Is DTS Neo:X that good - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 53 Old 01-04-2012, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I am thinking about buying a Onkyo 1009 for the DTS Neo:X.
I would like to run front high & wides at the same time. Just wondering if DTS Neo:X is that good & worth it?
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post #2 of 53 Old 01-05-2012, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowop View Post

I would like to run front high & wides at the same time.

There are two processing modes that allow you to have heights and wides at the same time: Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X. But they operate very differently.

DSX generates early reflections for the height and wide speakers that weren't in the original soundtrack, to give the impression of listening in a larger room. Neo:X extracts ambient information from the soundtrack itself to feed its height and wide speakers. Having heard both, I prefer Neo:X. YMMV.

Also, while the processing modes are capable of having heights and wides simultaneously, how they are implemented in receivers can vary. Make sure the Onkyo 1009 you are considering can do all 9 channels (5.1 + heights + wides) at the same time.

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post #3 of 53 Old 01-05-2012, 01:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. The little that I have read does seem to indicate that Neo:X does sound better than DSX.
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post #4 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowop View Post

Thank you. The little that I have read does seem to indicate that Neo:X does sound better than DSX.

Last night I seen some weird anomalies with NEO X. For example when playing BF3 (supposed to be DTS track however I think there is a glitch that forces DD) I noticed a couple instances when sound wasn't out putting correctly. For example, I was opening up a massive can of GET THE F*&^ BACK in Operation Metro with my 249... Extended Mags. Generally all you hear (over my Rambo cries of OOOOAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH and laughter as bodies hit the floor people are turning and screaming while they run, SAVE THE CHILDREN.. OH GOSH HE IS THERE.. WE'RE ALL GONNA DIEEEEEE as they trip over each other in the streets and subway as my 200 rounds of stopping power is shredding everything moving... sorry side track) the gun shots get a lot of love from the subs generally. In this case I was hearing my gun shots primarily through my Rear Back Surrounds and not through the subs. Later on it was fine. Thats never happened. Going to watch Rise Planet of the Apes tonight which is a DTS HD MA track.
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post #5 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 10:22 AM
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So if you're using DTS: NeoX, and you're playing a blu ray that is decoded say in Dolby Digital HD, that will work fine?

DTS: NeoX is capable of decoding whatever type of soundtrack is thrown at it and modifying that track to make it output up to as many as 11 channels of surround sound?

I'm new to learning about this sort of thing, and I'm just so used to watching movies on blu ray that are either decoded in DDHD, or DTSHD etc.

So if you're running an AVR that has DTS: NeoX, and you're setup for say the following... L,C,R,SR,SL,RR,LR and heights, you can just leave your AVR on the DTS:Neo X setting, and it will decode the material into your 9 channels as intended for that many channels? Irregardless of whether the soundtrack is DD, or DTS etc???????

Sorry for the long winding question!

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post #6 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

So if you're using DTS: NeoX, and you're playing a blu ray that is decoded say in Dolby Digital HD, that will work fine?

DTS: NeoX is capable of decoding whatever type of soundtrack is thrown at it and modifying that track to make it output up to as many as 11 channels of surround sound?

I'm new to learning about this sort of thing, and I'm just so used to watching movies on blu ray that are either decoded in DDHD, or DTSHD etc.

So if you're running an AVR that has DTS: NeoX, and you're setup for say the following... L,C,R,SR,SL,RR,LR and heights, you can just leave your AVR on the DTS:Neo X setting, and it will decode the material into your 9 channels as intended for that many channels? Irregardless of whether the soundtrack is DD, or DTS etc???????

Sorry for the long winding question!

I guess the gist of what I'm really wanting to know is, if you leave your AVR in DTS:Neo X mode, it will decode ALL DTS and ALL DD tracks just fine?

Same goes for DSX?

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post #7 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

I guess the gist of what I'm really wanting to know is, if you leave your AVR in DTS:Neo X mode, it will decode ALL DTS and ALL DD tracks just fine?

Same goes for DSX?

That is my understanding of both DSX and Neo...they will be applied no matter what is thrown at them (2.1, 5.1, 7.1).


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post #8 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 11:04 AM
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Me having only a 9.1 setup with heights, I like pliiz better overall. I find neo:x compared sounds like your in hole in the middle. While pliiz just washes you with sound.

Just my 2 cents
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post #9 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

I guess the gist of what I'm really wanting to know is, if you leave your AVR in DTS:Neo X mode, it will decode ALL DTS and ALL DD tracks just fine?

Neo:X is surround processing; it doesn't decode DTS or DD tracks. You can apply Neo:X processing to any soundtrack (DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, PCM, etc), any number of channels (from 2.0 to 7.1), and it will scale the audio to upto 11 speakers.
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Same goes for DSX?

DSX can't be applied directly to 2-channel stereo sources, only multi-channel sources. So, you first have to use surround processing (PLII or Neo) to expand a stereo source to multi-channel, then you can apply DSX to generate wides and heights.

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post #10 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

So if you're using DTS: NeoX, and you're playing a blu ray that is decoded say in Dolby Digital HD, that will work fine?

DTS: NeoX is capable of decoding whatever type of soundtrack is thrown at it and modifying that track to make it output up to as many as 11 channels of surround sound?

DTS Neo X doesn't do the decoding. The soundtrack is decoded from TrueHD, DTS-MA, whatever, by those specific decoding protocols, and then DTS Neo X is applied to the decoded track, be it 5.1, 7.1, etc.

Don't get hung up on the DTS name. It's the same principle as using ProLogicIIx or IIz on a DTS soundtrack, which I do all the time.

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post #11 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muad'dib View Post

Me having only a 9.1 setup with heights, I like pliiz better overall. I find neo:x compared sounds like your in hole in the middle. While pliiz just washes you with sound.

Just my 2 cents

This is kinda of how I remember DSX being as opposed to NEO:X. I am still getting familiar with my amp so I am going to do more science less ear preference testing tonight. Last night I really dug into the Neo:X but with a couple weird output instances I will play a round of BF3 with Neo and swap to DSX which was my favorite on my 3008.
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post #12 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 12:28 PM
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Thanks guys for your replies. They were all very helpful and informative.

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post #13 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I know I am not the brightest bulb in the room. I am getting the impression that is not worth it to upgrade just for the NEO:X.
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post #14 of 53 Old 01-06-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowop View Post

I know I am not the brightest bulb in the room. I am getting the impression that is not worth it to upgrade just for the NEO:X.

Well, if you're thinking of getting a new AVR anyways, it may be worth it to spend a little bit more just so you can have the ability to play movies with more than 7 channels of surround sound.

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post #15 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^
I agree, but if I could still get a great deal on a Denon 4311 I might take it instead of being limited to Onkyo or Integra for NEO:X
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post #16 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

DSX generates early reflections for the height and wide speakers that weren't in the original soundtrack, to give the impression of listening in a larger room. Neo:X extracts ambient information from the soundtrack itself to feed its height and wide speakers..

I think you might be wrong here, or have it backward. I seem to recall reading a quote from Chris on the Audyssey thread that nothing is synthesized or "generated" and that parts of the original signal are "steered" by fuzzy logic. To me it sounds more like how you describe Neo:X.
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post #17 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I seem to recall reading a quote from Chris on the Audyssey thread that nothing is synthesized or "generated" and that parts of the original signal are "steered" by fuzzy logic.

Here is a quote from Chris: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=28144
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I guess it all comes down to the definition of "adds". Yes, Audyssey DSX is adding content for the Wide and Height channels. This content is derived from the 5.1 mix and is sent to the Wide and Height speakers after time and frequency processing. Steering has particular connotations that are associated with 2-to-5 upmixing algorithms. In that sense, DSX doesn't do steering.

And here is a quote from A Practical Guide to Audyssey DSX: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2010/05...-audyssey-dsx/
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For years Audyssey has been talking about reducing the effect of unwanted sound reflections in the room with MultEQ. But with Audyssey DSX we are adding reflections? What's all this about? The key word is unwanted. Sound reflections from certain directions are desirable because they improve our perception of the soundstage. But, in our home listening room, these reflections rarely come from the optimal directions. As a result they degrade the playback quality and that's why MultEQ tries to minimize their effect.

But, what if we could recreate the desirable reflections? Then, we can really feel more immersed in the scene. The most important direction for these reflections is from the sides and that's what the Audyssey DSX Wide channels are designed to do. The algorithm looks at the content in real time and extracts from it the cues that we perceive from optimal side wall reflections. This information combines with the direct sound from the front and gives us an enhanced sense of soundstage width.

The second most important direction for reflections is the top of the stage. That's where the Audyssey DSX Height channels come in. The information from these channels helps enhance the sense of soundstage depth.

Adding and recreating "desirable reflections" from "the top of the stage"? What "stage" are they talking about? And why would I want outdoor scenes from 'Lawrence of Arabia' that take place in the open desert to sound like I'm hearing them on a stage?
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I think you might be wrong here, or have it backward.

If the early reflections coming from DSX wides and heights aren't generated, then those reflections should be present in the soundtrack itself. In every soundtrack. If you were to listen to a movie soundtrack via headphonse, would you still hear those reflections? Try it for yourself; it will give you a better idea of whether those reflections were originally in the soundtrack and merely steered to the wide and height speakers (like Neo:X does) OR synthesized by DSX for those speakers.

Sanjay
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post #18 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Try it for yourself; it will give you a better idea of whether those reflections were originally in the soundtrack and merely steered to the wide and height speakers (like Neo:X does) OR synthesized by DSX for those speakers.

Yeah, don't think so.
I've got no desire to add more speakers. Plus I don't have much use for expansion algorithms being a music first guy.
Here's the quote I was referring to and now that I re-read it it's a bit ambiguous, and closer to what you were suggesting;

"Just to get the semantics clear, when you say "synthesizes", do you mean DSX generates ambience (reverb, early reflections) or does DSX only extract ambience from the recording?"

It is none of the above. Certainly nothing to do with reverb. It does extract information from the recording, but not just ambience. Ambience is usually just the uncorrelated content in a stereo pair. DSX will extract whatever is needed at any given moment based on the content. It uses perceptual and acoustical rules to produce width and height information that when combined with the standard surround content will produce a wider, more enveloping soundstage.
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post #19 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 03:41 PM
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There is another option here also.A Yamaha AV with its own DSP Presence speaker technology which I believe was around long before AudessyDSX or Neo X were avaliable.But is it as good or maybe even Better?
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post #20 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Here's the quote I was referring to and now that I re-read it it's a bit ambiguous

Right, that was my question to Chris, only to discover that I wasn't going to get a clear answer. For the record, I have no problem with him not wanting to divulge the recipe for their secret sauce, especially when the only thing at stake was my curiosity. The way to hear what DSX is doing is to play back the same signal through two speakers, say left main and left wide, then switch back and forth between them to compare. Sharp clicks or drum whacks sounded a little smeared to me when processed into reflections.

By comparison, Neo:X extract correlated mono info from the front and side channels to feed their wide speakers. Similar process to extracting a centre channel from a stereo signal, except in this case the stereo pair is the main and surround channel. Sounds that would normally have phantom imaged between the front and side speakers are extracted and sent to a pair of speakers between the fronts and sides. Same directionality, just greater imaging stability (espectially for off-axis listeners). Same reason/benefits for extracting a centre channel.

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post #21 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ta-kid View Post

There is another option here also.A Yamaha AV with its own DSP Presence speaker technology which I believe was around long before AudessyDSX or Neo X were avaliable.But is it as good or maybe even Better?

Not a question of "better", since that is subjective, but a different goal. Yamaha DSP generates early reflections and reverb for room simulation. In a few cases, they actually go out and measure those characteristics at venues like the London Palladium or Roxy club here in Los Angeles, hence some modes having names like Palladium and Roxy. Sounds a little better than generic Hall and Stadium modes, if you like that sort of sound.

Surround processing can be divided into two basic groups: ambience generation and ambience extraction. Yamaha DSP is the former while DTS Neo:X and Dolby PLIIz fall into the latter category. They don't generate any reverberation or early reflections that weren't in the original signal. Instead, they extract sounds from the soundtrack and steer it to various speakers. As such, they aren't trying to simulate a larger space, but simply scale the number of channels in the source material to the number of speakers in your system. Like standard-def DVDs are scaled to your hi-def display.

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post #22 of 53 Old 01-07-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not a question of "better", since that is subjective, but a different goal. Yamaha DSP generates early reflections and reverb for room simulation. In a few cases, they actually go out and measure those characteristics at venues like the London Palladium or Roxy club here in Los Angeles, hence some modes having names like Palladium and Roxy. Sounds a little better than generic Hall and Stadium modes, if you like that sort of sound.

Surround processing can be divided into two basic groups: ambience generation and ambience extraction. Yamaha DSP is the former while DTS Neo:X and Dolby PLIIz fall into the latter category. They don't generate any reverberation or early reflections that weren't in the original signal. Instead, they extract sounds from the soundtrack and steer it to various speakers. As such, they aren't trying to simulate a larger space, but simply scale the number of channels in the source material to the number of speakers in your system. Like standard-def DVDs are scaled to your hi-def display.

That's an excellent explanation. Thanks.

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post #23 of 53 Old 01-08-2012, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I added a Onkyo 3009 to my stable yesterday.It was a open box at a dealer about 50 miles away from me. I could not resist the price. After I get it setup I will experiment with the different modes.
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post #24 of 53 Old 01-08-2012, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowop View Post

I added a Onkyo 3009 to my stable yesterday.It was a open box at a dealer about 50 miles away from me. I could not resist the price. After I get it setup I will experiment with the different modes.

Congrats! That'd be great if you did follow up on your impressions. Thanks.

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post #25 of 53 Old 01-08-2012, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I will give my opinion. First I have to try & block out the woman of the house chirping.Then I will set it up.
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post #26 of 53 Old 01-09-2012, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I set up the 3009 yesterday & I will say I am definetly impressed with running the front wides & highs at the same time.
As far as NEO:X it does sound good but I realize it is running 9.2. Actually I prefered DSX especially while watching the playoff games.
The 3009 does run hotter than the 709. 37c vs 28c average. I ordered a cooler from Amazon.

Also I think the X32 version of Audyssey makes a difference.
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post #27 of 53 Old 01-09-2012, 09:37 AM
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I guess this applies to DSX as well, but does anyone who has back surrounds and watches action/scifi/horror movies miss them when using either DTS/DSX height and width speakers?

I know the back surrounds with PLIIx aren't 'present' often, but when they are they really add to the immersed sensation when coordinated with side surround sound effects.

I would really like to wait to upgrade from my Onkyo 805 until they implement 11.1(2) simultaneous channels. Since I use an ext amp I don't care if the unit has the additonal amps for the speakers. I think now only the Denon 4311 has that capability but I prefer the Onkyo 'sound' over the Denon.
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post #28 of 53 Old 10-11-2012, 03:16 PM
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Of course I run into sdurani on yet another forum acting as though DSX can't possibly do what it says. I know the forum is dead but for anyone who reads this I would like to at least state why his assumptions are incorrect. I already tried to explain to him how a room could sound like a smaller room or larger in relation to the reflections being steered to the appropriate speakers. Sdurani believes the only way to make a room sound smaller is to make the reflected sound reach you before the direct sound. Of course I tried to explain to him that this is impossible. A reflection always takes more time to reach the listener than the direct sound because the direct sound is the one with the straight path. So it's the timing between the direct sound and reflected sound that your brain associates with spaciousness. So DSX is not just trying to make you feel like you're in a larger room. Its supposed to make you feel like your in a smaller, larger, similar size, or open room. He also acts as though this information is not present on the original recordings. I also explained to him that when a movie is filmed these reflections reach the mics because movies are not recorded in a dead room with acoustical treatments everywhere. It's this faint information that we can't hear ourselves that is getting steered to the appropriate speaker so that our brain now naturally realizes the correlation with space. Without this steering it would sound much more like a standard left and right speaker system loosing the sense of dimension. I understand sdurani has had a hard time accepting that this is possible and obviously I am bothered by his willingness to be a source of information for things he is not qualified for. Him telling me that making a room sound smaller than your own would take the reflection hitting you first was a big red flag. I suggest anyone interested in a 11 channel system look towards the upcoming Marantz AV8801. This will have DSX and NEO:X with 32/192 bit DAC's and XT32 so you can decide which is a better 11 channel environment yourself.
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post #29 of 53 Old 10-11-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Logan209 View Post

...Sdurani believes the only way to make a room sound smaller is to make the reflected sound reach you before the direct sound.

That makes no sense and is physically impossible, so I have no doubt that Sanjay did *not* say that.

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post #30 of 53 Old 10-11-2012, 05:59 PM
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I know which is why I was surprised because he speaks like he is intelligent. It was on the outlaw forum if you don't believe me though. I'm not trying to smear anyone's name for no reason.
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