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post #1 of 15 Old 12-29-2011, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope some of you geniuses can help me....

I just purchased 5 KEF q500's and a Dennon 3312ci. My initial understanding is that the AYDYSSEY would essentially process this sound to these 5 channels and it was just going to be the greatest thing ever put together. Then as I started talking to some friends who knew their stuff basically were telling me that this was just bogus and i should have just stuck to maybe 2 q900's for a 2 channel set up.... I guess what I am asking is, if you have 5 q500's and a 3312ci and some KIMBER cable and just spent a ton of money what would you do... I appreciate the help like you wouldn't imagine.
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post #2 of 15 Old 12-29-2011, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rchasea View Post

I guess what I am asking is, if you have 5 q500's and a 3312ci and some KIMBER cable and just spent a ton of money what would you do... I appreciate the help like you wouldn't imagine.

Use the speakers, or maybe return two of the Q500's (the surround ones) for smaller models.

Take back the silly wires, though. You got hosed on that one. Don't buy wires from an audio salon. Buy them from a place like Home Depot.

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post #3 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rchasea View Post

I hope some of you geniuses can help me....

I just purchased 5 KEF q500's and a Dennon 3312ci. My initial understanding is that the AYDYSSEY would essentially process this sound to these 5 channels and it was just going to be the greatest thing ever put together. Then as I started talking to some friends who knew their stuff basically were telling me that this was just bogus and i should have just stuck to maybe 2 q900's for a 2 channel set up.... I guess what I am asking is, if you have 5 q500's and a 3312ci and some KIMBER cable and just spent a ton of money what would you do... I appreciate the help like you wouldn't imagine.



Return 3 Q500 replace those with Q900 for the front sound stage add 2 15 inch SVS Subs and return the speaker wire and upgrade the AMP to an Onkyo 3009 5009 and enjoy the amazing audio.

You asked what I would do.... it's your money! Your friends that know their stuff... will bow.
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post #4 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 05:43 AM
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The Denon AVR will not be able to drive all floor standers properly. It won't even do justice to the Q500 in stereo mode either. What you want is two Q900 and a Q600c for LCR. I am assuming you want to build a home theatre setup. So you want to match the LCR with the same brand and same bracket of speakers for similar sonic performance. The surrounds can be anything you want them to be, possible Q300 or Q100.

I'd suggest AV separates if you want the best performance. Try looking at separates like the Marantz MM7055+AV7005 or even some EMOTIVA amps. I'm not familiar with KIMBER cables, but your speaker cables to the LCR should be at least 14 gauge for floor standers. I know some folks believe that speaker cables does not matter, but in my experience, quality cable can really make a difference as well as clean filtered power (like Panamax). I used to think they are gimmicks and waste of money until I experienced THE difference.

Those KEFs Q series speakers are good stuff for the money.
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post #5 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 06:42 AM
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There's nothing wrong with 5 q500. I think it will sound awesome. The only issue is having room for the center channel. Most people have a TV on a stand in the middle and a q500 will kind of get in the way.

I have a pair of xq30's and a xq50c and they're awesome sounding. I like the xq series better than the Q. Of course it costs more. KEF has a new R series that's better than the xq series. Some say it's almost as good as the reference series.

Generally speaking, you don't need expensive speaker wire. Unless your runs are extremely long, any 14 gauge speaker wire will do. 16 gauge will do for runs that are 10' or less.

You need to get a subwoofer with Kef's. They're great at higher frequencies but aren't good at bass.
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post #6 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 07:03 AM
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+1

The 3312CI shouldn't have any problems with your (5) speakers, however, I would agree that a better center speaker selection could be made (unless you have room to place it standing upright under the TV or is setup on the other side of a pass through projection screen). And although the tower as surrounds is overkill in normal surround mode if you prefer all channel stereo at times, they will sound very nice. You don't mention whether you've run Audyssey yet ... only that your friends put it down. Let Audyssey do it's thing so you can make up your own mind as to what you want to do ... it's your setup and your ears ... you decide.

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post #7 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

The Denon AVR will not be able to drive all floor standers properly. It won't even do justice to the Q500 in stereo mode either.

Highly doubtful. First, "floorstanders" tend to be more efficient than bookshelves, and thus easier to drive. Second, KEF designs for reasonably high and reasonably constant impedance, so their speakers are easy to drive. \\

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Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

What you want is two Q900 and a Q600c for LCR.

That would be a considerably lower-fidelity setup than the proper setup, which is identical front stage speakers, at the same height, in the same orientation.

Anything less than that is, well, less.

The "dedicated center" is a marketing job that does well with the tin-earred, but doesn't really fly for those who care about fidelity in audio reproduction.

That said, if returning the con job wires would allow an upgrade for all three front speakers to larger Q-Series, that may be an advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

I'd suggest AV separates if you want the best performance.

The reason AVR's dominate the market is that in the current day separates are only a material improvement for four small subsets of people:

(1) Those with mains speakers that drop to extremely low-impedances, such as the old Apogee ribbons, some older Thiels, and many electrostatic panels (very low impedance in the top octave).
(2) Those with mains that are exceptionally inefficient mains, say ≤82dB/W/m, and very large spaces to fill.
(3) Those who use either active speakers (e.g. most pro monitors) or speakers with external active crossovers (e.g. Linkwitz Orion and Pluto), and don't want dangling amps adding to their electrical bills. (These people could use AVR's if they had pre-out/main-in jacks. But sadly that seems to no longer be an included feature.)
(4) Those with installed setups that have several large amplifiers, who want neither to remove them nor to rewire things to run off the AVR.

For everyone else, separates are inefficient and pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 3312CI shouldn't have any problems with your (5) speakers, however, I would agree that a better center speaker selection could be made

How can anything be "better" than a properly coherent front stage? One may as well run right and left speakers that are different from one another, too.

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post #8 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 05:02 PM
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^^
If you're going to quote someone's post ... do it justice by quoting the whole sentence rather than just a partial sentence which then present the full intention.

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post #9 of 15 Old 12-30-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Highly doubtful. First, "floorstanders" tend to be more efficient than bookshelves, and thus easier to drive. Second, KEF designs for reasonably high and reasonably constant impedance, so their speakers are easy to drive. \\



That would be a considerably lower-fidelity setup than the proper setup, which is identical front stage speakers, at the same height, in the same orientation.

Anything less than that is, well, less.

The "dedicated center" is a marketing job that does well with the tin-earred, but doesn't really fly for those who care about fidelity in audio reproduction.

That said, if returning the con job wires would allow an upgrade for all three front speakers to larger Q-Series, that may be an advantage.



The reason AVR's dominate the market is that in the current day separates are only a material improvement for four small subsets of people:

(1) Those with mains speakers that drop to extremely low-impedances, such as the old Apogee ribbons, some older Thiels, and many electrostatic panels (very low impedance in the top octave).
(2) Those with mains that are exceptionally inefficient mains, say ≤82dB/W/m, and very large spaces to fill.
(3) Those who use either active speakers (e.g. most pro monitors) or speakers with external active crossovers (e.g. Linkwitz Orion and Pluto), and don't want dangling amps adding to their electrical bills. (These people could use AVR's if they had pre-out/main-in jacks. But sadly that seems to no longer be an included feature.)
(4) Those with installed setups that have several large amplifiers, who want neither to remove them nor to rewire things to run off the AVR.

For everyone else, separates are inefficient and pointless.



How can anything be "better" than a properly coherent front stage? One may as well run right and left speakers that are different from one another, too.

It was a suggestion. The OP asks what I would do. Based on his/her comment, it appears space and money was not really the concern, but to experience a very good audio system.

Separates are for those who want to be able to pick their own DSP, DAC, preamplifier stage, and amp. They also provide the ability to swap/replace units that warrants an upgrade/replacement. Then again, maybe some people are perfectly happy with the components a given manufacturer use in their AVR. But for the rest of us, there's separates.

You are wrong about floorstanders being "easier" to drive than bookshelf because they are "more" efficient. Any 2 1/2 way or 3 way floor speakers will need a good amount of juice to PROPERLY open them up. True, they can get "loud" running off the AVR, but they will not give you the bling that you paid for (imaging, soundstage, and bass and midrange response). Run 100-150 continuous watts into those Q900 and you probably won't even need a subwoofer unless you really want to to reach below 35Hz. Then again, I'm coming from a music perspective and not home theatre - where 30-50 watts per channel is sufficient for most. Just saying.
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post #10 of 15 Old 12-31-2011, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I picked up a sheerwood newcastle a-965 back in the day that i was going to use to power the speakers... So I think i have that covered also as it is laid out right now it would be a q500 as a center channel at 0 degrees two q500's at 30 degrees and two at 60 degrees so they would all be essentially right in front of you.... I would get the bigger q700 or 900 but the q500 sits right below my samsung and then the other 4 to the left and right just match it and it looks awesome. Now for the sound part, I know I have a lot of equipment I'm just trying to set it all up. Someone mentioned a panamax and I actually bought one of their best units to clean all the power to my amps and equipment etc... I appreciate all the help... If this makes anymore sense with my description please let me know if you guys have any other ideas or suggestions. Also seeing that I have a dedicated amp should i return the dennon for anything else as far as a receiver is concerned... I need HDMI switching between xbox, DirecTV, Apple TV, PS3, blue ray etc.... so I am basically dropping all this money on a HDMI switcher and AYDYSSEY... I am going to take back the wire and get some standard kimber cable in return instead of their high end BS... Im sure its nice and works but probably won't notice any change with this setup.. maybe down the road in dream land when I have some Tidals and money to blow on all ends...
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post #11 of 15 Old 12-31-2011, 04:54 AM
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I would keep the denon and use it a pre to the newcastle. the newcastle will provide plenty of power.

I only thing I would do is add a subwoofer. The woofers in the 500 are small. cranking up the volume won't lower the frequency response, it will just make the same frequencies louder.

I don't know what your budget is, but you can get a good bang for your buck by getting a middle of the line hsu for around $600-$700 including shipping.
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post #12 of 15 Old 12-31-2011, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

It was a suggestion. The OP asks what I would do. Based on his/her comment, it appears space and money was not really the concern, but to experience a very good audio system.

Separates are for those who want to be able to pick their own DSP, DAC, preamplifier stage, and amp. They also provide the ability to swap/replace units that warrants an upgrade/replacement. Then again, maybe some people are perfectly happy with the components a given manufacturer use in their AVR. But for the rest of us, there's separates.

You are wrong about floorstanders being "easier" to drive than bookshelf because they are "more" efficient. Any 2 1/2 way or 3 way floor speakers will need a good amount of juice to PROPERLY open them up. True, they can get "loud" running off the AVR, but they will not give you the bling that you paid for (imaging, soundstage, and bass and midrange response). Run 100-150 continuous watts into those Q900 and you probably won't even need a subwoofer unless you really want to to reach below 35Hz. Then again, I'm coming from a music perspective and not home theatre - where 30-50 watts per channel is sufficient for most. Just saying.

he's not wrong...

the rest of what you post is simply mythology...

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post #13 of 15 Old 12-31-2011, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
If you're going to quote someone's post ... do it justice by quoting the whole sentence rather than just a partial sentence which then present the full intention.

Not really. If one cares about fidelity of reproduction, one will move the video crap such that it gets out of the way of the sound, and one can use the only high-fidelity approach to front speakers: identical speakers, at identical elevations, in identical orientations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

Separates are for those who want to be able to pick their own DSP, DAC, preamplifier stage, and amp.

To what end? They're all commodity parts at this point, within the limitations I discussed above. Except that with "separates" one is far more likely to have noise/interference than with a modern integrated box.

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Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

You are wrong about floorstanders being "easier" to drive than bookshelf because they are "more" efficient.

Please learn some basic physics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubbo07 View Post

Run 100-150 continuous watts into those Q900 and you probably won't even need a subwoofer unless you really want to to reach below 35Hz. Then again, I'm coming from a music perspective and not home theatre - where 30-50 watts per channel is sufficient for most. Just saying.

Again, please learn some basic physics.

The physics, in this case, are those of bass wave propagation in a small room. In the modal region (approx 50-150Hz in a typical domestic living room) the room has far more of an impact on the system than the loudspeakers do, assuming they have the volume displacement to excite the modes, at least. The only way to "fix" the room is to use multiple subwoofers distributed around the room, blended into a decent pair of mains.

Based on your comments, one must assume you've never actually heard a high-fidelity audio system. You have, perhaps, heard expensive audio systems that probably had 20dB swings in the modal region.

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Originally Posted by rchasea View Post

So I think i have that covered also as it is laid out right now it would be a q500 as a center channel at 0 degrees two q500's at 30 degrees and two at 60 degrees so they would all be essentially right in front of you....

That sounds unnecessary. If you're going for a front wide setup, you should probably spread them out more.

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post #14 of 15 Old Today, 03:31 PM
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So are you suggesting to not use a center channel speaker and replace it with an additional sub instead? But if the crossover is set to 80hz which is usually the default in most home theater receivers then the sub will only add to the bass so then for a 5 channel setup what would you use instead a bookshelf speaker or another floor standing model?

And if it were to be another floor stander what great benefit would you derive from it if the cut off was already setup at 80 and audyssey had already adjusted and configured your floor standers as a small set of speakers unless of course you could create a dual zone in which case would it not make more sense to use bookshelf to drive your home theater and use the floor standers for mozart, vivaldi and Kanye :)
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post #15 of 15 Old Today, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by assimov View Post
So are you suggesting to not use a center channel speaker and replace it with an additional sub instead? But if the crossover is set to 80hz which is usually the default in most home theater receivers then the sub will only add to the bass so then for a 5 channel setup what would you use instead a bookshelf speaker or another floor standing model?

And if it were to be another floor stander what great benefit would you derive from it if the cut off was already setup at 80 and audyssey had already adjusted and configured your floor standers as a small set of speakers unless of course you could create a dual zone in which case would it not make more sense to use bookshelf to drive your home theater and use the floor standers for mozart, vivaldi and Kanye
Resurrecting an almost 5 year old thread to contribute the above: Priceless.

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