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Old 12-29-2011, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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As some of you may have seen I started a build thread recently. Since now is the best time to future proof, is there any value in setting up a 9 or 11. 1 system?

Does anyone have this setup and notice a difference? Some peopel Ive spoken with done even see the value in 7.1 much less more. I could add more front speakers either wide or high but will it make the experience any better?
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

As some of you may have seen I started a build thread recently. Since now is the best time to future proof, is there any value in setting up a 9 or 11. 1 system?

Does anyone have this setup and notice a difference? Some peopel Ive spoken with done even see the value in 7.1 much less more. I could add more front speakers either wide or high but will it make the experience any better?

for me yes. Currently have 9.2, if my environment could support wides I'd move in that direction. You could always go audition the desired setup and decide if the channels are worth it.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:42 PM
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For me, I've always used 7.1 setups. But I've done so due to the fact that my HT's have always been so spacious. The bigger the area around your seating area, the more speakers you'd need (I would think at least) to help fill all that space with sound. If you're in a tiny 12x12 room. 5.1 should be plenty. But in my HT it's around 30x30 with open areas to other parts of my home. I've tried 5.1 and 7.1 in this room, and I'll stick with 7.1 all the way.

Also you need to keep in mind not only space, but placement limitations as well. You don't want to just have a speaker randomly thrown into a certain area, if it's not going to be within reasonable distance of where it should be properly placed.

For me, I plan on upgrading my AVR this year once I see what the new 2012 models have to offer. I'm planning on making the move to a 9 channel set up to try out what having heights can add to the equation. I have 3 spare channels on my external amps for this. Also in my ceiling I am able to get access up above for the wiring and I can ideally place the heights where they need to be, so that I can get the most optimal effect out of them.

I've wondered about how advantageous having wides are. I mean after all, if you're watching a movie, it's common to hear sounds to the rear, to the sides, and up above to an extent, but how often would you hear sounds from way over to your right side, or waaaaaaaay over to your left?

But if I had that option, I could definitely see myself trying out wides just for fun. It's just that my right wall is not far enough away for this to be an option.

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Old 12-29-2011, 03:46 PM
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Yep, I went from 7.1 to 9.1 (adding Front Wides) and it is much more immersive and impressive change, both musically (DSX wide) and in movies (PLiiz); than the move from 5.1 to 7.1 was. I highly recommend it.
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

I could add more front speakers either wide or high but will it make the experience any better?

If done right, adding speakers does make it more immersive (the ultimate goal of a HT setup.) However, you need to make sure the room layout allows for it, as well as budget.

If you can do 9.1 or 11.1 the right way, great, but it's better IMO to do a 5.1 or a 7.1 the right way than a lousy 9.1 setup. Goes for all levels of setups.

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Old 12-29-2011, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

As some of you may have seen I started a build thread recently. Since now is the best time to future proof, is there any value in setting up a 9 or 11. 1 system?

Future proofing also involves placing your (current installation) 7.1 speakers 'correctly' just in case you do decide on an upgrade to a 'higher speaker count' configuration sometime in the future. Even if you only ever anticipate installing a very limited subset of speakers from the Hamasaki 22.2 channel surround configuration, (mentally) overlaying that system's 22 satellite speakers on your room layout can be a good way to see where you might want 'to leave space' for future, additional height|wide speakers...?!

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Old 01-03-2012, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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ok so ive done some more reading about this and I can do height but not wides most likely. I also read wides are more important.

My theater is 14x17. I read on Audesseys page that they want a 45 degree angle for your left and right and 60 degrees for the wides.

Doing the math that means my normal speakers need to be 9 feet to the left and right of my room....my room is only 14 feet wide. I didnt realize speakers shoudl be spaced so far apart.

I thought the intent of having an accoustically transparent screen was to have all three behind the screen. is it just for the center?
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

ok so ive done some more reading about this and I can do height but not wides most likely. I also read wides are more important.

My theater is 14x17. I read on Audesseys page that they want a 45 degree angle for your left and right and 60 degrees for the wides.

Doing the math that means my normal speakers need to be 9 feet to the left and right of my room....my room is only 14 feet wide. I didnt realize speakers shoudl be spaced so far apart.

I thought the intent of having an accoustically transparent screen was to have all three behind the screen. is it just for the center?

wait a minute, what am i missing? I also read you shouldnt have your speakers more than 12 feet apart because the sound seperates but that doesnt fit into the speaker angle guidelines?
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

wait a minute, what am i missing? I also read you shouldnt have your speakers more than 12 feet apart because the sound seperates but that doesnt fit into the speaker angle guidelines?

nevermind its not more then 12 inches apart vertically... my memory was off. But still gives me the problem of not being able to go wide enough
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

ok so ive done some more reading about this and I can do height but not wides most likely. I also read wides are more important.

My theater is 14x17. I read on Audesseys page that they want a 45 degree angle for your left and right and 60 degrees for the wides.

Doing the math that means my normal speakers need to be 9 feet to the left and right of my room....my room is only 14 feet wide. I didnt realize speakers shoudl be spaced so far apart.

I thought the intent of having an accoustically transparent screen was to have all three behind the screen. is it just for the center?

It is a 30 degree optimal angle for front left and right, not 45 degrees (which is for the heights). Just put them as wide as you can behind your screen.

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Old 01-03-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

nevermind its not more then 12 inches apart vertically... my memory was off. But still gives me the problem of not being able to go wide enough

Good comments above by Brandon and yadfgp and I concur. Of course you need Audyessy DSX or Dolby PLIIZ to take advantage. I am currently using the DTS Neo:X format that is supported by my Integra DHC 80.3 SSP with good results.

Like you, I do not have room for wides and went with Heights in my 9.2 setup. The heights add height () to the front sound stage that is noticeable. IMO, more noticeable than the surround backs and if it were one or the other I would choose Height speakers. That said, I watched the first (Downey Jr) Sherlock Holmes over the weekend and that film had some of the best surround effects I have ever heard. Both the SB's and Heights were very active in that film and I am wondering if the Neo:X is responsible as I do not remember the film sounding that good in my first viewing using Audyssey DSX as the default format.

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Old 01-03-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Good comments above by Brandon and yadfgp and I concur. Of course you need Audyessy DSX or Dolby PLIIZ to take advantage. I am currently using the DTS Neo:X format that is supported by my Integra DHC 80.3 SSP with good results.

Like you, I do not have room for wides and went with Heights in my 9.2 setup. The heights add height () to the front sound stage that is noticeable. IMO, more noticeable than the surround backs and if it were one or the other I would choose Height speakers. That said, I watched the first (Downey Jr) Sherlock Holmes over the weekend and that film had some of the best surround effects I have ever heard. Both the SB's and Heights were very active in that film and I am wondering if the Neo:X is responsible as I do not remember the film sounding that good in my first viewing using Audyssey DSX as the default format.

Are the front angled down?

Im only doing this theater once so the extra couple hundred in speakers now im not worried about I just dont want to deal with it for years to come! Ill also get a receiver with teh audessy support. Probably one of the high end Denons.

As a side note, Sherlock Holmes is one of my favorite movies because of the sound and video make a great experience. I havent seen 2 yet but I already decided thats the first movie to be played in the new theater!
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Good comments above by Brandon and yadfgp and I concur. Of course you need Audyessy DSX or Dolby PLIIZ to take advantage. I am currently using the DTS Neo:X format that is supported by my Integra DHC 80.3 SSP with good results.

Like you, I do not have room for wides and went with Heights in my 9.2 setup. The heights add height () to the front sound stage that is noticeable. IMO, more noticeable than the surround backs and if it were one or the other I would choose Height speakers. That said, I watched the first (Downey Jr) Sherlock Holmes over the weekend and that film had some of the best surround effects I have ever heard. Both the SB's and Heights were very active in that film and I am wondering if the Neo:X is responsible as I do not remember the film sounding that good in my first viewing using Audyssey DSX as the default format.

wait a second, what if I did wides at 60 degree but they were on the L and R walls? I can get the degrees by moving them down the wall I just wont have them at the same distance away from me as the L and R, they will be closer?

Ill do some math now to see
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

wait a second, what if I did wides at 60 degree but they were on the L and R walls? I can get the degrees by moving them down the wall I just wont have them at the same distance away from me as the L and R, they will be closer?

Ill do some math now to see

Assuming I understand your question, yes Wides can be toed in on the Left and Right Walls. Your speaker distance settings will take care of the fact that they may be closer.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Assuming I understand your question, yes Wides can be toed in on the Left and Right Walls. Your speaker distance settings will take care of the fact that they may be closer.

yup thats what I was saying.

And I did the math. it would put them 5 feet up the wall. Which makes them about 4 feet from me. I knew the receiver would calibrate but not sure if that was too close.
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:53 PM
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Definitely agree with the above statements that it's best to have a large enough room for additional speakers to work (creating enough separation is important). I have front heights at the bare minimum 1m above my front L/R, as recommended by the Dolby guidelines, and the additional surround effect is rather subtle.
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:01 PM
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You can also put the heights on the ceiling and further into the room to get a better angle to the listening position and to get better separation from the mains, especially if you only have one row of seating. Chris at Audyssey says the reason they recommend placement on the front wall is just for better coverage for multiple rows of seating.
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

You can also put the heights on the ceiling and further into the room to get a better angle to the listening position and to get better separation from the mains, especially if you only have one row of seating. Chris at Audyssey says the reason they recommend placement on the front wall is just for better coverage for multiple rows of seating.

Is Chris at Audyssey someone I can speak with or did you just happen to be speaking with him through other venues?

Ill have two rows of seating but my design is essentially focused on the front row. Im making everything ideal for MY theater experience. The rest of the seating is for guests lol. As it is I had to make the rear row be movie seats so i can position my front row where i want it.
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

You can also put the heights on the ceiling and further into the room to get a better angle to the listening position and to get better separation from the mains, especially if you only have one row of seating. Chris at Audyssey says the reason they recommend placement on the front wall is just for better coverage for multiple rows of seating.

And Im using SVSound speakers so they do not make an in ceiling. I could try and match it. I can probably get enough height to put it in the top corners of the room
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Old 01-03-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

My theater is 14x17. I read on Audesseys page that they want a 45 degree angle for your left and right and 60 degrees for the wides.

You're micing up full- and half-angles.

To be consistent, it's +/-22 1/2 for L/R and +/-60 for wides.

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Old 01-03-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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You're micing up full- and half-angles.

To be consistent, it's +/-22 1/2 for L/R and +/-60 for wides.

Are you sure? The link above to the audssey page has 30 for L, R, 45 for LH RH and 60 for wides
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Old 01-03-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

As some of you may have seen I started a build thread recently. Since now is the best time to future proof, is there any value in setting up a 9 or 11. 1 system?

Does anyone have this setup and notice a difference? Some peopel Ive spoken with done even see the value in 7.1 much less more. I could add more front speakers either wide or high but will it make the experience any better?

I can't comment on the above users perception on improved sound, but just so that we're all on the same page >90% of all theatrical/episodic content (i.e. not music) is only mixed in 5.1; the remaining subset only go up to 7.1.

As such, while we may perceive improved immersion, it is wholly artificial from the reference in the mixing stage. Now whether that "invented" sound is in line with what the creatives would have desired had they mixed that way is anyone's guess.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES View Post

Is Chris at Audyssey someone I can speak with or did you just happen to be speaking with him through other venues?

Ill have two rows of seating but my design is essentially focused on the front row. Im making everything ideal for MY theater experience. The rest of the seating is for guests lol. As it is I had to make the rear row be movie seats so i can position my front row where i want it.



Chris Kyriakakis is one of the founders of Audyssey. He answers questions on their website and also posts here on avs.

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/1575...eight-speakers this is on topic for you

http://ask.audyssey.com/anonymous_requests/new you can submit a question here

http://ask.audyssey.com/forums all answered questions
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

For me, I've always used 7.1 setups. But I've done so due to the fact that my HT's have always been so spacious. The bigger the area around your seating area, the more speakers you'd need (I would think at least) to help fill all that space with sound. If you're in a tiny 12x12 room. 5.1 should be plenty.

I don't see what room size has to do with it. Most IMAX theatres (especially the film based ones) are huge, but only use 2 surround speakers (in the back corners of the auditorium). 7.1 can work in a 12x12 room, as long as the listening area is a few feet from the back wall, thereby providing adequate separation between the side and rear speakers.
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I can't comment on the above users perception on improved sound, but just so that we're all on the same page >90% of all theatrical/episodic content (i.e. not music) is only mixed in 5.1; the remaining subset only go up to 7.1.

As such, while we may perceive improved immersion, it is wholly artificial from the reference in the mixing stage. Now whether that "invented" sound is in line with what the creatives would have desired had they mixed that way is anyone's guess.

By that logic, watching a standard def DVD on a HD display means "invented" picture content. The number of source pixels have no bearing on the number of display pixels.

Likewise, the number of discrete audio channels in the source material has little to do with the number of speaker used for playback. Consumer 7-channel pre-pros have been around since 1986; discrete 7.1 content showed up in 2006 (20 years later).

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Old 01-03-2012, 11:15 PM
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In terms of "future proofing" and going beyond the typical 7.1 set-up...

Discrete channels for the wides and the heights will probably follow the typical path experienced by the majority of surround sound modes. The ability to "decode" these signals proceeds the actual recorded media by a number of years, sometimes decades. (Look how long it was before 7 channels were actually recorded in an audio track for a movie, when most but the most basic of AVR's have had this ability for years now.)

When I look into my crystal ball, I see height channels taking precidence over wides when it comes to future upgrade paths of surround modes... this is of course, just my humble opinion, but it seems logical to me that this is where any further expansion in recording will be made. I have heard/read that the heights may actually expand to 6 channels, coinciding with the fronts, surrounds and the rears. But there are also new sound processing technologies that do threaten that thinking. SRS Labs and the "multi-dimensional audio" format they are working on for their "CircleCinema 3D" shows significant progress in creating a 3 dimensional sound field with only 2 speakers

Don't want to turn this towards a "speaker manufacturers trying to sell more speakers" arguement, or insult anyone who feels "5.1 is sufficient, and anything over that is over kill"... just saying there are many considerations when looking to "future proof" with any degree of certainty.

To be honest, I must admit I do have an 11.2 speaker set-up, but my AVR only has 7 channels of amplification, so I have to decide if I want to hear the rears, the wides or the heights.... and I'd love to have them all pumping out the soundtracks!
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

I have heard/read that the heights may actually expand to 6 channels, coinciding with the fronts, surrounds and the rears.

Yup, it's owned by Barco (the projector people), called Auro-3D, and capable of 13.1 channels (7.1 plus up to 6 heights).

The first film to use the format theatrically will be Lucasfilm's 'Red Tails', about the Tuskegee Airmen, which will be released in 11.1 channels in a few test theatres on Jan 20th (just a couple weeks away).

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Old 01-04-2012, 12:41 AM
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Yup, it's owned by Barco (the projector people), called Auro-3D, and capable of 13.1 channels (7.1 plus up to 6 heights).

If I have it figured out correctly...

  • Auro-3D 13.1(7) is '7.1 standard' plus 7 heights, and
  • Auro-3D 13.1(6) is '6.1 standard' plus 7 heights (graphic below)

 

 

Plus we should perhaps also keep in mind that the some|many of the experimental 7.1 downmix configurations from the (full) 22.2 channel audio planned for NHK's future SHV optical disk|IP|OTA|cable tv format retain at least one of the (front) lower layer speakers...!?

 

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Old 01-04-2012, 12:57 AM
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Auro-3D 13.1(7) is '7.1 standard' plus 7 heights

Doesn't that add up to 14.1?

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Old 01-04-2012, 01:15 AM
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Doesn't that add up to 14.1?

From the Auro-3D Whitepaper...
Quote:


The Auro-3D speaker layout 12.1 up till 13.1 is based on the 6.1 or 7.1 Standard
  • 12.1 Auro-3D = 11.1 Auro-3D + Rear Center (6.1)
  • 13.1 Auro-3D = 12.1 Auro-3D + Height Rear Center


I'm guessing the idea was that each of the six peripheral upper layer speakers was intended to be directly over a corresponding middle layer speaker, and that supporting an upconversion of an existing 7.1 theatrical environment necessitated dealing with a LR|RR surround speaker pair . . . which now both occupy what was intended to be the 'speaker 12' position...?!

[The is all obviously a problem caused by the use of conflicting Metric|Imperial measurements . . . or possibly a holdover consequence of Y2K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ]

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Old 01-04-2012, 02:01 AM
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Barco uses a Datasat AP20 with an additional module to deliver Auro-3D (the 'AP24') in their cinema set up. It will be interesting to see whether Barco makes it available to the consumer market.
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