone. A must have.

I could only find how to turn off the display. Not the entire frontpanel lights.


You won't be able to turn off the Mcintosh or control labels.

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post #299 of 651 Old 04-14-2012, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancoh View Post

That was my first impressions after only a couple of hours. Now I have more thouroghly set it up. And I must say i'm very pleased.

Yes the web-interface is good. Also exactly the same as on denon. It's not super, but get's the job done. But funny thing I discovered. There is a remote app for denon on ipad and iphone. I thought I just for fun should try it with my Mcintosh. Guess what? Worked like a charm. It even recognises features on the Mcintosh that Denon don't have. You can do absolutely everything with it. Highly recommended. It's called "deremote" and is available for both Ipad and Iphone. A must have.

I could only find how to turn off the display. Not the entire frontpanel lights.

Don't want to derail the topic but what app and what features, Since its clearly using the denon serial protocol (over tcp/ip) i am interested in knowing for possible changes to the denon avp hardware upgrade we just got.

Personally i think its good they are loaning parts within the D&M group and not waisting money redoing things that don't have any real gains.

Daniel.

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post #300 of 651 Old 04-14-2012, 02:11 AM
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Don't want to derail the topic but what app and what features, Since its clearly using the denon serial protocol (over tcp/ip) i am interested in knowing for possible changes to the denon avp hardware upgrade we just got.

Personally i think its good they are loaning parts within the D&M group and not waisting money redoing things that don't have any real gains.

Daniel.

Deremote. An app for ipad and iphone.
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