Outlaw 7500 or Emotiva XPA5 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 01-10-2012, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm in the process of upgrading my theater. I have acquired an Onkyo 5508 and now need a 5 channel amp to go with it. I have been looking at the Outlaw 7500 and the Emotiva XPA5, but need some help to pull the trigger on one of them. Or should I be looking at something else. My budget is 2000. Any help is appreciated.
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post #2 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:29 AM
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I don't own nor have ever heard either unit, but my impression is Outlaws tend to be less problematic than Emotivas. They also cost more for a comparable feature set.
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post #3 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:34 AM
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I have three Emotiva amps, one with a loose RCA jack. I think you would probably will be satisfied with either. The Emo's haven't given me any trouble, apart from the bad RCA jack. I also use a 5508 and the amps are well matched.
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post #4 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 07:55 AM
 
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If it matters to you, the Outlaw models have a bigger power supply, more output devices per channel, and better specs. They cost more, but you are getting a more robust product.
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post #5 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 08:02 AM
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True.
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post #6 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 11:44 AM
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I have had them both with the same same speakers and while I think the outlaw was a better amp it was not enough better to justify the price difference to me. Speakers were 92db sensitve but if they had been of lower sensitivity or harder to drive then the outlaw may have been worth the extra cost. What kind of speakers will you be using?
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post #7 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 11:51 AM
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I suspect the difference is in the mud in the real world for most systems and listeners. I have participated in various amp studies, sighted and blind, over the years and the results always showed a wide range of systems sounded the same no matter the amp. Differences occured with nasty loads and at the extremes of components (e.g. Mark Levinson vs. a cheapie receiver, and even that was closer than many would care to admit with an average speaker). The exception is tube vs. transistor, which due to their significant differences are easier to identify at almost all price points (that is, it is easier to choose tube vs. transistor sound than tube vs. tube or SS vs. SS; IIRC, there was also more variation among tube designs).

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post #8 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 12:58 PM
 
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No one is suggesting that one amp will sound 'better' than the other in this thread. But knowing the sensitivity and Ohm rating of the speakers might be helpful when comparing things like power supplies and signal to noise ratios.

Another point of difference is that Emotiva products are all made in China, and the Outlaw amps are made in the USA if that is important to the thread starter.
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post #9 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

No one is suggesting that one amp will sound 'better' than the other in this thread. But knowing the sensitivity and Ohm rating of the speakers might be helpful when comparing things like power supplies and signal to noise ratios.

Another point of difference is that Emotiva products are all made in China, and the Outlaw amps are made in the USA if that is important to the thread starter.

When did Outlaw start manufacturing amps in the US? Where in the US are thy made?
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post #10 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:10 PM
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I believe Outlaw is made in China, just as Emo is.
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post #11 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:16 PM
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^^^

i believe that ati is the manufacturer for outlaw amps (but i could be misremembering that)... if so, made in usa (unless ati outsources oem production)...

of course, who know where all the actual bits and pieces come from...

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post #12 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:19 PM
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Outlaw amps are made by ATI in Califorinia except the monoblocks that are made in China I think. They have always been made by ATI.
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post #13 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:40 PM
 
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See now if you buy Outlaw you are putting Americans to work but if you buy an Emo you are putting a small Chinese child to work. Huge dilemma
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post #14 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 03:48 PM
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If your budget is around $2000 why not look into a Parasound Halo A52. John Curl has been designing some of the finest amps in audio since 1975 w/Levinson. His products are very reliable and will last for years. It will handle just about any speaker you hook it up to. Just a alternative to think about.
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post #15 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Lots of good info here. I purchased my speakers over 10 years ago. They are an ageing Sound Dynamics RTS Series. Specs are as follows.

Fronts
Speaker Type: 3-way
Response Bandwidth: 30 - 20000 Hz
Input Impedance: 8 Ohm
Recommended Amplifier Power: 15 - 250 Watt
Sensitivity: 93 dB

Center
1 x 1"(25mm) Dual Flared Dome
2 x 5-1/2" I.M. Polypropylene
47Hz-20kHz +/- 3dB
89dB
8-ohms
15-120 watts RMS/Channel

Surrounds
Input Impedance: 8 Ohm
Recommended Amplifier Power: 15 - 80 Watt
Sensitivity: 90 dB

I'm in the process of building my own center and fronts. Still researching what to do but that is another topic for another day. Basically I need a good quality amp that will last me many years.

I'm leaning towards the Outlaw, but the price of the Emo is very attractive.
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post #16 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 05:37 PM
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An Outlaw 7125 showed up at my door a few days ago. The build quality is impressive. I haven't hooked it up yet b/c I've just started to put together my home theater. I bought a B-stock unit for $849 and I can't tell that it's not brand new. I think a unit like this is not too far from Emo pricing.

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post #17 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSDTrainer View Post

See now if you buy Outlaw you are putting Americans to work but if you buy an Emo you are putting a small Chinese child to work. Huge dilemma

Nothing wrong withing a child to work at a young age. If they save they can avoid educational loans and finish college out of debt.
If you buy Emo you are still contributing to the American chain required to get the product to the consumer. There is US transportation, real estate, taxes, etc.

After researching seems the Outlaw is assembled in USA with foreign parts.

No matter what you buy today it usually has foreign finger prints of some kind.
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post #18 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 07:15 PM
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^^^

yea, those child factory workers in china are just socking it away big time for college...

c'mon... i know you like emo, but that's a REAL reach there...

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post #19 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 08:04 PM
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I believe the 300 and 200 watt versions are made in California by ATI, smaller versions are made elsewhere.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #20 of 29 Old 01-11-2012, 08:44 PM
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I bought a xpa 5 and i couLdnt justify spending more for the same wattage as the emotiva. Quality is very good so far, too me all amps with equal wattage sound the same.

I dont like all of emotivas warranty procedures though, they should pay all the shipping
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post #21 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burts View Post

I bought a xpa 5 and i couLdnt justify spending more for the same wattage as the emotiva. Quality is very good so far, too me all amps with equal wattage sound the same.

I dont like all of emotivas warranty procedures though, they should pay all the shipping


I have no dog in this hunt. But, in the interest of honestly & objectively comparing the 2 products, I'll post this info. Set aside the China vs US made argument, here's what your extra $800 buys you with the Outlaw/ATI:

Power transister output devices per channel:
Outlaw 7500 - 12
Emotiva XPA5 - 6

Total Capacitor Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 150,000 mf
Emotiva XPA5 - 60,000 mf

Power Transformer (Power Supply) Capacity:
Outlaw 7500 - 2 X 1.6 kVA (3200 kVA) torroidal with independent windings per channel so acts more like monoblocks
Emotiva XPA5 - 1 X 1.2 kVA

"In an independent review the 7500 was bench tested to 240wpc all channels simultaneously driven at Outlaws .03% rated THD at an 8ohm load."

You don't get something for nothing applies

Is the Emotiva a good value?
- Depending on one's needs, yes it can be.

Is it equal in max performance to amps like Outlaw 7500, Parasound A51, etc?
- No

Double the output devices means less likely to blow fuse, overheat, blow power transistors, and more capable of providing clean output power.

> 2.5 times the total power capacity (both transformer + capacitors) means far more capable of delivering rated power (or more) to all channels driven simultaneously at lower distortion & greater S/N ratio.

There is NO comparison...the Outlaw is in a completely different league than the Emotiva & should be compared to $3000-4500 competitive amps like Parasound. If the XPA5 is "worth" $800, the Outlaw is very much worth $1600.

For my money, I'd buy the Outlaw or the ATI equivalent in a nano-second over the budget & less capable Emotiva.

Time for the Emo fanboys to start posting their glowing accolades

I have nothing against Emotiva, in fact I'd seriously consider their XPA1 & XPA2. But I don't kid myself that the XPA5 can do the same job with the same transformer as the monoblock & 2 channel versions plus handicapped with far less capacitance on tap.

Steve
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post #22 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 06:39 AM
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Great comparison post ss9001. I'm a proud owner of an Emo LPA-1, which has worked very well for my 5 channel needs to date, driving my old B&W Matrix 804's and P6's without batting an eyelash, but if I had the $2K and needed to replace it, based on your info I would probably go with the Outlaw.

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post #23 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 07:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

Great comparison post ss9001. I'm a proud owner of an Emo LPA-1, which has worked very well for my 5 channel needs to date, driving my old B&W Matrix 804's and P6's without batting an eyelash, but if I had the $2K and needed to replace it, based on your info I would probably go with the Outlaw.

I agree, great comparison post. And my original post was tongue in cheek, didnt mean to start a trade debate LOL
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post #24 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


Time for the Emo fanboys to start posting their glowing accolades

I have nothing against Emotiva, in fact I'd seriously consider their XPA1 & XPA2. But I don't kid myself that the XPA5 can do the same job with the same transformer as the monoblock & 2 channel versions plus handicapped with far less capacitance on tap.

I have three Emo amps and I am not disposed to replace them so I certainly am not trying to bash Emotiva. I also don't believe that all Chinese products use child labor in their manufacture, but I would favor US manufacturers if the product was affordable for me. The Outlaw is clearly superior in its construction and while that's not needed by me at the moment I'd probably get an Outlaw to replace any of my amps if it failed AND if I have the money. There are intangibles that figure into my preferences and one of those is the desire to support labor in this country and not support the labor practices in China.
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post #25 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 07:17 AM
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I really love those comparisons, as if the technical specs just tell everything
If one would have gone this all the way in the past, he would have ended up with some lovely speced equipment, "sounding" probably so lala...
And the Outlaw is quite a bit more expensive too... $1.599 to $899
A much more reasonible comparison in terms of pricing rather would be the pairing of an XPA-3 plus XPA-2 for a sum of $1.498 to the Outlaw 7500 at $ 1.599 (special offer).
Take those technical specs and the comparison would be much more relevant (and fair) in terms of specs too:
2x transformers at a combined wattage of 2.05 kW, combined capacitance of 105.000 µF etc.

...but still no statement about its sound so...

PS.: Many US companies use Asian (Chinese, Indonesian, Malayan...) companies as an extended workbench, sometimes for the whole units or just for component /subassembly manufacture. This makes it pretty nontransparent to state with certainty "Made in the US"...
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post #26 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

I really love those comparisons, as if the technical specs just tell everything

Not everything but something.
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post #27 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Not everything but something.

bingo
plus we all know all amps sound the same, anyway

Ha! I knew a poster would show up who couldn't just accept the specs for what they are
Thanks for your reply, Theresa - you clearly see the logic & since you own Emotiva, that's says a lot.
Refreshing to see other objective people out there who can honestly appraise their own gear.

I've learned in several threads re Emotiva how the avid supporters react so gurkey's post is no surprise.

and to gurkey -

sure you add a XPA3 + XPA2 but now you have 2 boxes, 2 power cords, 2-12 V triggers, 2 outlets and STILL can't quite equal the Outlaw

Plus I thought the objective in getting a multichannel amp was to get all the channels you want in 1 box Otherwise, why not get 5 monoblocks & be done with it. Outlaw makes some budget 200 watters that will cost no more than your XPA2 and XPA3

interesting how people will go to great lengths to defend the Chosen One and come up with all kinds of scenarios to do so

and I never said one shouldn't get the Emotiva. I said the XPA5 cannot equal the maximum performance of the other amp.

IF one looks carefully at what's in the 2 products, you get over 2X the power supply and transistors for 2 times the price. On an equal basis, both have the same "equivalent" cost vs. parts/construction/performance price. $1600 buys you the same power supply capability for both companies so Emotiva provides no discounted value in this comparison.

If someone only had to spend $800, that's a different story. Then the Emo would be the value it's touted to be because the buyer's budget now is the primary decider & has the final say. But if I decided to spend a $2K budget, the choice is clear which one is the amp with more balls.

Steve
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post #28 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 08:45 AM
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Yup. This thread's headed in the direction I thought it would go...

"Exit, stage left."

Good luck with whatever you decide OP.

Please don't confront me with my failures, I'm aware of them. - Greg Allman
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post #29 of 29 Old 01-12-2012, 08:49 AM
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enough

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